A quick word on Torchlight 2 vs. Diablo 3

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big_aug

2[H]4U
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I put probably close to 1000 hours into Diablo 3 HC mode. I sold my account with arguably the best barb in the world at the time (600 hours played on him). I just picked up TL2 in the Steam sale.

It hit me when I was level 12 having not spent a single skill point and minimal stat points (only enough to use a few pieces of gear I found). Blizzard actually got the skill and stat system right with Diablo 3. The old skill/stat point system feels completely dated and unnecessary now. I was never a supporter of Blizzard's system even when I played the game. I just dealt with it. I finally see the light.

I should not have to read and research on the internet to play my character lvl 1-12 without the fear of ruining him in the long run. The old method (without respecs) is just bad.
 
No No No...

Re-rolling your character because you messed up was fun in D2, don't you remember.
 
Ew. D3 skill system sucks.

Because of that system, you literally see people just copy and paste all over. Much harder to do that when you can't clear your skills as easily. Not taht it matters, since you can put in a respec, but what ever.
 
Serpent said:
Ew. D3 skill system sucks.

Because of that system, you literally see people just copy and paste all over. Much harder to do that when you can't clear your skills as easily. Not taht it matters, since you can put in a respec, but what ever.
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No, it's not as easy. It forces you to make a completely new character just so you can copy and paste.

It makes no sense whatsoever.
 
You can download a mod and change your skill points. They have them on their official forums. Some people like making hardcore choices and that is part of Torchlight's fan base. They want to reroll characters for different specs. So the developers allow people to mod their game so that those that want to respec can do so also. If they included respecs in the base game then everyone would expect their friends to play one spec only as it would be "optimal". Since zero respecs is the baseline, you can't expect people to respec for perfect stats. Thus both the respec and don't respec camps win while playing Torchlight II.
 
cageymaru said:
You can download a mod and change your skill points. They have them on their official forums.
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Yea, I ended up doing that.

I'm just saying - it finally clicked for me. The skill point system is really archaic.
 
LeninGHOLA said:
No, it isn't. You just don't like it anymore.
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The only issue is lack of quick and easy respecs.

When it's permanent, I spend more time worrying about where my skill points will go than I do enjoying the game.

It is archaic.
 
big_aug said:
The only issue is lack of quick and easy respecs.

When it's permanent, I spend more time worrying about where my skill points will go than I do enjoying the game.

It is archaic.
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Building a character in an RPG is archaic? Like I said, you just don't like it anymore. It's not anyone's fault you don't like having to think for a few minutes how to play a game.
 
big_aug said:
The only issue is lack of quick and easy respecs.

When it's permanent, I spend more time worrying about where my skill points will go than I do enjoying the game.

It is archaic.
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Your problem is that you think D3 has a skill system.
 
Yeah it seems like all you want is a game where you pull a slot machine lever and get loot. That is basically what D3 ended up being. I can see why a lot of people like it though. There's a whole different aspect to an arpg other than face rolling everything with 0 challenge and collecting free loot on a guided path.
 
Although D3 was disappointing for me, I do not think the skill/rune system was the problem, it actually is pretty good (even better if they continue to balance the skills/runes). So, I was disappointed with D3, and really looking forward to TL2, but after playing it a while, I really didn't like it. The skills/builds were just really boring for me. Everything else about the game was pretty decent, but if the skills/builds are boring, it's not going to work out. I still think it was a good game, just not for me.

That said, the D3 skill system (and D3 in general) could have been sooo much better if the loot was more interesting and varied, and affected different skills in different ways. The loot sucks so much in that game.
 
The problem I had with D3's skill/rune setup is that even with those trillions of potential build combos there were only 2-3 builds per class that weren't awful and usually there was only 1 build per class that was clearly superior.

Classes were really over balanced too. If I played a barb or a wiz or a monk it felt like the same class except with slightly different moves and different graphics for the spell animations. For the most part all 3 classes required obtaining exactly the same gear except for the primary stats. This is from a HC perspective where survivability was a must.

Playing a sorc, zon or barb in D2 felt like 3 totally different classes who acceled at different tasks. This will never happen in D3 because every class is designed to do everything just as well as every other class. If that recipe is just slightly different then everyone cries for nerfs.
 
big_aug said:
Yea, I ended up doing that.

