8700 or 8700K for surveillance PC?

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fatryan

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I'm building my first computer, and admittedly know little about building computers (despite being a long time member here ha ha). This build is for an in home surveillance system, which will record 24/7.

Without getting into too much detail, the specifics of the surveillance system will be:
- Blue Iris software (bit of a resource hog)
- (2) Dahua 8MP PoE IP cams (1 stream 4k @ 20fps, 1 stream 720-1080 @ 30-60fps)
- (2) Dahua 2MP PoE IP cams (1 stream 1080p @ 30fps, 1 stream 720p @ 30fps)
- PoE injector & switch

I've already begun purchasing the components for the build. I'm mostly going off Blue Iris recommended specs, but I'm also getting some assistance from my brother in law. He's just not as familiar with the higher end IP cams and the demand they can put on a system, which is why I'm here. He has a surveillance PC he build, but he only runs an Arlo setup with 720p cams on 1 stream each...a far cry from the Dahua equipment i own.

The components i have already or have coming in the mail are:
- MSI Z390 gaming edge ac
- WD purple 10TB 7200rpm (surveillance storage)
- Samsung evo 860 SSD (OS)
- Asus BW-16D1HT w/custom firmware for ripping/burning 4k
- wireless keyboard/mouse

Components i still need to purchase are:
- CPU
- CPU cooler (depending on CPU, see below)
- Quality thermal paste
- RAM
- Case
- power supply
- fans
- monitor(s)
- Win 10-64 Pro
- maybe other stuff I'm forgetting at this moment

So regarding the title of this thread, I'm finding it difficult determining which CPU is best for my application. The rest of the items on my list shouldn't be a problem, though I'm always open to suggestions. But there's not a whole lot of info out there in surveillance PC builds, and the info that is out there tends to use pretty low end camera equipment.

Blue Iris recommends Intel CPUs with QuickSync, which is virtually all newer higher end Intel CPUs from what i can tell. They specifically recommend Core i7s. Now i wasn't opposed to an i5, but the prices aren't really any cheaper for i5s (in some cases they're more). I don't know that I would want to risk stepping down to an i3, when Blue Iris has a bad reputation of hogging resources. Plus I'd like the head room for future expansion.

So that more or less leaves me with two choices within my budget, 8700K or 8700. To overclock or not to overclock, that is the question. I see no reason why I would need OC with current equipment, but it'd be nice to have the option. I've also read "K" CPUs get the designation because they're capable of handling more load and thus last much longer than non-K. Is this true or all BS?

I know i would need cooling for the 8700K, but from what i can tell water cooling isn't required. That however is based on reports from gaming builds, not surveillance PC builds running 24/7. I've heard water cooling can be tricky, and obviously I'm a novice here. So i don't want to get in over my head (no pun intended).

What are your thoughts on the CPU for this build? I'm particularly interested to hear from anyone with experience building surveillance PCs, but any input is welcome. Thanks.
 
I know this forum doesn't have many members with experience in surveillance systems and their computing demands, but I'm hoping some reasonable predictions could be drawn from known CPU performance under higher load short-duration demands such as gaming.

Also, i have another surveillance setup at my rental property which is similar, except that instead of the (2) 8MP cams I just have (2) more 2MP cams (4 total). That setup runs on a Dahua 16-channel 4k PoE NVR, which is more than overkill. But that NVR can allegedly record up to (16) 8MP cameras simultaneously. So what I'm getting at is that if anything can be inferred, I can get the specs on the NVR processor. It's either dual or quad core, but that's all i remember off hand. The NVR OS is obviously much lighter than windows, and it's dedicated to recording video only by design. But taking that into account, maybe it's possible to predict a certain demand from the equipment? Or am i just way off base?

FYI although the NVR offers far more functionality than i even need, the reason I'm moving to a PC build is because the NVR OS GUI is just a nightmare to navigate.
 
i have built one based off old i7 2600 parts and its running 3 cameras 24/7 that i think are at 720p@ 30fps all dahua or dahua variants if i had to get your build looks like it would be more than suffiecent but then im not sure about the 4k i have never run a 4k cam.
 
Thanks for the input. Do you recall the load those cams put on your CPU? What software did you use? Do you remember the RAM by chance?
 
I ran blueiris but it didnt strain the cpu cant remwbwr the load % it ran 8gb ram. It was also running headless
 
Surveillance is not really about CPU as much... its all about bitrate and IOPS of the storage subsystem.

