4070ti 800$ minimum...lol no thanks nvidia! My 3080 is lookin better and better everyday.

KickAssCop said:
Of course we need to tell people how to use their money. It’s our God given right!
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You are literally describing the review industry and purpose of forums.

At their core the info being given is: “is xyz worth it.” That’s regardless of if we’re talking about Avatar, carbon fiber bikes, third party car replacement parts, or GPUs. If you don’t want “opinions” on that, I would recommend never visiting a review site of any type or forums where people look for recommendations (all of them).
 
UnknownSouljer said:
You are literally describing the review industry and purpose of forums.

At their core the info being given is: “is xyz worth it.” That’s regardless of if we’re talking about Avatar, carbon fiber bikes, third party car replacement parts, or GPUs. If you don’t want “opinions” on that, I would recommend never visiting a review site of any type or forums where people look for recommendations (all of them).
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One good bit of advice I heard was, “If you already bought the product, don’t look at reviews.” I already know I’m an idiot to those that said don’t buy a 4080, but life is best when you just enjoy what you like instead of competing on who got the best deal/value.
 
ZeroBarrier said:
Haven't you heard? Nvidia bad, AMD good! Don't question it, just join the cult team red. :rolleyes:
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"Team Red" is the lesser of two evils. Nvidia is more cult like. It's followers are more than happy to pay any price for any diminishing level of performance and also like it, as well as actively defend all of their practices as if they can do no wrong. Their cult also seems to get very upset at being called a cult a terrible value.
 
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UnknownSouljer said:
You are literally describing the review industry and purpose of forums.

At their core the info being given is: “is xyz worth it.” That’s regardless of if we’re talking about Avatar, carbon fiber bikes, third party car replacement parts, or GPUs. If you don’t want “opinions” on that, I would recommend never visiting a review site of any type or forums where people look for recommendations (all of them).
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And you should also tell everyone if they should or should not visit the forums. And what they should post…
 
Essentially, GPU makers got a taste of that "good shit" money with crypto, thought it would last forever, inflated their budgets, bought new lambos, got REAL comfortable with the extremely fat profit margins... Then crypto crashed last year, demand sank overnight but they really REALLY REALLY want to continue that lifestyle. If they make sure their ASP stays high and keep it there as long as they can, eventually gamers will just act like it's normal... or at least that's their plan. Will it work? Who knows. But selling 100 cards with $1000 profit on each is the same as selling 1000 cards with $100 profit each. So it only takes a few deep pocket enthusiasts to justify these prices.
 
KickAssCop said:
And you should also tell everyone if they should or should not visit the forums. And what they should post…
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I've never stated anything like that. Quite the opposite. You will not be able to prevent anyone from not suggesting what people should do with their money. And consequently not be able to stop people from saying whatever they want to say.

KazeoHin said:
Essentially, GPU makers got a taste of that "good shit" money with crypto, thought it would last forever, inflated their budgets, bought new lambos, got REAL comfortable with the extremely fat profit margins... Then crypto crashed last year, demand sank overnight but they really REALLY REALLY want to continue that lifestyle. If they make sure their ASP stays high and keep it there as long as they can, eventually gamers will just act like it's normal... or at least that's their plan. Will it work? Who knows. But selling 100 cards with $1000 profit on each is the same as selling 1000 cards with $100 profit each. So it only takes a few deep pocket enthusiasts to justify these prices.
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Writing is on the wall that it won't. If they truly thought it would continue, then they wouldn't be slashing their TSMC orders and would be pumping the channel with as many cards as they can make. Actions speak louder than words.
 
UnknownSouljer said:
Writing is on the wall that it won't. If they truly thought it would continue, then they wouldn't be slashing their TSMC orders and would be pumping the channel with as many cards as they can make. Actions speak louder than words.
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I see where you're coming from, but I think those actions speak to "less volume, more profit"

They know they can't sell as many at these high prices as they could before, but instead of selling many products for a little profit each, they're making the same total money by selling a few products for a huge profit. This has the added benefit of keeping the prices high in the eyes of the buyers, which will soon 'normalize' the idea of cards being this expensive.

