A Physicist Has Worked Out The Math That Makes 'Paradox-Free' Time Travel Plausible

erek

Supreme [H]ardness
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"The new research smooths out the problem with another hypothesis, that time travel is possible but that time travellers would be restricted in what they did, to stop them creating a paradox. In this model, time travellers have the freedom to do whatever they want, but paradoxes are not possible.

While the numbers might work out, actually bending space and time to get into the past remains elusive – the time machines that scientists have devised so far are so high-concept that for they currently only exist as calculations on a page.


We might get there one day – Stephen Hawking certainly thought it was possible – and if we do then this new research suggests we would be free to do whatever we wanted to the world in the past: it would readjust itself accordingly.

"Try as you might to create a paradox, the events will always adjust themselves, to avoid any inconsistency," says Costa. "The range of mathematical processes we discovered show that time travel with free will is logically possible in our universe without any paradox."

The research has been published in Classical and Quantum Gravity."


https://www.sciencealert.com/a-phys...that-makes-paradox-free-time-travel-plausible
 

Aegir

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The spatial-void between present and past is what has been historically referred to as "Hell."

That is why many ancient religions would view Hell-like afterlives as a place of regret.

Time spent in the past is hell, and the journey there is worse.

Do not try to go into the past. You will not survive the trip, and if somehow you do, you will eternally regret it.

Focus on the present and future. That is where us mortals can influence the destiny of reality.
 

clockdogg

[H]ard|Gawd
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"The range of mathematical processes we discovered show that time travel with free will is logically possible in our universe without any paradox."

Explain how this 'free will' thing is actually as free as advertised. Then we'll see if it can be implemented retro-actively.
 

Aegir

Gawd
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Messages
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"The range of mathematical processes we discovered show that time travel with free will is logically possible in our universe without any paradox."

Explain how this 'free will' thing is actually as free as advertised. Then we'll see if it can be implemented retro-actively.

The dark truth is that "free will" is a false concept.

A chain of cause and effect reach back to the origin of time, space, mass, and reality itself. This enforces hard determinism.
There is no known mechanism for attaining free will due to the existence of cause-and-effect based mechanics.

It can be seen that all proper causes have a proper effect, within chemistry and physics, as well as in life.
Even ideas like quantum observer concepts can likely be traced to mundane cause and effect at its lowest level.

The only way to defy determinism is to have improper causes or improper effects occur.
This is generally called, "magic."
 

T4rd

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Joined
Apr 8, 2009
Messages
18,343
The spatial-void between present and past is what has been historically referred to as "Hell."

That is why many ancient religions would view Hell-like afterlives as a place of regret.

Time spent in the past is hell, and the journey there is worse.

Do not try to go into the past. You will not survive the trip, and if somehow you do, you will eternally regret it.

Focus on the present and future. That is where us mortals can influence the destiny of reality.

Time travelers:

tenor.gif
 
Joined
Nov 18, 2011
Messages
600
The dark truth is that "free will" is a false concept.

A chain of cause and effect reach back to the origin of time, space, mass, and reality itself. This enforces hard determinism.
There is no known mechanism for attaining free will due to the existence of cause-and-effect based mechanics.

It can be seen that all proper causes have a proper effect, within chemistry and physics, as well as in life.
Even ideas like quantum observer concepts can likely be traced to mundane cause and effect at its lowest level.

The only way to defy determinism is to have improper causes or improper effects occur.
This is generally called, "magic."

Quantum Indeterminacy would (like to) (not like to) (might like to) have a word with you. ;)
 

kju1

2[H]4U
Joined
Mar 27, 2002
Messages
3,446
"The new research smooths out the problem with another hypothesis, that time travel is possible but that time travellers would be restricted in what they did, to stop them creating a paradox. In this model, time travellers have the freedom to do whatever they want, but paradoxes are not possible.

While the numbers might work out, actually bending space and time to get into the past remains elusive – the time machines that scientists have devised so far are so high-concept that for they currently only exist as calculations on a page.


We might get there one day – Stephen Hawking certainly thought it was possible – and if we do then this new research suggests we would be free to do whatever we wanted to the world in the past: it would readjust itself accordingly.

"Try as you might to create a paradox, the events will always adjust themselves, to avoid any inconsistency," says Costa. "The range of mathematical processes we discovered show that time travel with free will is logically possible in our universe without any paradox."

The research has been published in Classical and Quantum Gravity."


https://www.sciencealert.com/a-phys...that-makes-paradox-free-time-travel-plausible

Maybe now I can finally get home.
 

Verge

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Messages
6,782
This new model does not require any negative mass exotic material and offers a very simple design.


Mallary's model requires that the center of each car has infinite density. That means they contain objects – called singularities – with an infinite density, temperature and pressure.

The 180 this author does in 6 sentences is insane. This is from second link FYI
 

Aegir

Gawd
Joined
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Messages
562
Quantum Indeterminacy would (like to) (not like to) (might like to) have a word with you. ;)
I'm afraid not.