A dual core Athlon 200GE could power a system with 50 cameras, but can the storage system handle the random io of all these cams hitting the disks at the same time?

Too many people think its about the CPU but in reality the biggest caveat is the storage throughput. Writing 10+ mp4 files in realtime is demanding on the storage system more than one would consider.
 
antok86 said:
no monitor hooked up. if i needed access it was remoted into.
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Oh gotcha. Well the only 4k displays i have are TVs, so I'd have to have a pretty annoying wiring setup with my old ass laptop and TV to do that myself. Unless there's some way to do it with my Asus router, but i don't know enough about that.

Sounds like i should be fine with the 8700, which i figured anyway. Just wondering if it's like buying a Ferrari then putting on tires with a T speed rating.
 
tangoseal said:
Surveillance is not really about CPU as much... its all about bitrate and IOPS of the storage subsystem.

A dual core Athlon 200GE could power a system with 50 cameras, but can the storage system handle the random io of all these cams hitting the disks at the same time?

Too many people think its about the CPU but in reality the biggest caveat is the storage throughput. Writing 10+ mp4 files in realtime is demanding on the storage system more than one would consider.
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Not saying what you're saying is incorrect, but based on your mentioning mp4 containers I think you're confusing my camera equipment with low end equipment found in the US. My equipment is from one the largest manufacturers of camera equipment in the world, and these specific lines can only be purchased outside the US. I have a supplier in China that I get my equipment from. All Dahua/Alhua cameras, to my knowledge, record exclusively in the DAV file format. And I know this to be the case for many of the other leading manufacturers.

The reason I mention this is not about file size, as I utilize h.265 coding. So obviously I'm using suitable video compression. The reason I mention it is because the low end US equipment is functionally very basic. It records video, as you stated, and has a few other fancy features. But it's really quite basic. I don't even have very advanced equipment by industry standards, and my equipment is far more sophisticated than the likes of a Nest cam or Arlo or any Night Owl, Lorex, or Hiki system you will find in the states. It can do all of the following and much more:

- Record 3 simultaneous video streams per camera (3x4 = 12 videos at once)
- Record snapshots while recording video (can be triggered by events/alarms/motion/etc)
- Motion Detection/Tripwire/Facial Recognition/Intrusion/Object Abandoned or Missing
- License Plate Detection & Logging
- 3D DNR / BLC / HLC / WDR
- Minimum illumination as low as 0.006Lux w/o IR (specifically the 2MP Starlight series is this low)

All this stuff must be processed through Blue Iris. I won't use every feature, but I will likely use most of the above.

The spec sheet for the 4k cams can be found here (must be opened on a PC, not mobile):
https://www.dahuasecurity.com/asset...227/DH-IPC-HDW5831R-ZE_Datasheet_20181227.pdf

I'm not as familiar with Blue Iris functionality, but you can pretty much bet it's got all the same features as my Dahua NVR (and probably more). In which case, the PC will additionally be dealing with at least the following as a minimum from Blue Iris:

- Motion detection triggers
- Alarms/Notifications (SMS/email/IFTTT?)
- Snapshot Notification Uploads (SMS/email/Drive)
- Cloud video backups (Google Drive, Dropbox, or ftp)
- Cloud snapshot backups (Google Drive, Dropbox, or ftp)
- Video loss & tampering monitoring/notification
- 2-way audio communication (would need to add speaker for this, cams have mic)
- Simultaneous video access (Local & remote via VPN)

So as I've been saying...I really don't know how much of a load to expect from all of this. But I just want to be clear that this isn't the kind of garbage equipment that you buy on sale at BJ's or get from Google or Amazon. It has many more advance features which I would image put more of a load on the computer, especially when considering the fact that 2 of the cameras will have (2) 4k UHD streams...just seems like a lot of images to process when I think about it. I'm also thinking about future expansion to some degree, so I want headroom.

And although I don't anticipate using it often at all, I bought the Asus 4k burner with the expectation to be able to use it without shutting down the surveillance system. Since the surveillance system runs 24/7, you would have to assume that is another load on the computer. Not even sure if a 4k burner is considered a big load, so maybe this is a non-issue. Just thought I'd mention it.

And I guess to directly address the IO aspect, good thing I bought the 7200RPM WD Purple? Ha ha
 
Well that was a huge reply but... you mention h265 so yes you need lots of CPU. Not joking. It takes my threadripper literal hours to rework stuff into h265.