I'm just saying - it finally clicked for me. The skill point system is really archaic.
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Not bashing you as what you like is what you like. But you have to remember that some of us grew up experimenting with things and that is our makeup. I want to drop some points into dexterity on my mage to see how it works out. Just like when I was a kid and wrapped some wire around a screwdriver and plugged it into a wall socket to make a bigger magnet than what was in my science book. Doing both was fun to me. :)

Permanent choices define us in real life and we like having them in games too. You will find that Torchlight II rewards you for experimenting with some dexterity on your mage by allowing you to meet conditions to wear gear that is too high of a level for you. They do this with all the gear and stats. And picking the wrong skills isn't so bad as different trees compliment each other many times.

When they don't it's obvious stuff like "This skill requires 2hnd weapon and this requires a shield." Of course you know that you can't combine those as you can't have a shield and a 2hnd weapon. But for example the frost tree and electric damage tree have skills that require the opposite tree to be optimal. And that's very cool! So it requires some thought and planning to figure out your character as even equipping some weapons gives you bonuses within the skill trees.

Personally I like the system, but I realize that some people want instant gratification. They want to jump in and just run the dungeon without having to think about what to spec or wear. That is perfectly fine to want to play games like that. Absolutely nothing wrong with just wanting to kill more mobs and loot as that's very good mindless fun also. :)

Then there are those of us that want games where we have to figure out which mob is really kicking my ass so I can set it as first priority, because if it doesn't die fast then I'm going to die. That's more like what the Torchlight II crowd is looking for. Just making mobs do more damage to challenge you is boring to the developers. You know what game did approach and took lots of flack for it. They want you to analyze situations and think about your choices. And if you want to experiment reward you for doing so.

Of course they toss in lots of filler mobs so you can get gratification from just wiping out mobs as that is extremely fun also. But the game is much more deeper than that superficial shell. I do find that a lot of people dismiss it because of the cartoon graphics and assume that there isn't depth to the game. Those who make that assumption don't know what they are missing and Torchlight 2 is one of the top games from 2012 when playing in a group. The light show is ridiculous when 6 players are dpsing their hearts out!

And with the recent Steam sale getting the game for 6 people is less than buying a copy of Diablo 3. That's pretty epic!
 
Shush you guys. All I could think of last time I was playing Baldur's Gate 2 was, "Why can't my 15th level Fighter respec into a Druid!?!"

I was so mad I uninstalled my computer and farted myself to sleep.
 
cageymaru said:
Not bashing you as what you like is what you like. But you have to remember that some of us grew up experimenting with things and that is our makeup. I want to drop some points into dexterity on my mage to see how it works out. Just like when I was a kid and wrapped some wire around a screwdriver and plugged it into a wall socket to make a bigger magnet than what was in my science book. Doing both was fun to me. :)

Permanent choices define us in real life and we like having them in games too. You will find that Torchlight II rewards you for experimenting with some dexterity on your mage by allowing you to meet conditions to wear gear that is too high of a level for you. They do this with all the gear and stats. And picking the wrong skills isn't so bad as different trees compliment each other many times.

When they don't it's obvious stuff like "This skill requires 2hnd weapon and this requires a shield." Of course you know that you can't combine those as you can't have a shield and a 2hnd weapon. But for example the frost tree and electric damage tree have skills that require the opposite tree to be optimal. And that's very cool! So it requires some thought and planning to figure out your character as even equipping some weapons gives you bonuses within the skill trees.

Personally I like the system, but I realize that some people want instant gratification. They want to jump in and just run the dungeon without having to think about what to spec or wear. That is perfectly fine to want to play games like that. Absolutely nothing wrong with just wanting to kill more mobs and loot as that's very good mindless fun also. :)
Then there are those of us that want games where we have to figure out which mob is really kicking my ass so I can set it as first priority, because if it doesn't die fast then I'm going to die. That's more like what the Torchlight II crowd is looking for. Just making mobs do more damage to challenge you is boring to the developers. You know what game did approach and took lots of flack for it. They want you to analyze situations and think about your choices. And if you want to experiment reward you for doing so.

