3D-Printed Gun Advocate Given Green Light to Distribute Plans to Others

EdKiefer said:
This whole 3d printed gun "ghost" is blown way out IMO.

Hell you can get 80% (AR15 lowers, Glocks, Sig's, 1911 etc) and make your own with some minor jigs
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I think the point is if you make it, you are committing a crime (assuming your state has restrictions), and certain kits that let you modify to illegal status are by virtue also illegal in said states. Now that's not to say that everything is illegal needed, get a drill press, table clamp, grinders, welding station you can fabricate just about anything illegal, but there is some underlying level of "well how easy is it" that dictates whether or not some kit is illegal, and 3d printing (or milling instructions) will make it pass into the "easy enough" category. At least with kits and what not there's some physical paper trail (or should be) that says "hey this needs to be shipped to a state that those are outlawed, *I* will be held responsible if I do this", if you just post things on the internet literally anyone gets it and there's "no" trail of evidence, even if you could do a state by state IP block.
 
sfsuphysics said:
I'm going to Vegas from San Francisco in a couple weeks, I know what I'll be smuggling over the border!!!! Just gotta make sure to wash them because you don't want to know where they were hidden!
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Levity cures what ails ya.

Hahaha good money to be made smuggling.

That's a han solo movie I'd watch.

"Chewy, that's an imperial star destroyer "TORCH THE BENDY STRAWS!"
 
Anyone else notice similarities between arguments about guns and abortions?

Personally I think it's been a good detente where both abortion and guns rights have been basically static. Regardless of my personal concerns I simply don't trust our ruling class to handle such a nuanced and complicated balance of liberty and freedom. Our leaders and the generations of boomers and millenials have proven themselves unfit to make hard selfless decisions with an eye to future consequences let alone take responseability for todays unintended consequences.

Imo such things should remain as is and a future saner unified generation is free to make changes.

Mayhaps all laws passed since the creation of cable news and blogs should be null and void?
 
To those that don't know, it's not a 3D printer, it's a CNC machine they sell to finish 80% lowers. You can buy and finish 80% lowers on your own with a drill press, the CNC just makes it easy, fast and clean. However their issue is with posting/sending the files with the machine that will finish given lowers. It's honestly beyond retarded for anyone who knows 3D printing or guns and 80% lowers. a 3D printer will not make a "gun", it can make a lower, that will be shit and last a few rounds at best, as most 3D prints are not strong at all and will deform with the kind of heat from shooting. Only information is being sent, not a part, knowledge should NEVER be illegal. Anyone who wants an a gun in a city that has heavy restriction is going to go down the street and BUY ONE, they are not going to spend a few grand on a CNC machine, and then buy a 80% lower to machine and then ALL the other parts to make the actual gun.

This is another "we don't understand guns or tech, so lets all freak out about it."
 
joobjoob said:
Anyone else notice similarities between arguments about guns and abortions?

Personally I think it's been a good detente where both abortion and guns rights have been basically static. Regardless of my personal concerns I simply don't trust our ruling class to handle such a nuanced and complicated balance of liberty and freedom. Our leaders and the generations of boomers and millenials have proven themselves unfit to make hard selfless decisions with an eye to future consequences let alone take responseability for todays unintended consequences.

Imo such things should remain as is and a future saner unified generation is free to make changes.

Mayhaps all laws passed since the creation of cable news and blogs should be null and void?
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Well, both abortion and the individual right to bear arms are constitutional rights created by the Supreme Court in acts of judicial activism, and both are certainly opposed by certain parts of the country.

The "real" underlying problem is that Democracy will almost always devolve into tribalism; moderates eventually get phased out in favor of candidates that more closely match the ideals of those most likely to vote for the party, leading to extremism. But there really isn't much you can do about it, since it's what the voters want; the middle third of the country is powerless to get moderate candidates on the ballot.

