4K Gaming: What Can PC Learn from PlayStation Pro?

[Megalith]

Native output is king, but here is an argument that certain graphics tricks utilized by consoles to overcome modest hardware should see greater use on PC. Techniques such as checkerboarding and dynamic resolution would provide more flexibility for gamers with high-resolution displays but weaker rigs, or for those who want to prioritize image quality versus performance differently. Nothing wrong with more options, I say, even if “fake” 4K is blatantly worse looking.

...when it comes to rendering to a 4K display, a native framebuffer is obviously the most ideal way to go, but we strongly recommend experimenting with internal resolution scalers and the CRU tool if you feel performance could be improved. Based on developer documentation we've seen, Sony's internal tests found that sub-native resolutions at 1800p and higher still hold up well on today's 4K screens, and our tests on a 32-inch 4K monitor and a 55-inch OLED screen bear this out. 1800p is effective, but there are other options: a 3456x1944 resolution amounts to a 90 per cent scale on each axis, adding a good degree of wiggle room to your GPU in improving frame-rates, while still looking great.

 

[tetris42]

So blurring the image by running it lower than non-native resolution? Pretty sure the PC has had that trick in its arsenal for many years and there are good reasons why most people don't use it. The checkerboarding thing could be handy though. There's currently a petition for that since both AMD and Nvidia are tonedeaf about it.

 

[KazeoHin]

Lowering internal buffer resolution is so useful for getting those last few FPS. It's a shame more games don't feature this option.

As for non- native resolutions on an LCD, I'm pretty sure GPU scaling is better than most in-built scaling on monitors.

Overall a really cool video.

 

[Daferg]

Checker boarding and dynamic resolution - both appear to be logical tech that should have implemented on PCs a while ago. Lets face it resolution density is only going to go up; like it always has

 

[RogueTadhg]

Keep the console "trickery" at bay.

PC Master race don't use Graphics Trickery because our hardware is too bad. We suck it up and lower the graphics quality or upgrade.

 

[Nolan7689]

Keep the console "trickery" at bay.

PC Master race don't use Graphics Trickery because our hardware is too bad. We suck it up and lower the graphics quality or upgrade.

But why lower the quality if such trickery can eliminate/reduce the need for it? I don't see it being much different than squeezing a few FPS via a modest OC other than it is software rather than hardware.

 

[Cali3350]

Checker boarding is a fantastic method and I wish people would implement it in PC systems ASAP. Native is better, but Checker boarding is a wonderful way to increase resolution, still seeing tangible benefits, at a lesser cost.

 

[RogueTadhg]

But why lower the quality if such trickery can eliminate/reduce the need for it? I don't see it being much different than squeezing a few FPS via a modest OC other than it is software rather than hardware.

It won't eliminate the need. It's not the same in terms of quality. Similar, Yes. Same, no. It should never be confused as the same. Looking at the quality of images, the textures are less crisp all over. More or less depending on games. But this is to be expected as pixels are stretched.

 

[SvenBent]

Sony's internal tests found that sub-native resolutions at 1800p and higher still hold up well on today's 4K screen
but tje people that brought you that smooth 25fps for that mobie feel...

 

[tetris42]

Checker boarding is a fantastic method and I wish people would implement it in PC systems ASAP. Native is better, but Checker boarding is a wonderful way to increase resolution, still seeing tangible benefits, at a lesser cost.

That could be also quite useful for applications that just won't scale properly on Windows, so you don't have to bust out the magnifying glass to read them on a 4k screen. It would be great to be able to quickly swap into checkerboarded 1080 mode on a 4k monitor.

 

[Usual_suspect]

I think the PS4 Pro does its job well when considering the form factor, specs and cost.

Checkerboard is akin to FXAA in my opinion in the sense that it allows lower tier hardware to produce decent IQ at less resource cost.