Of course they toss in lots of filler mobs so you can get gratification from just wiping out mobs as that is extremely fun also. But the game is much more deeper than that superficial shell. I do find that a lot of people dismiss it because of the cartoon graphics and assume that there isn't depth to the game. Those who make that assumption don't know what they are missing and Torchlight 2 is one of the top games from 2012 when playing in a group. The light show is ridiculous when 6 players are dpsing their hearts out!

And with the recent Steam sale getting the game for 6 people is less than buying a copy of Diablo 3. That's pretty epic!
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When people say things like this, it really bugs me.

I'm not about instant gratification. I love games that are challenging, make me think, etc. Here's the thing: I want to play the game. I don't want to save every single skill and stat point until I figure out which skill/stats work best. All the while I will be thinking in the back of my mind I'm thinking I'm going to have to remake a character if I put a point somewhere it shouldn't go. The permanent skill point allocation system is completely unnecessary. There is no reason for it.

And here it comes. I'm going to make Blizzard's argument. If I have to permanently allocate points, I'm going to find out what's the most effective and that's what I'm going to choose. I'm not going to experiment. Free respecing allows me to try whatever I want. If I want to try new skills, I should not have to make a completely new character and go through the same leveling process just to put my points somewhere else. It makes no sense whatsoever. If you want to say you beat the game and never respecced a single time, good for you. You can do that by choosing not to respec.
 
big_aug said:
When people say things like this, it really bugs me.

I'm not about instant gratification. I love games that are challenging, make me think, etc. Here's the thing: I want to play the game. I don't want to save every single skill and stat point until I figure out which skill/stats work best. All the while I will be thinking in the back of my mind I'm thinking I'm going to have to remake a character if I put a point somewhere it shouldn't go. The permanent skill point allocation system is completely unnecessary. There is no reason for it.

And here it comes. I'm going to make Blizzard's argument. If I have to permanently allocate points, I'm going to find out what's the most effective and that's what I'm going to choose. I'm not going to experiment. Free respecing allows me to try whatever I want. If I want to try new skills, I should not have to make a completely new character and go through the same leveling process just to put my points somewhere else. It makes no sense whatsoever. If you want to say you beat the game and never respecced a single time, good for you. You can do that by choosing not to respec.
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Sounds like Torchlight 2 is just too hard for you. Stick to Diablo 3.
 
krakerman said:
Sounds like Torchlight 2 is just too hard for you. Stick to Diablo 3.
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:rolleyes:

Actually, it's pretty easy on Veteran. I just hold down my right mouse button and everything dies. Just like every other ARPG ever made.
 
I prefer the approach GGG took in Path of Exile:

- FF7-style skill gems that get socketed into gear
- massive Passive Skill Tree that is semi-permanent that you sink skill points into to develop your character (some quests grant "respec points" and there is an in-game item that can be found or traded for that will grant a respec point).

As for Blizzard getting it right with D3, well...the loot isn't interesting and for the most part the skills aren't really interesting; three cheers for progress?
 
big_aug said:
When people say things like this, it really bugs me.

I'm not about instant gratification. I love games that are challenging, make me think, etc. Here's the thing: I want to play the game. I don't want to save every single skill and stat point until I figure out which skill/stats work best. All the while I will be thinking in the back of my mind I'm thinking I'm going to have to remake a character if I put a point somewhere it shouldn't go. The permanent skill point allocation system is completely unnecessary. There is no reason for it.

And here it comes. I'm going to make Blizzard's argument. If I have to permanently allocate points, I'm going to find out what's the most effective and that's what I'm going to choose. I'm not going to experiment. Free respecing allows me to try whatever I want. If I want to try new skills, I should not have to make a completely new character and go through the same leveling process just to put my points somewhere else. It makes no sense whatsoever. If you want to say you beat the game and never respecced a single time, good for you. You can do that by choosing not to respec.
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Think you're over thinking the stat points. Dying in Torchlight II is not related to having perfect stat allocations. Every stat benefits every character in some way. So while you don't want to grab a ton of "off stats" instead of your bread and butter "main stat" having those doesn't hurt you. If you die it is because you didn't recognize the pattern in the boss fight. When the boss raised his fist for 3 seconds and you didn't move trying to get one more spell off, that got you killed. Then it's time to run back with your pride between your legs as the game absolutely punishes you for not paying attention. Like the old Zelda games used to do.