But we also have very high end equipment in the US as well. For instance I guess its mid end?? But Ubiquiti cameras stream and record 264 and require little CPU but really good disks.

H265 though is a whole other difficulty I agree. 8700k should be decent but you.might even need to go with a Xeon if your doing multiple 265 files at same time.
 
tangoseal said:
Well that was a huge reply but... you mention h265 so yes you need lots of CPU. Not joking. It takes my threadripper literal hours to rework stuff into h265.
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Yeah, sorry, I have a tendency to write novels ha ha

So h.265 is a problem? Didn't see that coming. What about h.264? I can do that instead.
 
Tangoseal made mention of his threadripper CPU; the first thought that came to my mind was which CPU could multithread better-that said my understanding of the diffs between the 8700/K models is overclockability. THAT said, I agree writing to disk all the time would be a big factor. Consider a M.2 card, or is the size you need going to be cost prohibitive? Anyone else thinking along the same lines as I am or if so-think I am off base? I would recommend that superspeed HD/SSD, with the OC'd CPU or the CPU which runs more threads, which I think those 8700s run 16 off the top of my head....just ate lunch so I'm too lazy to open another tab and search the spec up....
 
DanHirschberg said:
Tangoseal made mention of his threadripper CPU; the first thought that came to my mind was which CPU could multithread better-that said my understanding of the diffs between the 8700/K models is overclockability. THAT said, I agree writing to disk all the time would be a big factor. Consider a M.2 card, or is the size you need going to be cost prohibitive? Anyone else thinking along the same lines as I am or if so-think I am off base? I would recommend that superspeed HD/SSD, with the OC'd CPU or the CPU which runs more threads, which I think those 8700s run 16 off the top of my head....just ate lunch so I'm too lazy to open another tab and search the spec up....
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12 threads. And is there no concern about heat or longevity with running OC with literally ZERO break? Especially on the 8700K...

Regarding storage, I'm good there. WD Purple is designed specifically for surveillance. They're made to be written and over-written, but not read all that often. The 7200RPM drives are specifically for 4k as well. It's all already been purchased (SSD for OS and HDD for Storage).
 
fatryan said:
12 threads. And is there no concern about heat or longevity with running OC with literally ZERO break? Especially on the 8700K...

Regarding storage, I'm good there. WD Purple is designed specifically for surveillance. They're made to be written and over-written, but not read all that often. The 7200RPM drives are specifically for 4k as well. It's all already been purchased (SSD for OS and HDD for Storage).
Click to expand...

Ryan to be quite frank with you, based on your OP, I kind of feel that you're splitting hairs at this point and the price would be the final consideration-unless there is something I am missing or that you don't additionally wish to consider.
 
DanHirschberg said:
Ryan to be quite frank with you, based on your OP, I kind of feel that you're splitting hairs at this point and the price would be the final consideration-unless there is something I am missing or that you don't additionally wish to consider.
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I think that part that you're missing is that I know nothing about building computers lol This is my first experience in that area, and as such I wouldn't even know if I'm splitting hairs. Obviously I can read specs, to which the 8700K edges out the 8700 a little. But the OC-ability of the 8700K and the anecdotal evidence I heard about reliability seem to suggest the 8700K is significantly superior.

Given that reliability is most critical in this build, and given what tangoseal said about h.265 compression, which if these processors would be the best suited for the job? Or do you still think it's pretty much a wash? To be honest, I was pretty much assuming the same...that either CPU was plenty computing power for my needs. But tangoseal's comment about h.265 kinda threw me through a loop, and now I don't know what the hell to think.

Everything I see and read about for CPUs and components in general is centered around the demands of gaming. That's all fine and well for the short term, but it doesn't take an expert to know that if you leave a computer running long enough under even light load...it generates more heat and runs less efficient. Scheduled reboots will certainly be built in to my system. But where do I get information on the lifespan of a processor or mobo when running 24/7 at XX%? Has anyone ever tested fan reliability for that frequent of use? These are the types of questions I've had, but they're very difficult to find answers for because these Surveillance PC communities are so small and mostly foreign.