I get a kick out of those Console vs PC arguments. Don't get me wrong I love my PC, but in a gaming sense to me unless I spent good money to reproduce the feeling I get from being able to lay on my bed or sit on my couch and comfortably play games on my PC I'm always going to look at the consoles as the defacto way to play.

Considering I mostly play WoW on my computer I have seen little need to upgrade my rig. I just can't get into any other game on a PC like I do on a console, to me it just looks uncomfortable to sit upright in one confined spot.

Now my system isn't too shabby: i7 4790k, GTX 970, 16 GB DDR3 2100MHz. It's far from the best but far from mediocre at the same time. I can run games like GTA V with relatively high IQ at 1080p with mostly high settings at a solid 55-60FPS which dwarfs any console but the comfort factor is what keeps me from choosing my PC solely as my gaming machine.

Now I know if I want the best graphical experience the PC is and always will be the master race, but for the higher tiers of graphics that the PC is capable of doing costs considerably more than a console and at the end of the day most consumers aren't going to feel that spending the extra hundreds if not thousands is worth it.

This is all just my opinion.

 

[tetris42]

But why lower the quality if such trickery can eliminate/reduce the need for it? I don't see it being much different than squeezing a few FPS via a modest OC other than it is software rather than hardware.

Because you're losing quality either way. You're either getting less details rendered, or else you're lowering the fidelity and adding blur to everything. It's subjective which one you consider worse.

I think the PS4 Pro does its job well when considering the form factor, specs and cost.

Checkerboard is akin to FXAA in my opinion in the sense that it allows lower tier hardware to produce decent IQ at less resource cost.

I get a kick out of those Console vs PC arguments. Don't get me wrong I love my PC, but in a gaming sense to me unless I spent good money to reproduce the feeling I get from being able to lay on my bed or sit on my couch and comfortably play games on my PC I'm always going to look at the consoles as the defacto way to play.

Considering I mostly play WoW on my computer I have seen little need to upgrade my rig. I just can't get into any other game on a PC like I do on a console, to me it just looks uncomfortable to sit upright in one confined spot.

Now my system isn't too shabby, i7 4790k, GTX 970, 16 GB DDR3 2100MHz it's far from the best but far from mediocre at the same time. I can run games like GTA V with relatively high IQ at 1080p with mostly high settings at a solid 55-60FPS which dwarfs any console but the comfort factor is what keeps me from choosing my PC solely as my gaming machine.

Now I know if I want the best graphical experience the PC is and always will be the master race, but for the higher tiers of graphics that the PC is capable of doing costs considerably more than a console and at the end of the day most consumers aren't going to feel that spending the extra hundreds if not thousands is worth it.

This is all just my opinion.

Well you have to consider this is coming from a headline "what the PC can learn from the Playstation Pro" as though this is groundbreaking stuff. I literally could have had the game render at a lower resolution than my native monitor was displaying 10+ years ago. Non-native resolutions tends to look like ass, though hey, sitting across the living room, it might not be so noticeable.

As for the rest of your post, one of the weakest elements of PC gaming is it lacks the simplicity of the console. There really is a market for a streamlined living room PC that's as simple to operate as a console, but nobody seems to have attempted that besides the Steambox, and they went with Linux, so not exactly game experience of the year. Anyone in this forum should know that if they want the living room experience on a PC, they can have it, but the pre-configuration process still isn't what exists on a console.

 

[travbrad]

Anyone in this forum should know that if they want the living room experience on a PC, they can have it, but the pre-configuration process still isn't what exists on a console.

I think one issue for some people is just the fact they need to use their PC for work as well. Setting up a PC at a TV/couch is easy but that setup is far from ideal for doing work. So in that case you sort of need a 2nd PC (costs a fair bit), a laptop (costs more/slower/limited upgrades), or be constantly moving your PC around.

There are a lot of PC games that just don't play well without a mouse either, especially online games. Playing CSGO, Dota 2, Overwatch, etc with a controller on PC is an exercise in futility. On the consoles most people are using a controller so it's a more even playing field. Technically you can set up something to use a mouse/kb from your couch, but that's not really any more comfortable than a good office chair at that point.