The game is 90% about your ability to recognize patterns and learning the proper way to avoid getting surrounded by mobs as even the lowest mob will murder you if enough are hitting you at once. The stat point choices that you "mistakenly" made at low level before you figured out what you wanted, will still help you get that dodge when you mess up or have to eat some damage and you mitigate part of it. So there is no "wrong" way to spec in Torchlight 2. The game isn't all about perfect dps all the time.

There also isn't really an optimal way of speccing either as everything you do will help you in the long run. Torchlight 2 doesn't require a Wiki to explain how to not stand in the fire as that should be your biggest concern rather than did that point in strength drop my dps by 0.03% if I had spent it elsewhere.


And on the subject of having respecs in the base game is bad because it makes everyone feel obligated to having to respec. It would be like World of Warcraft where people would kick you out of a group if you placed one point differently from where Elitist Jerks forums said so. That shit wasn't fun at all especially when you've been killing a boss weekly and suddenly some website says you're a "baddie" because you spent a point to avoid death instead of 0.03% more damage.

Torchlight II avoids all of that drama by not having respecs in the base game. If you want to mod the game to do so it's at your own discretion. Nobody can pressure you into downloading mods to play Torchlight II in a public group. Thus you'll notice that people in Torchlight II don't fuss about what spec you are. If anything if they see you doing well they will ask you to be on their friend's list. Nobody is going to look at your stat allocation and ask you to be friends in Torchlight II.

Now be honest. If you were playing with a guy who was doing whirlwind Barb, and he suddenly started using a move that wasn't on the prescribed optimal list, you'd joke on him and tell him that he's a noob. In Torchlight II I'd be asking him how did he think of that sick combo? Is it really fun and what gear are you looking for to support it? Different mentalities within the same genre of games. :)
 
cageymaru said:
Think you're over thinking the stat points. Dying in Torchlight II is not related to having perfect stat allocations. Every stat benefits every character in some way. So while you don't want to grab a ton of "off stats" instead of your bread and butter "main stat" having those doesn't hurt you. If you die it is because you didn't recognize the pattern in the boss fight. When the boss raised his fist for 3 seconds and you didn't move trying to get one more spell off, that got you killed. Then it's time to run back with your pride between your legs as the game absolutely punishes you for not paying attention. Like the old Zelda games used to do.

The game is 90% about your ability to recognize patterns and learning the proper way to avoid getting surrounded by mobs as even the lowest mob will murder you if enough are hitting you at once. The stat point choices that you "mistakenly" made at low level before you figured out what you wanted, will still help you get that dodge when you mess up or have to eat some damage and you mitigate part of it. So there is no "wrong" way to spec in Torchlight 2. The game isn't all about perfect dps all the time.

There also isn't really an optimal way of speccing either as everything you do will help you in the long run. Torchlight 2 doesn't require a Wiki to explain how to not stand in the fire as that should be your biggest concern rather than did that point in strength drop my dps by 0.03% if I had spent it elsewhere.


And on the subject of having respecs in the base game is bad because it makes everyone feel obligated to having to respec. It would be like World of Warcraft where people would kick you out of a group if you placed one point differently from where Elitist Jerks forums said so. That shit wasn't fun at all especially when you've been killing a boss weekly and suddenly some website says you're a "baddie" because you spent a point to avoid death instead of 0.03% more damage.

Torchlight II avoids all of that drama by not having respecs in the base game. If you want to mod the game to do so it's at your own discretion. Nobody can pressure you into downloading mods to play Torchlight II in a public group. Thus you'll notice that people in Torchlight II don't fuss about what spec you are. If anything if they see you doing well they will ask you to be on their friend's list. Nobody is going to look at your stat allocation and ask you to be friends in Torchlight II.

