A motor-specs challenge...

starhawk

[H]F Junkie
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This one's a doozy.

My mother had (a long time ago) a Craftsman drill that looked like this, only with a battery pack that is missing in this picture. These are the 315.###### series.

e5PQihf.jpg


It wasn't super strong but it got stuff done until one day it wouldn't take a charge. I have no idea how they got the batts out of that one, must be a slightly different model -- ours had a non-removable batt pack inside. Those were NiCad sub-C cells, the kind wrapped in kraft paper. Totally unmarked, of course -- I looked as carefully as I could without getting the remains of the deceased all over me (see next paragraph). The pack was held together with tabs capacitor-welded or soldered onto the cells. Total output was six volts. (I've since heard that there was a 7.2v model with, I would assume, the same guts except for an extra cell in the battery pack...) The charger was a worthless unregulated trickle-type charger. POS.

All I know about those batteries, spec wise, is in the paragraph above. I found the drill recently and opened it up. The batteries had exploded and ruined most of the guts, but the motor should still work -- gearbox, drill head (where the bit goes -- dunno proper term) and all. The motor is made by Johnson; I emailed them and got a form letter that says "oh yah that was an oem motor and we don't talk about those".

I'd love to hook that motor up to a wall wart after securing to wood to use as a DIY drill press. I know it's not got a lot of guts, but it's a start, ya know? Thing is I've no real way to find out the specs for it. Craftsman sure as hell won't tell me, and Johnson (as previously stated) won't talk either. Plus I don't have too many 6v wall warts -- and I do NOT want to smoke them testing this thing.

Of note, the motor assembly is the only part of that drill I still have. The guts all went in the garbage -- the trigger I wanted to save but it was half rust. The batteries weren't even safe to touch at this point -- they had battery guts all over them, all the color of badly corroded copper. The charger had no purpose left to its existence. All gone to the dump as of a couple months ago.

I guess the question is -- what is the absolute maximum amount of current this motor could pull, safely, out of a set of five early- to mid-1990s sub-C NiCads? Assume the pack can survive stall current for a few seconds (because it did, frequently).
 
I'll go check in a little bit.

I've a 12v 90w "laptop" brick but I'd be afraid of frying the motor...
 
The "Chuck" is what the term is after that you didn't know of, where the bit goes :)

Also you won't want to use any wallwarts for your testing. Why is simple: You have a wallwart with a very LOW Amp output on a motor with a very HIGH potential Amp usage (when drilling through dense wood for example). Your best bet would be to use a power supply for a computer and just rig it to power up via switch (take the PS_ON wire and ground it to turn on).

I don't know how well it will work for such a high load, and sometimes the PSU will consider this a "Short" and power itself off... HOWEVER... A trick you can do with computer fans to make it run quieter is use 5V for the fan's Ground and leave the Power on 12V. What that does is make the fan run at 7V instead (12 minus 5 = 7). Again, that might trip the PSU's "Short Circuit Protection" and thus wouldn't work, but worth a try IMO.

Alternatively the only other thing I can think of is to get a Automotive Battery Charger that is rated as a "Starter/Charger" and capable of 6V and 12V charging. Believe it or not, that is what I use for virtually the same reason as you. While you're going for a lathe, I just wanted to have a shit drill to use that had a hand chuck (instead of a "keyed chuck" that you mesh gears with a little tool to loosen bits). Only difference is mine was a 12V Craftsman, so I use 12V on the charger :p It doesn't have as much grunt as if I were using batteries though, since batteries can dump a lot more amps out, but it works alright for what I do lol

If you are going to use a wallwart though, make sure it can output at least 5 Amps (which I'm pretty sure you won't find one that high). Might be able to find a Power Brick capable of that for a really old laptop, but I think even they are higher voltage.

I'll end it by saying: I'm sure that motor can handle 12V, and Johnson might answer that specific question if you ask it, instead of asking for the entire specs. You'd have to bypass the voltage regulator though, as I don't know if THAT could handle 12V.

GL dude heh
 
I've got a 5v 1a wall wart that I really don't see being beefy enough.