 

[homernoy]

I think one issue for some people is just the fact they need to use their PC for work as well. Setting up a PC at a TV/couch is easy but that setup is far from ideal for doing work. So in that case you sort of need a 2nd PC (costs a fair bit), a laptop (costs more/slower/limited upgrades), or be constantly moving your PC around.

There are a lot of PC games that just don't play well without a mouse either, especially online games. Playing CSGO, Dota 2, Overwatch, etc with a controller on PC is an exercise in futility. On the consoles most people are using a controller so it's a more even playing field. Technically you can set up something to use a mouse/kb from your couch, but that's not really any more comfortable than a good office chair at that point.

Sometimes I really don't see how people comment on PC gaming when they don't seem to know very much about it, especially in the living room.



http://www.techspot.com/review/1178-corsair-lapdog/

I game on PC in my living room, and have for a long time and have experienced none of the issues brought up against it here. Also, I have an HTC Vive and want the extra space the living room provides, and no console is going do anything better regarding the Vive.

 

[M76]

Fuck no. No, no no and no.

I don't want scaling, scaling looks terrible on any screen. Yes on 4K it's less obvious than at a lower resolution, but it still blurs things. And for me it's unacceptable especially for interfaces.

Dynamic resolution scaling? Again a big fuck no. There were games that did lower graphics settings dynamically to adjust for FPS, I don't remember which. But is was terrible to see the graphics deteriorate in front of you in real time. I'd rather the fps dips lower than to see dynamic adjustments in graphics clarity. Some games already have terrible pop-in. We don't want to add insult to injury.

Checkerboarding would probably be the least invasive combined with temporal smoothing, but it will still ruin high intensity high motion scenes. I want clarity in every scene, especially fast moving scenes. I hate every kind of blur effect that reduces detail instead of increasing it. So again, no thanks.

I don't care if they implement these features as options, But if they'd become industry standard I'd be really really pissed off. And I would consider that the end of the PC master race.

Playing PC in a living room for a couch is already blasphemy. You already reduced yourself into a console peasant if you do that. And I have no problem with that, I play as a console peasant sometimes as well. But please don't preach about Pc gaming from a couch with a controller in your hand.

 

[homernoy]

Playing PC in a living room for a couch is already blasphemy. You already reduced yourself into a console peasant if you do that. And I have no problem with that, I play as a console peasant sometimes as well. But please don't preach about Pc gaming from a couch with a controller in your hand.

How else do I use my curved 65" 4k TV? Or my Vive? I play DayZ and other M/KB games all of the time in my living room. Mainly I play those games at my desk, but still..........

 

[tetris42]

I game on PC in my living room, and have for a long time and have experienced none of the issues brought up against it here.

I think we just have different definitions of simplicity. To me, consoles are capable of providing the ultimate simple experience: Turn on, put game in, play. A PC needs to be preconfigured for that level of simplicity to compete. I'm not saying it's can't GET there, I'm saying it takes setting up to a greater degree than a lot of console users aren't going to want to have to deal with. Even your Steamlink presupposes a gaming machine already set up and ready to go.

Playing PC in a living room for a couch is already blasphemy. You already reduced yourself into a console peasant if you do that. And I have no problem with that, I play as a console peasant sometimes as well. But please don't preach about Pc gaming from a couch with a controller in your hand.

FFS, the greatest strength of the PC is its flexibility. Some games work fine in the living room, some are better for a desktop configuration. PC gaming can be a streamlined experience that takes a minimum of effort once it's set up, or it can be an overly complex modded monstrosity and everything in between. That's the whole point, it can do it all. If somebody wants to play Project Cars on a big screen TV with a steering wheel in their living room with a powerful PC, that makes them a console peasant? Are you high?

 

[M76]

How else do I use my curved 65" 4k TV? Or my Vive? I play DayZ and other M/KB games all of the time in my living room. Mainly I play those games at my desk, but still..........