Personally, I'm very much in favor of "last chance" voting: If no candidate gets 50% of the vote, the votes for the last place candidate are re-distributed based on each voters next preferred choice; this process repeats until someone gets at least 50%. This is a major boon to third party candidates, since votes won't be wasted [EG: You could vote Green 1 Democrat 2, so if (when) the Greens lose your votes go to your next preferred candidate rather then not counting for anything] and could potentially make third parties more viable by virtue of removing the "if I vote for them my vote is wasted" stigma.
 
BlueFireIce said:
To those that don't know, it's not a 3D printer, it's a CNC machine they sell to finish 80% lowers. You can buy and finish 80% lowers on your own with a drill press, the CNC just makes it easy, fast and clean. However their issue is with posting/sending the files with the machine that will finish given lowers. It's honestly beyond retarded for anyone who knows 3D printing or guns and 80% lowers. a 3D printer will not make a "gun", it can make a lower, that will be shit and last a few rounds at best, as most 3D prints are not strong at all and will deform with the kind of heat from shooting. Only information is being sent, not a part, knowledge should NEVER be illegal. Anyone who wants an a gun in a city that has heavy restriction is going to go down the street and BUY ONE, they are not going to spend a few grand on a CNC machine, and then buy a 80% lower to machine and then ALL the other parts to make the actual gun.

This is another "we don't understand guns or tech, so lets all freak out about it."
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No, it is a fully 3D printed gun. Instead of showing off the goofy looking gun I decided to showcase their awesome CNC machine. There is a pic of the plastic gun on the first page. :)

I'm sorry if I confused you. I might just edit the video out and put the plastic gun image in there instead if it is causes this much confusion. Again I apologize.

Completely my fault. Let me get this article up and I will fix it.
 
I always say it at the table during rants.

Here goes.

Research the determinants of crime in your city and address them, not by arresting more people, but by eliminating the driving force that tipped them into making that choice.

Beyond lowering crime, bolstering mental health professional access through free clinics and destigmatization is your next bet.

No one can afford to talk to a specialists or find the time for the 2 that insurance approves....

Otherwise the bulk is suicide and its hard to convince someone out of it.

That usually riles up the crowd.
 
Sonicks said:
The right to bear arms! (but only if someone profits from it)

That's been the whole problem with this issue right? I mean gun people want little to no gun control and getting guns for free and with no restrictions over the internet seems like the jackpot.
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It's not about cheap guns, it's not about any one particular issue at all. It's about Government overreach, self-defense, and the right of a free people to do as they choose. Besides it is not free anyway; nothing about those printers are cheap considering you can get a used Hi-point for about 100 bucks that will function way longer and better than anything printable at the moment
 
No thanks. I'll stick with the real deal. I would never trust a plastic part to withstand the forces of a round being fired. Seems like a hand held potato cannon.
 
Krenum said:
No thanks. I'll stick with the real deal. I would never trust a plastic part to withstand the forces of a round being fired. Seems like a hand held potato cannon.
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You can 3D print in Metal. I'm not saying it's better than the real deal, but, definitely stronger than plastic.
 
gamerk2 said:
You ignore the first half of the second amendment:



The Second Amendment was instituted because of the Constitutional requirement allowing for a free standing army, something that was noticeably absent from the Articles of Confederation. Conservatives were worried about the possibility of the individual states being forced into submission by disarming their local militias, as the British attempted to do during the Revolution. The Second Amendment was passed to ensure this could not (legally) happen.

The Second Amendment, as written and intended by the founders, was NOT designed to protect individuals from federal/state oversight in regards to gun ownership; that narrative has been pushed almost exclusively by the NRA in order to increase gun sales. Even the current Supreme Court has made it clear that Congress/States can regulate gun sales within the limits they have set (EG: Individuals do not have unrestricted access to firearms).
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The militia stipulation is a chicken and egg argument. How would you ever have a well regulated militia if the population itself was deprived of the right to bear arms? The entire point of the 2nd Amendment is not self defense; it's for defense against the actual government of the united states.