Re: PC PSUs -- tried that once with an air compressor and it didn't spin even tho the PSU was rated like 20a on the 12v line and the compressor was a 12v 10a model. But I've got an old 145w Astec from a P1 box that I don't care if it dies... I'll try it out. Rating on the 5v line is 18a. I think it can handle one little drill motor ;) Supply is an Astec SA147-3505 if anyone cares. Date code is 9746, and although I'm not quite sure how to decipher it I can guarantee you it's one old mofo ATX supply.

No regulator on the motor. This poopadoop drill was so cheap they didn't bother even with noise caps! Just the batts, trigger, motor, and some wire inside the cheap plastic housing. Well, that and the crapshit trickle charger.
 
try a current limiting resistor in series to protect the PSU
 
Only resistor I have rated for more than a quarter watt is a 3ohm pencil lead resistor I rigged up as part of an SLA battery charger.

I really don't see that helping here!
 
Motor spins for ~1sec and then stops. Did it twice so I know I didn't pop a fuse... probably the Astec has a current limiting feature that doesn't like the motor... let me get the bastardized antec that I was trying to use with the air compressor, it's rated a little higher...

EDIT: dat antec :p runs the motor continuously -- probably because it's capable of 20a on the 12v line where the Astec is a mere 4.2a... BTW supply is a hacked-up Antec Performance True430 model :D good shit for sure...
 
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Next question. Where can I get a 20a DC resettable fuse (or a breaker) for this thing? I don't want to know what stalling out the motor will do to that supply (although I think I already do -- kapow...) -- after all, I've only tested it no-load so far...
 
Datecode 9746, COULD be April 6th of 1997, but I suspect it's the 46th Week of 1997 lol

Plenty of places to find your Resettable Fuse. You're best bet is auto parts website or store. I don't think it'll blow up that Antec, but it could depending on how old and much use it has. The capacitors could be starting to dry up if old enough and/or used enough, which then COULD cause it to fail, even if you don't stall the motor :D Just what you wanted to hear eh? lol I suspect it'll actually trip it's failsafe and shutdown like it's supposed to.
 
I'll probably get one on fleaBay -- I can get one there for around $7 shipping and all -- but Mouser will charge me $5 for shipping alone.

Might go down to O'Reilly tho. Might.
 
batteries can source an appalling current at short/stall, one would hope the Antec would save itself but another layer may be prudent.
 
I'll probably get one on fleaBay -- I can get one there for around $7 shipping and all -- but Mouser will charge me $5 for shipping alone.

Might go down to O'Reilly tho. Might.

What about this 20A Breaker, for $4.38? ($1.79/ea+$2.59 ship) Comes from Cali even!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/151088772646
Voltage specs in the linked Datasheet says
Maximum Operating Voltages: 50VDC; 250VAC, 50/60 Hz.​

The only thing I'm not exactly sure about is the trip time, and how much overload a stalled motor would create... Here's it's table, which if it's not a huge overload then it could be minutes before tripping, but even at 300% Overloaded it could take anywhere from 1.2 to 12 seconds :-S
Overload ----- Trip Times
100% ----------> No Trip
135% ----------> Trip in 1 hour
200% ----------> 4.0 - 40.0 Sec.
300% ----------> 1.2 - 12.0 Sec.
400% ----------> 0.6 - 5.0 Sec.
500% ----------> 0.4 - 2.8 Sec.
600% ----------> 0.3 - 1.8 Sec.
800% ----------> 0.18 - 0.9 Sec.
1000% --------> 0.12 - 0.7 Sec.​

Anyone hazard a guess how much of an overdraw a stalled motor might induce? Which, I'm no electric motor expert but lets just say his is a 10A, and then based on 5V and 12V (I'm sure his can handle 12V but factoring in both might be of use)...