Now be honest. If you were playing with a guy who was doing whirlwind Barb, and he suddenly started using a move that wasn't on the prescribed optimal list, you'd joke on him and tell him that he's a noob. In Torchlight II I'd be asking him how did he think of that sick combo? Is it really fun and what gear are you looking for to support it? Different mentalities within the same genre of games. :)
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Reading a bit much into what I said I think. This has nothing to do with difficulty at all. This is simply about the skill system. It's not even about the skills themselves. Being stuck with what you choose is just a poor system for these types of games. It's much more enjoyable to be able to swap skills and use whatever combination you want.

Blizzard got it right with the ability to use any skills you want and swap whenever you want. They just didn't make enough of the skills really viable. Like I said, I was never in favor of the way they did it when I played the game. It didn't hit me until I went back to the old perma skill point system in TL2. It's just less fun, plain and simple. I'd have to start over every time I want to try new things. To that I say, "No thanks."

And don't get me wrong. I think TL2 is a really fun game. I just enjoy the way the skills work a heck of a lot less.
 
*sigh*

They might as well, just don't let you choose any skills and give it all to you then. Like say..... an action game! Not only will you not be forced to put points into skills, you'll never have to change out skills either! OMG!

Sides, they already took out attribute distribution, might as well.
 
big_aug said:
I put probably close to 1000 hours into Diablo 3 HC mode. I sold my account with arguably the best barb in the world at the time (600 hours played on him). I just picked up TL2 in the Steam sale.

It hit me when I was level 12 having not spent a single skill point and minimal stat points (only enough to use a few pieces of gear I found). Blizzard actually got the skill and stat system right with Diablo 3. The old skill/stat point system feels completely dated and unnecessary now. I was never a supporter of Blizzard's system even when I played the game. I just dealt with it. I finally see the light.

I should not have to read and research on the internet to play my character lvl 1-12 without the fear of ruining him in the long run. The old method (without respecs) is just bad.
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You really love to stroke your epeen don't you?

big_aug said:
When people say things like this, it really bugs me.

I'm not about instant gratification. I love games that are challenging, make me think, etc. Here's the thing: I want to play the game. I don't want to save every single skill and stat point until I figure out which skill/stats work best. All the while I will be thinking in the back of my mind I'm thinking I'm going to have to remake a character if I put a point somewhere it shouldn't go. The permanent skill point allocation system is completely unnecessary. There is no reason for it.

And here it comes. I'm going to make Blizzard's argument. If I have to permanently allocate points, I'm going to find out what's the most effective and that's what I'm going to choose. I'm not going to experiment. Free respecing allows me to try whatever I want. If I want to try new skills, I should not have to make a completely new character and go through the same leveling process just to put my points somewhere else. It makes no sense whatsoever. If you want to say you beat the game and never respecced a single time, good for you. You can do that by choosing not to respec.
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So to go along with this, I think being hurt in a game is too permanent and archaic, why cant we decide when we want to get hurt in every game? I mean games are meant to be played and you cant "play" while you load your last save.
 
Well the thing is Big_Aug you're kinda not seeing an important point. In D3 you could spec whatever you wanted on the fly. It felt great at first until the first fan website placed a decent spec upon it with a video showing it off. At that time if you didn't spec exactly what Superman in the video was specced, then you were a noob. A dummy. A person too lazy to Google to learn his class.

I took a break from D3 soon after the last ban wave. Up to that point when I played public groups all I got was stares as soon as I started dpsing on my Witch Doctor. If I didn't use the prescribed moves that a fan website said use people would start leaving my group right and left. Wasn't uncommon to see 20 people jump in and out of my public group.

I had one audacious fool actually ask me before we pulled the first mob what offhand graphic was that. After taking 30 secs of my time to explain what it was and this cool spec I was trying, the entire group left because they said I would be "holding the group back." They said that Witch Doctors were terrible as it was and me not speccing optimally was going to make them carrying me harder.

Now of course when I got into groups that didn't really care, I could buff myself from 130k dps to 260k dps, heal the entire group continously, and murder the entire instance by aoeing everything down. Besides the Whirlwind Barbs nothing could really keep up. But lots of people weren't going to give me that chance because they wanted me to spec a certain way and wear certain gear.