Hamilton talks about this in Federalist 29:

"But though the scheme of disciplining the whole nation must be abandoned as mischievous or impracticable; yet it is a matter of the utmost importance that a well-digested plan should, as soon as possible, be adopted for the proper establishment of the militia. The attention of the government ought particularly to be directed to the formation of a select corps of moderate extent, upon such principles as will really fit them for service in case of need. By thus circumscribing the plan, it will be possible to have an excellent body of well-trained militia, ready to take the field whenever the defense of the State shall require it. This will not only lessen the call for military establishments, but if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens. This appears to me the only substitute that can be devised for a standing army, and the best possible security against it, if it should exist.''
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Plain english translation: We should make a really big militia and pretty much not have a standing army because a standing army would be a danger to the people. If we for some reason make a huge enormous army, the militia should be equally capable as the army. By doing this, we the people can be protected from that army becoming tyrannical.

In other words, you're right in one way that the militia really does mean militia, but you're wrong in the standpoint that basically every able bodied person in the country should be in the militia and on top of that, we should have similar weapons to whatever the full time US Army has. So if you want to literally interpret the 2nd Amendment the way the writers intended it. Not only would we all have guns in the house, we'd have fully automatic M4 carbines, grenades, tanks, night vision goggles, body armor, etc....
 
cageymaru said:
No, it is a fully 3D printed gun. Instead of showing off the goofy looking gun I decided to showcase their awesome CNC machine. There is a pic of the plastic gun on the first page. :)

I'm sorry if I confused you. I might just edit the video out and put the plastic gun image in there instead if it is causes this much confusion. Again I apologize.

Completely my fault. Let me get this article up and I will fix it.
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It is not a fully 100% printed gun, the "Liberator" can be printed, however I have yet to see one printed and hold up to shooting a single round, I have seen two that were cast polymer shoot, but even then, they have a metal firing pin and metal barrel, you are NOT going to print a full gun until metal 3D printing becomes the norm. The material used for 3D printing is just not going to hold up as a chamber/barrel or be strong enough to ignite a primer.

It also comes back to the fact you can buy a 80% lower that will be FAR stronger and useful for $80 and build out your own gun, or spend hundreds on a 3D printer, to print out a weak frame, hack together a barrel and chamber and firing pin, only to end up with a single shot pistol that MIGHT work.

As someone from Texas, and into firearms, I have been following this, media as always, has blown it way out of the water. Even talking about lack of SN and not being registered, which is not required per ATF law, even with 80% lowers/frames so long as they are for personal use and not resale.

Loop242 said:
You can 3D print in Metal. I'm not saying it's better than the real deal, but, definitely stronger than plastic.
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If you have a metal 3D printer, then you would just print a normal gun that you can already download CAD files for. However, no one is going to buy a $150,000+ metal 3D printer (for the cheapest out there), when you can just buy a gun out right.
 
Loop242 said:
1. Respect life, Defend life, All life. All life matters
The rest will fall into place after that.
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Oversimplified ideologies like this are part of the problem, hence the part about nuance in #4 of my post. Your one line fix will cause as many problems as it fixes.
 
gamerk2 said:
I'll put it this way: I'm someone who's battled various mental problems for a very, very long time. I don't trust me having access to firearms, so why should the rest of you? If I had easy access to a firearm in my younger years, I almost certainly wouldn't be having this debate right now.

I find the "If everyone had a gun" argument asinine; taken to it's logical extreme, you get "If only everyone had a nuke, all conflict would end". Funny how our international policy is the exact opposite of our domestic one...

That all being said, the real issue here is there's really no law on the books that regulates the ability of an individual or organization producing and distributing CAD files for firearms. This is the domain of legislatures; they're the ones that have to regulate this if they so choose.
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I agree with you, not everyone should have access to guns. This is one of the biggest flaws of the blanket "everyone should be packing all the time" argument.
 