Oh, also... You said it doesn't have any sort of voltage regulator in it (usually 3 wire, connected to a heatsink, which is sometimes just a tiny block of aluminum)? So that trigger is only an On-Off, in that you have no "throttle control" of the drill speed? In all the drills I've taken apart, be it a seriously cheap ass one or a nicer one (the one I attached to the Automotive Battery Starter/Charger is a Craftsman), they all had what I was talking about. I don't know if it's technically a voltage regulator, it could be a power resistor or something, but all it's doing is bleeding off energy when you partially press the trigger (which is a potentiometer). Which if you knew all that, I don't mean to insult your intelligence in any way, so I apologize if I may have :( lol
 
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If you've got a spare computer PSU, test the motor by running it off the 5V rail. It's close enough to the original battery pack, especially a battery pack that's running out of charge. Then bog down the motor (grab the chuck, actually use it to drive a screw into some nice, hard oak, etc) and test the current (do you have a multimeter that can measure amps of current?).

EDIT: late to the party--opened the thread last night, didn't reply until now...
 
I seem to recall --it's been a very long time since that drill worked!-- that the farther in the trigger went the faster the drill went. IIRC there was some sort of electronic stuff in addition to the trigger itself but I could be wrong. Probably it was a pot or variable resistor for the trigger and the other thing that I'm vaguely remembering would be a MOSFET then.

EDIT: @Mohonri -- sorry, we were typing at the same time, lol -- I'm running it off a computer PSU now, as a 7v motor (+12v and 5vGND method). My only multimeter is rated for a quarter amp, and I have no dedicated ammeters. Wish I did.

EDIT2 -- would be better if I had a breaker that tripped rapidly at 100% load. Also, dunno if it matters, but my multimeter is a Radio Shack 22-109 -- the analog one!
 
A friend of mine (not on [H]ere) is telling me that I need a capacitor in this, rather than a breaker. I don't need anything to start the motor, it does that just fine already. What the devil are they talking about?
 
he's thinking of larger AC motors, I take apart loads of DC drills, no cap
 
Interestingly, since we've mentioned caps, I was playing around some time ago with trying to force some caps to explode by reversing the polarity... They never did in this instance, though they have plenty in the past (don't ask -_-). Anyways, what I did notice was that if I connected up correctly, the charger would actually crank out a bit MORE voltage. Alas, that could be due to the battery charger being a completely non-digital device running off just a big transformer. *shrug*

The only problem I foresee with trying to get a breaker as a preventative measure, is the fact you don't have any specs on the motor. For all we know it's only rated for a max of 12V and a max of 2A, which who knows, could maybe only create a 5A load when completely stalled out heh Yet if it's a 15A motor it could draw maybe 25A under load... Mind you I'm completely talking out of my ass here, but it's within the realm of possibility. Point is, it boils down to the fact you could buy a breaker that ends up being much higher than it's normal draw and if it stalls but doesn't trip, it could burn the motor.

Cool to hear that it's working on +12V +5V though!
 
The point of the breaker isn't to protect the motor -- I'm not stupid enough to stall it long enough to smoke it by accident, nor am I interested in doing that on purpose for any reason -- I'd be out a perfectly fine drill motor if I did, and I want to keep it working.

The point of the breaker is to protect the power supply. Some sort of current protection that kicks in at 19a and cuts the thing off is fine with me.
 
A couple of thoughts--
1) Others are right that at stall, the motor will act as a dead short--VERY low resistance, with the possibility of drawing (not "sourcing"--that's what your power supply does) dozens of amps.
2) One other option for current limiting/overload protection is a PTC--positive temperature coefficient device. They're used, for example, in car window regulators, so that the window stops nicely at the top and the bottom without stalling the motor and drawing tons of current. It's a completely passive device, so you don't need access to it to reset it or anything. In order to spec out the proper one, though, you really need a decent estimate of the running and stall currents for the motor. You can get a rough estimate of stall current by measuring the resistance across the motor--it should be in the low-single-digits-to-fractional ohms range. Divide your supply voltage by that to get the stall current. You may need to borrow someone's higher-current-capable multimeter to get the running (or better yet loaded-but-not-stalled) current.

Google "ptc thermistor calculator" to work out the specs of the PTC you need, find some cheap place to buy it, and bob's your uncle.
 
Thanks, Mohonri -- I'll get working on that tomorrow. 1am here and bed is beckoning ;)
 
The point of the breaker isn't to protect the motor -- I'm not stupid enough to stall it long enough to smoke it by accident, nor am I interested in doing that on purpose for any reason -- I'd be out a perfectly fine drill motor if I did, and I want to keep it working.