Well I don't use my Tv for gaming even if it's a few feet away from me. At least not for PC gaming. And if I could I'd rather play console games at the desk as well. With mouse and kb. But if we talk about VR you definitely don't want a blurry image when the screen is 2cms from your eyes. Console gaming is less affected by these techniques as you usually sit so far away from the screen that you don't notice the ill effects. Personally I don't see the appeal of couch gaming. Why sit 10 feet from a 60" screen when I can sit 2 feet from a 28" screen?

 

[homernoy]

You can sit as close as you want to a 65" TV, especially if it's 4k. I also like to play split screen co-op with my young son (and sometimes daughters) on the big screen. Games like Sonic & All-Stars Racing Transformed cannot be played on any other platform at 4k, and have 4 screen split without frame drops. It's a hell of a lot of family fun. One of the players can even choose a keyboard to play use if they want.

I'm not saying it's for everyone, but people overplay the fact that it's overly complex and cumbersome. That simply is untrue. I mean for fucks sake, this is the [H] man, and I love the fact that I can do almost anything with my gaming PC.

 

[travbrad]

Sometimes I really don't see how people comment on PC gaming when they don't seem to know very much about it, especially in the living room.



http://www.techspot.com/review/1178-corsair-lapdog/

I game on PC in my living room, and have for a long time and have experienced none of the issues brought up against it here. Also, I have an HTC Vive and want the extra space the living room provides, and no console is going do anything better regarding the Vive.

Steam in-home streaming/Steam Link has unacceptable input lag for me and many others. I'm glad it works for you but it's not the magic bullet solution I truly wish it was. I was really psyched for the whole Steam Link idea until I actually tried in-home streaming.

You must not play any FPS, RTS, or MOBAs online if you haven't run into issues using controllers though. I tried using the Steam controller in Planetside 2 for a few days and my KDR was literally 1/20th what it was with a mouse/kb. It was just pure frustration. A lot of games work great with a controller but a lot of games just don't.

As for the "difficulty" of setting it up, of course it's really easy for most people on HardOCP. Most people are idiots or have no understanding of technology though.

 

[M76]

I think we just have different definitions of simplicity. To me, consoles are capable of providing the ultimate simple experience: Turn on, put game in, play. A PC needs to be preconfigured for that level of simplicity to compete. I'm not saying it's can't GET there, I'm saying it takes setting up to a greater degree than a lot of console users aren't going to want to have to deal with. Even your Steamlink presupposes a gaming machine already set up and ready to go.

Yet the actual real world expereience shows that I just turn on my PC and play. But when I occasionally want to play on the console it takes 30 minutes to install 3 system upgrades, then 5 mandatory updates for the game I want to play. It's terrible. By the time I get in the game I've lost all interest. Of course this only happens if you don't play very often like me. I admit sometimes I won't turn it on for months. And auto-update is a ps+ subscription feature damn them to hell. I won't pay for a subscription when I only play once or twice a month.

FFS, the greatest strength of the PC is its flexibility. Some games work fine in the living room, some are better for a desktop configuration. PC gaming can be a streamlined experience that takes a minimum of effort once it's set up, or it can be an overly complex modded monstrosity and everything in between. That's the whole point, it can do it all. If somebody wants to play Project Cars on a big screen TV with a steering wheel in their living room with a powerful PC, that makes them a console peasant? Are you high?

Yes I actually own two steering wheels one for the big screen, and one for the desktop. and when I play on the big screen I feel like a console peasant. The point of PC gaming is to be superior to consoles. Racing games are the exception to the rule, as they play better with wheel than mouse/kb. But every other game? I loath playing with a controller. And that's my big problem with big screen gaming. And that's why I won't ever play any other PC game anywhere else but the desktop.