Sure, they could pump out WAY more volume and hit that supply/demand curve at a more affordable pricepoint, but that wouldn't have that added benefit. Like I stated before, 100 cards at $1000 profit makes the same money as 1000 cards at $100 profit, both are financially the same. Its now about what other benefits besides raw money each option presents.

Sure, they could have down-clocked the 4090, requiring a less expensive thermal/power delivery system, made 3x as many of them and watched them fly off the shelves for $900 each, but the margins would be low. Same overall profit but now 'the people' expect flagship cards are $900.
 
HumanBias said:
It is interesting to observe how many people have a problem with supply and demand economics in a free market.
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Interesting to observe how some people think that a company intentionally severely limiting supply to increase demand in order to increase profit margins at the expense of most customers is somehow free market.
 
SmokeRngs said:
Interesting to observe how some people think that a company intentionally severely limiting supply to increase demand in order to increase profit margins at the expense of most customers is somehow free market.
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Sounds like the company's behaving freely to me.
 
KazeoHin said:
I see where you're coming from, but I think those actions speak to "less volume, more profit"

They know they can't sell as many at these high prices as they could before, but instead of selling many products for a little profit each, they're making the same total money by selling a few products for a huge profit. This has the added benefit of keeping the prices high in the eyes of the buyers, which will soon 'normalize' the idea of cards being this expensive.

Sure, they could pump out WAY more volume and hit that supply/demand curve at a more affordable pricepoint, but that wouldn't have that added benefit. Like I stated before, 100 cards at $1000 profit makes the same money as 1000 cards at $100 profit, both are financially the same. Its now about what other benefits besides raw money each option presents.

Sure, they could have down-clocked the 4090, requiring a less expensive thermal/power delivery system, made 3x as many of them and watched them fly off the shelves for $900 each, but the margins would be low. Same overall profit but now 'the people' expect flagship cards are $900.
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That isn't working out well for them then. As GPU sales are dropping like a rock, and nVidia's share price is tanking (though it is slowly picking up over the past month or so, it's way down from its peak crypto level). If this is supposed to be their run at pumping up what they can get from the market, then it is by all definitions an abject failure.
All the whales in here who don't mind being willing participants for corporatist companies or are otherwise unaffected by GPU pricing (science, GPGPU data crunching, whatever) are buying but that's it.

They have clearly gone way too far up the supply and demand curve on the pricing side (as in it's not at equilibrium). A first year economist would say this hasn't worked out for them at all. When 4080's and 4070Ti's are sitting on shelves, silicon that is unsold, they definitely aren't profiting.
They should've just not bothered at all with the 4080 or 4070Ti. Used all of their silicon allotment to make 4090's and then doubled the price of the 4090. Clearly all the whales don't care about a $2000 card. Probably won't care about a $3500-$4000 one for the same performance either.
 
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GoldenTiger said:
Sounds like the company's behaving freely to me.
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Exactly: That's the thing, Nvidia is essentially in a defacto monopoly, but what they sell to consumers is not an essential good: it ranges from a toy to a luxury good. They can charge whatever the hell they want, because consumers can chose not to buy it. Nobody dies if they don't get their graphics card.

If AMD pulled their thumb out of their ass and actually tried to compete instead of picking up Nvidia's scraps, we may have a consumer-first free market. But at the moment Nvidia is making the rules, and is pushing to see the limits of how much people will accept to have pretty visuals when they enjoy their hobby and AMD is gladly following them taking the easy money instead of taking the opportunity to snatch up market share.

So far, they haven't found that limit.
 