Not knowing the load I will get from the equipment is obviously the big unknown variable, but it's the variable dictating which equipment I purchase. If my CPU is continually processing (8) h.265 streams, what kind of load am I looking at from that? I don't want to be riding say a 50% CPU load 24/7 (I don't even know if that's considered high), because (a) that will most certainly shorten the lifespan of the CPU with non-stop use, and (b) it leaves me little headroom for future expansion and even shorter lifespan. Lets say I hook it all up and it barely registers a 1% load, well then I clearly oversized it. But I shouldn't have to worry about it ever getting hot; my fans may not come on very often at all. That's ideal when you're looking at 24hr operation IMO. I don't exactly know what the sweet spot is, nor do I have the slightest clue where I will land. All I know is that I do not want to spend $1,000-1,500 on a PC that just burns out in a year.
 
fatryan said:
I think that part that you're missing is that I know nothing about building computers lol This is my first experience in that area, and as such I wouldn't even know if I'm splitting hairs. Obviously I can read specs, to which the 8700K edges out the 8700 a little. But the OC-ability of the 8700K and the anecdotal evidence I heard about reliability seem to suggest the 8700K is significantly superior.

Given that reliability is most critical in this build, and given what tangoseal said about h.265 compression, which if these processors would be the best suited for the job? Or do you still think it's pretty much a wash? To be honest, I was pretty much assuming the same...that either CPU was plenty computing power for my needs. But tangoseal's comment about h.265 kinda threw me through a loop, and now I don't know what the hell to think.

Everything I see and read about for CPUs and components in general is centered around the demands of gaming. That's all fine and well for the short term, but it doesn't take an expert to know that if you leave a computer running long enough under even light load...it generates more heat and runs less efficient. Scheduled reboots will certainly be built in to my system. But where do I get information on the lifespan of a processor or mobo when running 24/7 at XX%? Has anyone ever tested fan reliability for that frequent of use? These are the types of questions I've had, but they're very difficult to find answers for because these Surveillance PC communities are so small and mostly foreign.

Not knowing the load I will get from the equipment is obviously the big unknown variable, but it's the variable dictating which equipment I purchase. If my CPU is continually processing (8) h.265 streams, what kind of load am I looking at from that? I don't want to be riding say a 50% CPU load 24/7 (I don't even know if that's considered high), because (a) that will most certainly shorten the lifespan of the CPU with non-stop use, and (b) it leaves me little headroom for future expansion and even shorter lifespan. Lets say I hook it all up and it barely registers a 1% load, well then I clearly oversized it. But I shouldn't have to worry about it ever getting hot; my fans may not come on very often at all. That's ideal when you're looking at 24hr operation IMO. I don't exactly know what the sweet spot is, nor do I have the slightest clue where I will land. All I know is that I do not want to spend $1,000-1,500 on a PC that just burns out in a year.
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I honestly think you're fine. Unless you start looking at other CPUs I would say either one, The K is always the better choice-but still for your application...I don't mean to treat you like a cheesedick but check this thread out. It may help.

https://www.cctvforum.com/topic/43915-minimum-requirements-for-a-pc-to-function-as-a-nvr/
 
I should point out the above just takes a few things into consideration. It's obvious your application is going to need some processing power, from what I have read in the five minutes I put into it. I work tech support for people who run CCTV in 1080 and bitrate, as mentioned above, is going to factor. I remember handling a client a week or two ago who was running two cams and he had to upgrade his service speeds to a 15/7Mb pack to get the kind of throughput he needed to run his equipment. at a $50-60 difference, I would say to hell with it and get the 8700K. I think something to remember is lots of numbers out there but at the end of the day, are you concerned with the performance or the savings? Only you can answer that question. That said-what equates to "performance" and which variables are in play can be tough to figure out. I vote for the K
 
DanHirschberg said:
I honestly think you're fine. Unless you start looking at other CPUs I would say either one, The K is always the better choice-but still for your application...I don't mean to treat you like a cheesedick but check this thread out. It may help.

https://www.cctvforum.com/topic/43915-minimum-requirements-for-a-pc-to-function-as-a-nvr/
Click to expand...
Ummm...did you actually read that thread you linked? lol It doesn't really contain anything useful. I mean, perhaps it was useful to that OP in that forum. But I'm well beyond that point in my knowledge of computer processors and ip cameras. Or maybe did you link the wrong thread, cause I'm super confused by that post.