I think controllers are terrible contraptions whose only purpose is to drive me MAD :-D I hate them, and during my short console gaming experience I destroyed a lot of game controllers out of anger. Because I'm not able to play any game properly with them. Playing last of us alone cost me two completely destroyed dualshock controllers. That's why I'm not even inclined to buy a PS4 PRO, I'd like to check out Horizon Zero Dawn, but I know it would be the same infuriating and frustrating experience as I'm used to with consoles.

 

[homernoy]

Steam in-home streaming/Steam Link has unacceptable input lag for me and many others. I'm glad it works for you but it's not the magic bullet solution I truly wish it was. I was really psyched for the whole Steam Link idea until I actually tried in-home streaming.

You must not play any FPS, RTS, or MOBAs online if you haven't run into issues using controllers though. I tried using the Steam controller in Planetside 2 for a few days and my KDR was literally 1/20th what it was with a mouse/kb. It was just pure frustration. A lot of games work great with a controller but a lot of games just don't.

As for the "difficulty" of setting it up, of course it's really easy for most people on HardOCP. Most people are idiots or have no understanding of technology though.

I don't 'exclusively' play in the living room, but I do have Steam Link hard wired. I don't think it's functionally useful wirelessly.

Also.... I've never owned a Steam Controller.

 

[tetris42]

Yet the actual real world expereience shows that I just turn on my PC and play. But when I occasionally want to play on the console it takes 30 minutes to install 3 system upgrades, then 5 mandatory updates for the game I want to play. It's terrible. By the time I get in the game I've lost all interest. Of course this only happens if you don't play very often like me. I admit sometimes I won't turn it on for months. And auto-update is a ps+ subscription feature damn them to hell. I won't pay for a subscription when I only play once or twice a month.

I actually don't own either of the latest consoles, so I'm wondering if you're not trying to play online how much of it can be "turn it on and play" if you want it to. Honestly, I think the market is just waiting for someone to come along and make a streamlined living room PC gaming system that takes even the hint of complexity out of it for players that want that.

Yes I actually own two steering wheels one for the big screen, and one for the desktop. and when I play on the big screen I feel like a console peasant. The point of PC gaming is to be superior to consoles. Racing games are the exception to the rule, as they play better with wheel than mouse/kb. But every other game? I loath playing with a controller. And that's my big problem with big screen gaming. And that's why I won't ever play any other PC game anywhere else but the desktop.

I think controllers are terrible contraptions whose only purpose is to drive me MAD :-D I hate them, and during my short console gaming experience I destroyed a lot of game controllers out of anger. Because I'm not able to play any game properly with them. Playing last of us alone cost me two completely destroyed dualshock controllers. That's why I'm not even inclined to buy a PS4 PRO, I'd like to check out Horizon Zero Dawn, but I know it would be the same infuriating and frustrating experience as I'm used to with consoles.

Well I'm completely with you for not wanting to play some games on a controller. To this day, I can't even imagine playing a FPS that way. But a 2D platformer? Fighting game? Racing games you mentioned, Piloting games with a stick? 3D Platformers that don't require aiming? The gamepad can even be preferable for a few situations. Plus, what the hell is the problem if somebody wants to bring a tray or something and do mouse and keyboard gaming in their living room so they can be in a comfier chair? I guess my point is you're trying to suggest someone who plays on a living room PC is dirt and should just be on console, when again, the whole damn strength of the PC is you can use it for whatever you want.

 

[Stoly]

I brought this point a while ago. Can't find the thread.

Anyway I think at least we should have a choice.
There are several several techniques that can be used. I'm not a fan of dynamic resolution but I'm fine with checkerboard.
I read somewhere that Nvidia's Simultaneus multiprojection could be used to speed 4k rendering, so there's that.
Both AMD and nvidia have a temporal AA and most shader based AA have a temporal technique.
Shadow Warrior uses Nvidia Multires Shading which also increases performance albeit at a lower IQ.

 

[M76]

I guess my point is you're trying to suggest someone who plays on a living room PC is dirt and should just be on console, when again, the whole damn strength of the PC is you can use it for whatever you want.