That's why I love games like Torchlight II where what you pick is what you picked. If you get the urge to try something different then it's cool; grab a mod and have fun. The developers encourage it. Everyone wins in the end.
 
cageymaru said:
Well the thing is Big_Aug you're kinda not seeing an important point. In D3 you could spec whatever you wanted on the fly. It felt great at first until the first fan website placed a decent spec upon it with a video showing it off. At that time if you didn't spec exactly what Superman in the video was specced, then you were a noob. A dummy. A person too lazy to Google to learn his class.

<snip>

That's why I love games like Torchlight II where what you pick is what you picked. If you get the urge to try something different then it's cool; grab a mod and have fun. The developers encourage it. Everyone wins in the end.
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QFT.
You nailed exactly why I gave up on D3. I grew tired of everyone telling me how I should play my character according to the website. I play characters to have fun and part of that is trying different things for myself, not what others say it should.

Now in Torchlight II I find myself trying characters with different skills and should I choose poorly then I just roll another. The fun for me is weighing my choices and seeing how it works out. Respeccing to me cheapens the game: consequence for your actions (or choices) is eliminated by respeccing. My DPS isn't up to snuff? Wait, I'll just do a quick respec. Some of the challenge for me comes from seeing what works and doesn't, then trying to push your strategies to make up for the shortcomings.

Plus another failing to me is the real money auction house in D3, just another "pay to win" gimmick that simply rewards those who spend the most cash instead of those who play with skill. All these "pay to win" type games are a sad development in today's games.
 
RW2112 said:
QFT.
You nailed exactly why I gave up on D3. I grew tired of everyone telling me how I should play my character according to the website. I play characters to have fun and part of that is trying different things for myself, not what others say it should.

Now in Torchlight II I find myself trying characters with different skills and should I choose poorly then I just roll another. The fun for me is weighing my choices and seeing how it works out. Respeccing to me cheapens the game: consequence for your actions (or choices) is eliminated by respeccing. My DPS isn't up to snuff? Wait, I'll just do a quick respec. Some of the challenge for me comes from seeing what works and doesn't, then trying to push your strategies to make up for the shortcomings.

Plus another failing to me is the real money auction house in D3, just another "pay to win" gimmick that simply rewards those who spend the most cash instead of those who play with skill. All these "pay to win" type games are a sad development in today's games.
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I took agree I have not played d3 for a while just because with everypatch your character becomes useless and then you wait to see what to do... haha
 
Honestly, the loot is really what seems to be wrong with Diablo 3. Almost everybody agrees that playing up to inferno was fun, but the end game is what killed the experience.

For me, I know that the lack of uniques, gear being too diverse in bad ways ended up making farming a really crappy experience as I felt like I was sinking endless hours into something without anything to show for my efforts.
 
Tekara said:
Honestly, the loot is really what seems to be wrong with Diablo 3. Almost everybody agrees that playing up to inferno was fun, but the end game is what killed the experience.

For me, I know that the lack of uniques, gear being too diverse in bad ways ended up making farming a really crappy experience as I felt like I was sinking endless hours into something without anything to show for my efforts.
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Definitely agree on the loot factor. I haven't played D3 since about 2 months after it was released so I don't know how much they've improved the loot drop rate.

I heard the drop rate was increased for high level but I found the unique drop rate to be lacking throughout the entire game.

I think the skill system in T2 and D3 both have their pros and cons. For me, I simply get a more enjoyable experience playing T2.
 
It's how you find the loot too that's a serious problem.

Loot is on the AH. If you buy your loot from the AH then you're going to deck yourself out which means anything you find is going to be garbage.

This is a really nasty pattern because most people will use the AH while leveling to 60, especially on HC. It makes basically every single drop you find worthless until the end game because you already have pretty good stuff from the AH.

Then when you hit 60, you have like a 0.00000000000001% chance to find something really good as a drop but a 99.99999% chance to find something pretty good on the AH.
 
Torchlight 2 was awesome as hell for exactly 34 hours. Then I realized it stopped scaling, the random levels weren't really very random at all, the classes weren't balanced, the harder the game difficulty level the less loot and money drops (WTF?!), and I'd already seen 90% of the loot in the game.