The point of the breaker is to protect the power supply. Some sort of current protection that kicks in at 19a and cuts the thing off is fine with me.

No, trust me, I know you're wanting to protect your PSU and are otherwise not too worried about the motor (comparatively speaking). I just meant that your breaker size may be higher than what the stall is creating for a load, thus may not trip the breaker. I also realize you won't be letting it go unmonitored and so a stall will only be instantaneous. All I know is I burned out my brushless floor fan because the bearings seized, but I have no idea how long it was stalled for since it was not working upon waking up :\

At any rate I am loving Mohonri's idea (even if it involves some mathematical leg-work, since I suck at math lol). I'm a car guy and didn't even know that's how they worked, I just figured they had a microswitch or the like, but it makes perfect sense now that it's mentioned. So YAY even I learned something today! :p
 
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A couple of thoughts--
1) Others are right that at stall, the motor will act as a dead short--VERY low resistance, with the possibility of drawing (not "sourcing"--that's what your power supply does) dozens of amps.
2) One other option for current limiting/overload protection is a PTC--positive temperature coefficient device. They're used, for example, in car window regulators, so that the window stops nicely at the top and the bottom without stalling the motor and drawing tons of current. It's a completely passive device, so you don't need access to it to reset it or anything. In order to spec out the proper one, though, you really need a decent estimate of the running and stall currents for the motor. You can get a rough estimate of stall current by measuring the resistance across the motor--it should be in the low-single-digits-to-fractional ohms range. Divide your supply voltage by that to get the stall current. You may need to borrow someone's higher-current-capable multimeter to get the running (or better yet loaded-but-not-stalled) current.

Google "ptc thermistor calculator" to work out the specs of the PTC you need, find some cheap place to buy it, and bob's your uncle.

Just realized... the big concern I have is that the power supply I'm using won't handle the stall current from the motor. I'm either going to need a beefier PSU or I'm going to need a datasheet for this motor.

Anyone think I could get info out of Craftsman for this drill motor, at all? (I seriously doubt it, but I thought I'd ask.)
 
I think I might have scored a bit of good info for you, but not sure. I was trying to see what a used 110V drill would cost and say just use that, but even for a really old one it's $20+

At any rate, was going to try and find generic 5V drill motor ratings and came up with this thread:
https://www.ghielectronics.com/community/forum/topic?id=2028&page=1
This is the actual post that showed up that I thought had some good stuff, but I imagine the rest of the thread does as well...
https://www.ghielectronics.com/community/forum/topic?id=2028&page=3#msg20855

Hope it helps some.
 
I actually have two 120v drills. One is my workhorse, it's a Rockwell that's gotta be older than me. It's plastic on the outside so it's not a super old drill but it brags about being "double insulated" (probably referring to the plastic housing!) and it'll drill just about anything other than an oil well. Sounds like a jet engine but it is amazing.

The other is a cheapass Black&Decker I got at the local Wal*Mart when I was having an issue with the Rockwell where the chuck wouldn't open or close. (it was a bad case of rust and nothing else; I felt mighty dumb when my father fixed it in a few minutes with approximately a half-can of WD-40. LOL!)

If it's in every way possible a better idea, I can butcher the Black&Decker and use that. Mom will quite likely rain thunder from the heavens, but I can probably placate her if it's more practical to do that then f*ck with this 6v peewee thing. I don't plan on eg drilling steel rectangular tubing with this thing; my favorite materials are wood, translucent rigid binder-plastic (seriously wtf is that shit? acrylic?) and cardboard...

EDIT: boy was I wrong. Just spoke to Mom. Her exact words: "I don't care!" In other words: it's perfectly fine. Anyone want a used 6v drill motor? :D
 
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hahah Sweet! Now you'll have an intact, and usable speed control trigger as well :p Plus, it should be tons more powerful.

Let me know how it works out. Maybe I'll see if this spare, equally old-as-the-hills Crasftman I have works... It was my neighbors and left out in the rain, so likely rather gunked up somewhere. I only saved it from the garbage because we coincidentally have the exact same one, and ours needed a new power cord lol
 
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