I have never understood the aversion to the 3d printing of a gun. Any half decent engineering student could design these things...
 
Plastic pistol, nice design but for a .22LR you could make one cheaper with a $4 brake line, a nail and 2 rubber bands in half an hour.
How long would it take to make this expedient pistol from plastic? A day?
I would pass.
 
Ultima99 said:
Oversimplified ideologies like this are part of the problem, hence the part about nuance in #4 of my post. Your one line fix will cause as many problems as it fixes.
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Oversimplified ideologies, like everyone being civilized to everyone. Why not ask for world peace.
And we all know that civilized people can never do evil.
I agree, let kids fail, let them learn from their mistakes and how to fight/work for success. Don't just hand them success or the illusion of it. However, if they don't respect life, then that fight for success could turn ugly.


On topic:
Why is everyone talking about plastic guns. They have that nice CNC machine.
 
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This genie will never get back in the bottle.

I wonder how many folks will blow their hands apart with a chap-ass printed "gun?" LOL.

Unless you can CNC and mill it with real metal or us a real metallic 3D-printer, (SpaceX uses them to print Super Draco thrusters) which are laughably expensive you're not making a firearm worth owning.

This is for the hyper paranoid gun-humpers that give the rest of us a bad name. I just want happy trigger time at the range.
 
I thought the story was about 1st amendment right to speech , and freedom of the press ...which is freedom to publish .

We give up those rights and sign on to the whims of the corporate executives when you employ youtoob instaham ect for your sharing or ebay for your selling . My new favorite is Roseanne banned from her show because she made a not liked joke . Or the new news of certain news being suppressed on faceplace and others being optimized -- which is why you should not get your news there ... also don't believe in the fines for prohibited speech on the airwaves ..a true censure . Seems revenue driven now that it is the 21st century

Kenny
 
gamerk2 said:
The Heller decision took the Second Amendment and stretched it to expand to individuals. Regardless, the Court held that prohibitions on the sale of arms to specific individuals, licensing requirements, and the ban on certain types of weapons remain permissible.
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Correct. The Heller decision removed the often used argument from the left of belonging to a militia.
 
griff30 said:
Plastic pistol, nice design but for a .22LR you could make one cheaper with a $4 brake line, a nail and 2 rubber bands in half an hour.
How long would it take to make this expedient pistol from plastic? A day?
I would pass.
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It's not really about the time it takes.
Sure, a zip gun is cheap and easy.
It's about refining the concept now, with early-generation tools and materials.
So that when we move to later generation, higher precision tools and materials, we're not starting from scratch.
We just...iterate better.

Sure, a sintering 3D printer right now is normal end-user unobtainium.
So were plastic 3D printers 10 years ago.
 

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Oh well, at least we will be entertained by a few Darwin awards being handed out to those that print these out on cheap printers and then try to use them... A few less brain cell deficient folks removed from the gene-pool is never a bad thing.
 
Seventyfive said:
Plain english translation: We should make a really big militia and pretty much not have a standing army because a standing army would be a danger to the people. If we for some reason make a huge enormous army, the militia should be equally capable as the army. By doing this, we the people can be protected from that army becoming tyrannical.

In other words, you're right in one way that the militia really does mean militia, but you're wrong in the standpoint that basically every able bodied person in the country should be in the militia and on top of that, we should have similar weapons to whatever the full time US Army has. So if you want to literally interpret the 2nd Amendment the way the writers intended it. Not only would we all have guns in the house, we'd have fully automatic M4 carbines, grenades, tanks, night vision goggles, body armor, etc....
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No, weapons would be managed the same way they were in the 18th century: In weapons depots managed by the state, ready for use if required. It would be each states responsibility to manage it's own stockpile of weapons as well as training of standing militia forces. Basically, think modern National Guard units.
 
This has to be the most hypocritical site on the internet. It's only political if it's something you don't agree with. This isn't hardware review site, it's a fucking alt right safe space.
 