The influence of the containing system can explain this better than a deviation from cause-and-effect would.
For instance, consider whether the interactions within a single atom would change depending on whether or not that particular atom is in interstellar space, contained in absolute vacuum, versus an atom on Earth, subject to multiple gravitational fields, all of which are in movement at all times, not to mention an incredible amount of radiation from the nearby star.

It is very possible that it is humans that are wrong about this, and that despite the illusion of probability, it is in fact determined by cause-and-effect.

For humans, the cause is unknown. This does not nullify the need for a cause before an effect takes place.
 

Jagger100

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Joined
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Messages
7,633
"The new research smooths out the problem with another hypothesis, that time travel is possible but that time travellers would be restricted in what they did, to stop them creating a paradox. In this model, time travellers have the freedom to do whatever they want, but paradoxes are not possible.

While the numbers might work out, actually bending space and time to get into the past remains elusive – the time machines that scientists have devised so far are so high-concept that for they currently only exist as calculations on a page.


We might get there one day – Stephen Hawking certainly thought it was possible – and if we do then this new research suggests we would be free to do whatever we wanted to the world in the past: it would readjust itself accordingly.

"Try as you might to create a paradox, the events will always adjust themselves, to avoid any inconsistency," says Costa. "The range of mathematical processes we discovered show that time travel with free will is logically possible in our universe without any paradox."

The research has been published in Classical and Quantum Gravity."


https://www.sciencealert.com/a-phys...that-makes-paradox-free-time-travel-plausible
Does this really answer anything. The idea that a paradox is not feasible is how you break the universe if you commit one. How does the universe
 

GoodBoy

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Nov 29, 2004
Messages
1,995
The dark truth is that "free will" is a false concept.

A chain of cause and effect reach back to the origin of time, space, mass, and reality itself. This enforces hard determinism.
There is no known mechanism for attaining free will due to the existence of cause-and-effect based mechanics.

It can be seen that all proper causes have a proper effect, within chemistry and physics, as well as in life.
Even ideas like quantum observer concepts can likely be traced to mundane cause and effect at its lowest level.

The only way to defy determinism is to have improper causes or improper effects occur.
This is generally called, "magic."
You are free to make whatever choices you want.

What you perceive as your past/current/future choices, you have already made those choices. Even though you already made them, they (the future choices) were(are) your choices.
 

Aegir

Gawd
Joined
Apr 15, 2020
Messages
562
Nonsense. Time travel is not possible.
Exactly.

It's possible to speed time up, and even slow it down. It's dependent on perspective and "clockspeed."
But to go back? Impossible. Even if a person contrived some way of doing it, like "using energy equal to the entirety of the universe" or something, that is NOT a REAL idea. It cannot happen, so why should we consider it?

This entire paper is nonsense, written for fun. There is no accurate math that can solve time travel to its actual full root, because it is impossible to do this. You cannot reverse entropy. We can only modify the form of matter and energy by moving entropy from one place to another. Spending energy.

Computer hardware is an example of energy spent to turn something without complexity into something very complex.
But it does not truly reverse entropy. We still build it in the normal direction that time flows.
 
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Messages
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I'm afraid not.

The influence of the containing system can explain this better than a deviation from cause-and-effect would.
For instance, consider whether the interactions within a single atom would change depending on whether or not that particular atom is in interstellar space, contained in absolute vacuum, versus an atom on Earth, subject to multiple gravitational fields, all of which are in movement at all times, not to mention an incredible amount of radiation from the nearby star.

It is very possible that it is humans that are wrong about this, and that despite the illusion of probability, it is in fact determined by cause-and-effect.

For humans, the cause is unknown. This does not nullify the need for a cause before an effect takes place.

“The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you.”
Neil deGrasse Tyson


Between the Dr Who quotes and layman physics you have to know I’m joking about this... ;)
 
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Aegir

Gawd
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Rookie. I can travel backwards in time easily. Of course all of my actions and thoughts run in reverse when I do it.
So you want to perform "contained" time travel?

To create a small zone where everything runs backwards as you feed it energy?
It'd probably cost a lot of energy though.

But imagine a time-goes-backward zone with a computer inside it. How would its logic gates function if the electrons took the reverse path?
It might not work correctly. But if time-reverse-zones were cheap to produce and maintain, it might be worth it in terms of raw computational power per normal minute. It might be able to solve an eternity's worth of calculations in what seems like the past.

But it could only function for as long as it's existed. At a certain point, you'll begin to see it become disassembled, until it's just sand and raw material.

“The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you.”
Neil deGrasse Tyson


Between the Dr Who quotes and layman physics you have to know I’m joking about this... ;)

I think I will defy the common thought here!
I think modern quantum physics is simply wrong.

Let's speed up our perception of time, so that we can quickly travel to the 31st century, and see if any scientists can give us some "good news, everyone!"
 

serpretetsky

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Messages
1,819
So you want to perform "contained" time travel?