No, I'm saying if you play in the living room you're not a PC gamer, you're a couch gamer, regardless of what device you actually run the game on.

 

[tetris42]

No, I'm saying if you play in the living room you're not a PC gamer, you're a couch gamer, regardless of what device you actually run the game on.

And here I thought you had to play on a PC to be a PC gamer. Whatever. Good luck on your quest to make the PC gaming community more insular than it already is.

 

[SomeoneElse]

I call into question this guys so called testing since the Monarch's Reign DLC update for TF 2 isn't slated for release until Today. So how did this guy get game play footage from the game if it hasn't been released? https://www.ea.com/games/titanfall/titanfall-2/news/frontier-news-network-15
Did he get some insider type access or is he blowing some smoke up our asses with this stuff? Im a huge TF2 fan so when he started showing footage from the game for the next DLC I got real skeptical......

 

[SomeoneElse]

No, I'm saying if you play in the living room you're not a PC gamer, you're a couch gamer, regardless of what device you actually run the game on.

I play my PC in my living room, at my desk, on a 27 inch 144Hz monitor, does this make me a couch gamer? My 55 inch TV is 20 feet away across the room and i can technically see both at the same time.....

 

[M76]

I play my PC in my living room, at my desk, on a 27 inch 144Hz monitor, does this make me a couch gamer? My 55 inch TV is 20 feet away across the room and i can technically see both at the same time.....

While you sit at a desk looking at a monitor you're a PC gamer, but when you sit 10-20 feet from a TV without a desk you're a couch gamer. Is that really that hard to differentiate?
Some graphics shortcuts are barely if even noticeable looking at a Tv from far away. I don't want those shortcuts becoming commonplace in PC gaming. Only if they're completely optional.
That's what I mean when I say couch gamers should have no say when it comes to PC gaming. In philosophy they're more console gamers than PC gamers. They strive for a console experience while gaming on a PC.

 

[SomeoneElse]

While you sit at a desk looking at a monitor you're a PC gamer, but when you sit 10-20 feet from a TV without a desk you're a couch gamer. Is that really that hard to differentiate?
Some graphics shortcuts are barely if even noticeable looking at a Tv from far away. I don't want those shortcuts becoming commonplace in PC gaming. Only if they're completely optional.
That's what I mean when I say couch gamers should have no say when it comes to PC gaming. In philosophy they're more console gamers than PC gamers. They strive for a console experience while gaming on a PC.

While I get what you are saying.....fundamentally its not a argument of what but who. The definition is solely based on the device not on proximity of where its used. You are talking about the type of person while everyone else is talking about the type of device.

 

[M76]

While I get what you are saying.....fundamentally its not a argument of what but who. The definition is solely based on the device not on proximity of where its used. You are talking about the type of person while everyone else is talking about the type of device.

Then let's say desktop gamer vs couch gamer. It makes no difference to me. I don't want to appropriate pc gaming. I just don't want console features to be forced upon me.

 

[Armenius]

I have no issue with either technique appearing in PC games so long as they are kept optional. I don't want to go through the era of pulling teeth like we just went through to get simple things like motion blur and chromatic aberration added to option menus instead of being forced on us. I definitely see the benefit of checkerboarding and would love to see it come to the PC ecosystem.

 

[SomeoneElse]

Then let's say desktop gamer vs couch gamer. It makes no difference to me. I don't want to appropriate pc gaming. I just don't want console features to be forced upon me.

I get it and i know what you are saying. I don't want this sort of "cheating" going on either. The PC can handle the 4k resolution where consoles are "cheating" and calling it 4k when its not. This is the same situation that we had with the cell carriers calling their networks 4G and only getting 20 mbps. The standards were clearly set and they still called the speed 4g when categorically it wasn't by standards.
Consoles have to cheat where PCs don't, and yet this guy was saying you can achieve 4k gaming on lower end cards by "cheating" the output to make it appear as close to 4k without it being 4k.