Certainly there are a lot of factors I haven't mentioned which dictate the filesize and speed at which the file is compressed and transmitted. Unless I'm mistaking your verbiage with something else I'm unfamiliar with, my "service speeds" are not a factor here. Presumably any "service" that would need upgrading would be my ISP. This entire system will be hardwired, via Cat6 with power over ethernet. All full quality streams (2x 8MP & 2x 2MP) will be local-only, with direct write to the HDD (no upload to Cloud). The substreams are what are accessed remotely, uploaded to Cloud, etc. That's their whole purpose. That's why they're lower quality streams. I have an an Asus AC68U that will be handling the VPN for remote access via the Blue Iris app. So technically that part relies on shitty Comcast; but with my Asus router, Netgear CM1000, and 250Mbps comcast service, Speedtest.net puts me over 300Mbps hardwired pretty consistently. For comparison, I'm currently running 4 of the same substreams at my rental property, which I access through the Dahua app using the VPN setup on my Netgear R7000, a CM500, & Comcast 150Mbps service...and it runs flawlessly every time. I can view live feeds, access recorded videos, speed up to 8x speed or down to 1/8x speed, zoom in/out on cams...all without a hiccup and from anywhere in the world. So with that said, I'm not concerned about the substreams. I've tried using main streams for remote access, and it barely functions, so I already know not to even attempt it.
 
fatryan said:
Ummm...did you actually read that thread you linked? lol It doesn't really contain anything useful. I mean, perhaps it was useful to that OP in that forum. But I'm well beyond that point in my knowledge of computer processors and ip cameras. Or maybe did you link the wrong thread, cause I'm super confused by that post.

Certainly there are a lot of factors I haven't mentioned which dictate the filesize and speed at which the file is compressed and transmitted. Unless I'm mistaking your verbiage with something else I'm unfamiliar with, my "service speeds" are not a factor here. Presumably any "service" that would need upgrading would be my ISP. This entire system will be hardwired, via Cat6 with power over ethernet. All full quality streams (2x 8MP & 2x 2MP) will be local-only, with direct write to the HDD (no upload to Cloud). The substreams are what are accessed remotely, uploaded to Cloud, etc. That's their whole purpose. That's why they're lower quality streams. I have an an Asus AC68U that will be handling the VPN for remote access via the Blue Iris app. So technically that part relies on shitty Comcast; but with my Asus router, Netgear CM1000, and 250Mbps comcast service, Speedtest.net puts me over 300Mbps hardwired pretty consistently. For comparison, I'm currently running 4 of the same substreams at my rental property, which I access through the Dahua app using the VPN setup on my Netgear R7000, a CM500, & Comcast 150Mbps service...and it runs flawlessly every time. I can view live feeds, access recorded videos, speed up to 8x speed or down to 1/8x speed, zoom in/out on cams...all without a hiccup and from anywhere in the world. So with that said, I'm not concerned about the substreams. I've tried using main streams for remote access, and it barely functions, so I already know not to even attempt it.
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my follow up post was meant to clear up that the url was not an exhaustive thread and didn't answer any questions. perhaps being sick with the flu the past few days has cut down my ability to contribute. but as far as I can figure it, I would think at this point you won't know what you need to know until you deploy.
 
I had a discussion with someone who also builds surveillance PCs like this, and he provided probably the single most useful piece of information ever... A database of Blue Iris user's anonymous performance data and system specs.

https://biupdatehelper.hopto.org/default.html#stats

Though obviously not a complete picture, it's pretty much invaluable at this point.

He also pointed out that my mobo does not have integrated video, so i can't utilize Intel Quick Sync, which greatly reduced cpu load on Blue Iris. So i guess i need to return that MSI board to newegg if possible and start again.
 
There is nothing wrong with your motherboard Z390 gaming edge ac.

The iGPU (integrated video) is built in the CPU (I7 8700k and I7 8700)

So definitely you don't need to change the motherboard.

if you chose any of those CPU you will be able to use Quick Sync.

I am considering to build an UnRaid setup for my video library and for surveillance system (Blue Iris) and I am considering similar build.
 
EmualDave2k12 said:
There is nothing wrong with your motherboard Z390 gaming edge ac.

The iGPU (integrated video) is built in the CPU (I7 8700k and I7 8700)

So definitely you don't need to change the motherboard.

if you chose any of those CPU you will be able to use Quick Sync.

I am considering to build an UnRaid setup for my video library and for surveillance system (Blue Iris) and I am considering similar build.
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Supposedly MSI has no way to activate QS in the BIOS. Look it up. It's a common problem with MSI boards. I have yet to find any information suggesting a fix has been found.
 
8700K vs. 8700: you don't have to overclock the 8700K. It'll hit 4.7GHz on its own, and that's fast enough. Any decent aftermarket cooler will get you there, consider the Cooler Master Hyper 212 as the basic reference.
 
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