To create a small zone where everything runs backwards as you feed it energy?
It'd probably cost a lot of energy though.
Pshh, way easier than that! Run the entire universe in reverse! Easy peasy, it's happening right now. What, you can't tell?
 

clockdogg

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Dec 12, 2007
Messages
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But imagine a time-goes-backward zone with a computer inside it. How would its logic gates function if the electrons took the reverse path?
It might not work correctly. But if time-reverse-zones were cheap to produce and maintain, it might be worth it in terms of raw computational power per normal minute. It might be able to solve an eternity's worth of calculations in what seems like the past.

Sadly, all we can do is imagine that sort of computational power. The scalpers would scoop up all those systems and sell them at a great profit. In the future.
 

Krenum

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17,253
Video card scalpers are jumping back in time to buy the cards, thats why there still isn't any stock.
"Time Scalper"

Could be a cool movie. Hitler sends scalpers back in time to buy graphics cards to mine Bitcoin in an attempt to crash the worlds economy and rise to power again.

Hackerman, could be the guy who sends Kung Fury back to stop them.
 

Aireoth

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Messages
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'Not possible' is the laymans response to anything.

Time doesn't exist.

Time is only a measurement tool created by man.

For instance, you'd be older or younger in regards to "time" depending on which planet you live on in our solar system.

Space/time would disagree, our measurement of time is manmade, yet time does very clearly exist independent of mankind.
 

Krenum

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'Not possible' is the laymans response to anything.



Space/time would disagree, our measurement of time is manmade, yet time does very clearly exist independent of mankind.
Taking mankind out of the equation. How would time exist? Things would just be & wouldn't be.

I suppose animals would have their routines, that could be a measurement of time, but they are just running off of what has been coded into their DNA.
 

Aurelius

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Taking mankind out of the equation. How would time exist? Things would just be & wouldn't be.

I suppose animals would have their routines, that could be a measurement of time, but they are just running off of what has been coded into their DNA.
The very natures of movement, entropy and other machinations of the universe show that time, on a basic level, exists.

Think of the classic relativity example where a person traveling near the speed of light ages much more slowly than someone on Earth. Or, for that matter, repeating processes like the spinning of a neutron star — you can't have regular patterns without time.

You could rightly argue that our definitions of time are arbitrary, and might need to be adjusted as we learn more about the universe. But if there was no time at all, things would just... sit.
 

Krenum

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The very natures of movement, entropy and other machinations of the universe show that time, on a basic level, exists.

Think of the classic relativity example where a person traveling near the speed of light ages much more slowly than someone on Earth. Or, for that matter, repeating processes like the spinning of a neutron star — you can't have regular patterns without time.

You could rightly argue that our definitions of time are arbitrary, and might need to be adjusted as we learn more about the universe. But if there was no time at all, things would just... sit.
You're still holding onto "time" the measuring tool. You have to think that it doesn't exist. Everything would still decompose. Everything would still operate within its boundaries even though nothing is around to measure it. Like it did before mankind ever existed.
 

imsirovic5

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Wouldn't one of the leading quantum theories - many world interpretation (or multiverse) also reduce any paradox. Multiverse theory is an interpretation of quantum mechanics that asserts that the universal wavefunction is objectively real, and that there is no wavefunction collapse. This implies that all possible outcomes of quantum measurements are physically realized in some "world" or universe.

So in other words if you travel back in time, then theoretically a ton of other universes would branch out from your actions (in addition to the ones where you are not present). As I type this there have been near infinite amount of universe splits with countless copies of me. So one of the leading quantum theories already sees no paradox with time travel?
 

Aireoth

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Taking mankind out of the equation. How would time exist? Things would just be & wouldn't be.

I suppose animals would have their routines, that could be a measurement of time, but they are just running off of what has been coded into their DNA.

You are confusing measurement with existence, and inserting way to much human ego.

Time exists, it is intertwined with space like electricity is with magenitism. Our existence does not create these things, we only bear witness to them.
 

Blakestr

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Aug 11, 2004
Messages
1,807
The dark truth is that "free will" is a false concept.

A chain of cause and effect reach back to the origin of time, space, mass, and reality itself. This enforces hard determinism.
There is no known mechanism for attaining free will due to the existence of cause-and-effect based mechanics.

It can be seen that all proper causes have a proper effect, within chemistry and physics, as well as in life.
Even ideas like quantum observer concepts can likely be traced to mundane cause and effect at its lowest level.

The only way to defy determinism is to have improper causes or improper effects occur.
This is generally called, "magic."

Dark is right. It's still unsettling to me to confront this - I got a little into mindfulness meditation, and the more aware you are of the absolute spontaneity of your thoughts, the more you see how little free will you actually have. Even reading this statement, your reaction - if it matches against a pattern that reminds you of some hippie-BS, you are more likely to just reject it out of hand. If it confirms with previous patterns, you'll have an inward nod going, "yep, yep." - once you realize this, how your decisions are based on your values and your values are based on perception, there's infinite regression. You can go back into your childhood and recognize what shaped you.

We make mistakes when we try to do policy without taking this reality into account.
 
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