WHAT THE FUCK KIND OF DIABLO CLONE WITHERS AT 35 HOURS!? :mad:

Titan Quest Immortal Throne is 5 times the game Torchlight 2 is, and it has 10 times the amount of loot and far more classes and class balance.
 
requiem99 said:
Torchlight 2 was awesome as hell for exactly 34 hours. Then I realized it stopped scaling, the random levels weren't really very random at all, the classes weren't balanced, the harder the game difficulty level the less loot and money drops (WTF?!), and I'd already seen 90% of the loot in the game.

WHAT THE FUCK KIND OF DIABLO CLONE WITHERS AT 35 HOURS!? :mad:

Titan Quest Immortal Throne is 5 times the game Torchlight 2 is, and it has 10 times the amount of loot and far more classes and class balance.
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This was to be expected, really. Torchlight 1 was about a 15 hour game. TL1 and TL2 are casual aRPG's. I think they are fun, but they aren't meant to replace the hardcore style D2 presented.

I agree that Titan Quest is quite a bit better as far as the hardcore elements go. I keep it installed even today.
 
When it comes to skill trees, I think both D3 and TL2 should be closer to how I enjoy BL2's skill tree: simple, but lots of diversity. The trees are very different, and for the most part, the build compliments the player's skill and preferences. Both D3 and TL2 the abilities drive the effectiveness of the player, where it should be the other way around. For example, as zero, I love playing as a sniper. Keeping my distance, doing high damage from range, lining up multiple enemies for massive damage, but my ammo is very limited and I am very squishy close up. I've been able to play the entire game this way and enjoy it, not relying on epic gear or perfect builds. Other people prefer melee Zero, where certain weapons keep health regen high. I saw a melee Zero solo teramorphus, blew my mind. On the other hand, the only thing that determines if I'm "good" in Diablo3 as a CM is if my crit and APOC is high enough.

The whole reason I like the skill/rune/respec system of D3 was that it had the potential of being that way: you played around until you found a build that best fits your play style (cc, glass cannon, knockback, evasion, etc). Sadly D3 is very far from that dream: all I hear of is WW as barbs, Archon or CM builds for wizard, etc. Everyone gravitated to certain builds. This can be fixed in the future, but it will take a lot of passthroughs and experimentation to allow for a viable diversity.


On the other hand, with TL2, the skills didnt seem to matter. Like Aug said, you could go very far without putting a single point into a stat or ability. That means that while you can do whatever you wanted, it doesnt feel significant since you can still get by with out putting points into anything. With that, there's no need for a perfect build since a "no build" is viable.

BL2 has its issues too, and I know its almost apples to oranges with FPSRPG and ARPG comparisons, but I still think a simpler skill tree where there are noticeable differences in each tree and builds compliment the player skill (not determine it) is a better way to go.
 
Breath_of_the_Dying said:
On the other hand, with TL2, the skills didnt seem to matter... it doesnt feel significant since you can still get by with out putting points into anything. With that, there's no need for a perfect build since a "no build" is viable.
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Ain't that the truth.
 
big_aug said:
I put probably close to 1000 hours into Diablo 3 HC mode. I sold my account with arguably the best barb in the world at the time (600 hours played on him). I just picked up TL2 in the Steam sale.

It hit me when I was level 12 having not spent a single skill point and minimal stat points (only enough to use a few pieces of gear I found). Blizzard actually got the skill and stat system right with Diablo 3. The old skill/stat point system feels completely dated and unnecessary now. I was never a supporter of Blizzard's system even when I played the game. I just dealt with it. I finally see the light.

I should not have to read and research on the internet to play my character lvl 1-12 without the fear of ruining him in the long run. The old method (without respecs) is just bad.
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Seems to me you are looking for more of an action game than an RPG. Customization is always good. Right now, every character in D3 is the same except for gear. Lack of a skill tree along with a few other things is what caused D3 to lose a huge amount of people.
 
I saw the light you guys. Diablo 4 should be a movie! Then we don't have to be bothered pressing any buttons. I mean why figure out how to play a game? Everyone is just reading the information on the screen anyway, ergo having more options is definitely worse.

*head explodes*
 
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