HumanBias said:
So you have nothing and the free market is working fine.
And how can it be a duopoly when there is Intel, AMD and Nvidia?
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duopoly
A duopoly (from Greek δύο, duo "two" and πωλεῖν, polein "to sell") is a type of oligopoly where two firms have dominant or exclusive control over a market.
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Intel is not a player in the discrete video card market. By definition this is a duopoly "at best".
HumanBias said:
Just because you "feel" something doesn't mean it is founded in reality.
This is your subjective bias with no data to back it up and even your "argumentation" is false.
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At worst it's closer to a monopoly. And so we're clear there as well, "Standard Oil" wasn't the only oil company in existence when they got called a monopoly. "Other companies existing" doesn't mean something isn't a monopoly or duopoly. nVidia has been setting the pace and owns 70% (or there abouts) of the discrete video card market. They are very clearly in "the dominant position".

As was posted earlier in this thread, Jensen Huang saying: "You still gonna buy my shit." is a meme that underlines the fact that if you want top performance you have to buy from nVidia and there isn't a true 1:1 competitor you can buy from elsewhere.
To go to often used car analogies: Ferrari isn't the only game in town and in fact as a result of this, even in the >$100k market segment for sports cars, there is tremendous amounts of competition. As a result of this customers can get "value" at the top end as rival firms seek to outdo one another. Toyota even entered the market 10 years ago with their landmark car, the LFA, which was basically a pet project. They sold a limited number for $375k each, and literally lost money on every one sold.

This is in very stark contrast to the discrete video card market, where, again to reiterate if you want the best card it comes from one company as it has for a decade, they can charge whatever they want for it and there is no recourse. It has been incredibly bad for the market place as now it has even inflated the prices from the only other game in town.
It's obvious that they're gouging prices, being well above 100% margin. And it's also obvious if they wanted to they could've sold all of these cards for less money and simply produced more of them as they slash TSMC orders.

The part I don't get is why anyone in this thread defends nVidia. There is zero question that they make the best hardware. But they're also the definition of corporate profiteering assholes. This company showed no loyalty to gamers and actively fanned the flames of the crypto market to maximize their own profits. They have a long record of "not playing nice" with other companies, seeking to muscle their agendas into everything (their entire software stack is designed to be a barrier to entry, they intentionally never use anything open source). It's actually for this reason that the XBox and PS run off of AMD technologies, basically because nVidia corporately are jerks. They are actively bilking all of their board partners: if you haven't been paying attention this is why EVGA, arguably the best board partner ever, got out of the market. nVidia created GPP, lest we all forget, and thankfully Kyle covered.

Don't misunderstand, if AMD was in the dominant position, I'm certain they would abuse their position if left unchecked for an incredibly long time. They're a corporation too. I think it's dumb to root for or defend either of them. To do so is the height of stupidity. Make no mistake about any corporation: their only interest in us is extracting dollars. So I see ZERO benefit to not calling a spade a spade and calling out nVidia's BS. And if/when the shoe is on the other foot I'll do that for AMD too. But to me, the only way you can rationalize in your head that nVidia is "good for gamers" or "good for the community" after they have taken a dump on us repeatedly up to an including now is if you actively enjoy being a shill.
I don't blame people for buying their products either. If you want the best, you're a whale, you don't care, whatever. I get why people make the nVidia purchase, this isn't a discussion about that. If anything it's about why buying some companies product therefore has to make you "like that company" or worse "defend that company". Because I should certainly hope that after all the things I listed above that they've done and are currently doing that "your values" don't align with "their values", because their values are pretty terrible.

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Post script: There was the better part of a decade where Intel stayed on the 14nm process node, made quad core processors, and charged whatever they wanted because there was no other competition. At that same time a bunch of people called out Intel for their BS, lack of innovation, etc, was met with the same type of commentary as is found in here. People defended Intel's BS. Seriously? That's the market you actually want? You're good with nVidia being dominant, charging whatever they want, pushing terrible value, their software stack, and being dicks to gamers? How does defending anything nVidia is doing benefit you?


EDIT: Grammar/spelling, not content.
 
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