Here's something.

As mentioned in that Vice video, he can't sell what he made because he's not a firearms manufacturer. That milled lower is his and his alone - can't give it away, can't sell it.

But what if you had a bunch of those 80% lowers and your own milling machine. And you sold the 80% lower to someone else and then allowed them to rent timed access to the mill, effectively saying 'make whatever you want in these allotted hours'. Would that effectively skirt the issue?

If so, that seems realllllly flimsy.
 
CombatChrisNC said:
Here's something.

As mentioned in that Vice video, he can't sell what he made because he's not a firearms manufacturer. That milled lower is his and his alone - can't give it away, can't sell it.

But what if you had a bunch of those 80% lowers and your own milling machine. And you sold the 80% lower to someone else and then allowed them to rent timed access to the mill, effectively saying 'make whatever you want in these allotted hours'. Would that effectively skirt the issue?

If so, that seems realllllly flimsy.
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That's literally exactly how it works. It's not illegal to manufacture a firearm for personal use, and it's not illegal to rent CNC time.
 
Are the designs referenced in the article any different than what's been out on torrent for several years?
 
Thretosix said:
This has to be the most hypocritical site on the internet. It's only political if it's something you don't agree with. This isn't hardware review site, it's a fucking alt right safe space.
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You are not wrong. In the last few weeks it has been disgusting. Anti-Muslim comments, posters attempting to claim that Nazis were left wing, anti-women BS, and everything is SJW. Quite sad really.

Additionally, posting stories with a strong political connection and then expecting people to not talk politics is all kinds of stupid.
 
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Thretosix said:
This has to be the most hypocritical site on the internet. It's only political if it's something you don't agree with. This isn't hardware review site, it's a fucking alt right safe space.
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Yea, it's obviously tough for you since there aren't really many liberal leaning tech sites. You're kind of stuck with that small handful of sites like kotaku, vox, polygon, arstechnica, every sub on reddit except the_donald, the verge, tech crunch, tech radar, motherboard, wired, slashdot, ign, gamespot, venturebeat, vg247, crunchbase, n4g, destructoid, vgr, .... It's too bad your choices are so limited.

What must that feel like to have 1 or 2 sites on the internet not have mods instaban anyone with a differing opinion to you? It must be terrible.
 
gamerk2 said:
No, weapons would be managed the same way they were in the 18th century: In weapons depots managed by the state, ready for use if required. It would be each states responsibility to manage it's own stockpile of weapons as well as training of standing militia forces. Basically, think modern National Guard units.
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False. Guns were extremely prominent to the point that they were actually more prominent than bladed weapons or even bibles.

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gamerk2 said:
No, weapons would be managed the same way they were in the 18th century: In weapons depots managed by the state, ready for use if required. It would be each states responsibility to manage it's own stockpile of weapons as well as training of standing militia forces. Basically, think modern National Guard units.
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The National Guard is not a militia though. Its sold as the replacement but its very name says otherwise. Its the "dad's army" Homeguard of the USA, the homeland army. Reservists who lately have been anything but reserves, serving in foreign wars. If I recall correctly, the Federal government (the president) can now even override the requirement of getting a state governor's permission to call up the NG for any action. You are also ignoring the data like Seventyfive posted above. How does the average citizen fight back against a corrupt local/state militia if all guns are managed in state depots? A region against the state government? The state against the federal? Look into the English civil war. Who had the right to decide who can own/possess guns? The parliament or the king?

What happens if the state and its militia is defeated? You'll have a lot less effective guerrilla war/resistance as they won't have many guns. But hey, I hear the government has great super duper, effective plans for continuity of government should the bombs fall. Fallout shelters. No guns needed though.
 
Loop242 said:
You can 3D print in Metal. I'm not saying it's better than the real deal, but, definitely stronger than plastic.
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The Daniel Defense Wave and the Thermal Defense Solutions has at least one metal 3d printed suppressor.
 
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