390 the better card for longevity over 970?

Discussion in 'Video Cards' started by lightsout, Nov 20, 2015.

  1. JustReason

    JustReason razor1 is my Lover

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    Not sure how accurate any info could be on that. Even 3DMark sometimes doesn't show my OC, especially on CPUs when you use FSB and don't change the Multi from stock.
     
  2. Deathroned

    Deathroned Gawd

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    Correct me if I am wrong here but won't majority of gaming evolved titles like deus ex, tomb raider, battlefield 5 be asynchronous heavy.
     
  3. razor1

    razor1 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    There is no such thing as concurrent async compute don't make things up.

    and now you are throwing gameworks into this, what you can't stick to what you started off?

    I think you should just say what you really think, and be done with it, because at this point its obvious you are grasping at straws.

    Games will show that async compute is fine on maxwell, and you can already see it working well in AOTS benchmarks. Fable as well to a lesser degree. But AOTS there are seperate paths for both hardware, and I think I know your response is its not doing async, but its getting the same performance increases as Fiji and the cards are where they should be with performance right around the same. So if its not doing async and its still getting the same performance as Fiji based chips well that then what is? You can't say Aysnc is the future for these chips and then say AOTS when not using Async nV's hardware has the same performance increases as AMD can you?
     
  4. Toejam

    Toejam [H]Lite

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    Not sure I agree that the 290x is the obvious choice out of the three. AMD fanboy here, picked up a 970 to replace my 7970 and I've been quite happy. Enjoying the temperature, power consumption, and noise...I was willing to pay an extra $30 over the 290x price to get those categories improved.
     
  5. Toejam

    Toejam [H]Lite

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    also, just out of humor, I realize that I mentally phased out the entire argument with Razor without even intending to. Does this mean by brain has been trained to ignore dumb forum arguments? I'm evolving :D
     
  6. silent-circuit

    silent-circuit [H]ardForum Junkie

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    If you're willing to buy used wait for someone to unload a 980 on the FS/FT here. Bet you can get one if you stretch the budget just a bit. Warranty and all.

    If this thread has devolved in to a nonsensical screaming match is it appears to have, forgive my attempt to make a relevant suggestion. Have nice day.
     
  7. n=1

    n=1 2[H]4U

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  8. JustReason

    JustReason razor1 is my Lover

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    Cant say for sure but that was the talk. But look at AOS. It was the talk and come to find out it wasn't using a lot, a bit but not the level we thought. It comes down to how much they want parity in the release. As has been stated by most reasonable posters here, GE titles tend to be more impartial so if we keep with the original assumption AMD is greatly favored with async then we can likely assume they will curb the amount for more parity.

    Actually I wonder exactly what benefit in some of these titles async would give. What I garnered from the massive amount of threads and articles is a greater number of objects and such on the screen per frame.
     
  9. tybert7

    tybert7 2[H]4U

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    Talking about concurrent async + graphics workloads and gcns superior ability to handle both types of workloads in tandem.


    As for async working fine on maxwell, the oxide guys mentioned that their implementation of async compute "pales in comparison" to what some of the console guys are doing. I expect to see bigger boosts going forward once more game devs start to transfer that over to the pc. fable legends reportedly uses even less async compute than aots, so little that I think they might be able to serially schedule the compute workloads in with the graphics work and not take much of a hit.

    But yes, in both of the games where the devs have spelled out openly that their engines/games are not making heavy use of async compute to mix in the the graphics workloads, nvidia performance is right up there with amd (after a good deal of delay, I wonder if there is a radically increased effort needed to manually prop up their cards to just BARELY get parity at most gpu levels in titles with minimal mixed workloads, we might see a reversal of day 1 performance if that trend holds for maxwell cards). Do you expect that performance parity to hold for maxwell going forward? I don't.

    How's that 780ti holding up?

    I remember nvidia launching it to blunt the dominance of the 290x, and it worked, except that today it lags behind. No legs.


    With the way maxwell handles concurrent async/graphics workloads, and a shiny new pascal released in 2016, I don't expect maxwell to age well at all. And this is why it is leading people off a cliff to suggest a 970 is just as wise a purchase as a 390. For someone looking to hold the graphics card for a year or less, then it's probably fine.

    Most people are still breaking towards the 970s as the amazon sales charts show, but they made a poor decision imo, just like all those people that traded in both 780s and 290x models for 780tis. But that's one of the perks of being the apple of the gpu world. Nvidia does not have to actually be better, they just need to get people to think they're better.

    And most people do, and all it costs, is their quality of experience over time, and being forced to upgrade sooner to maintain decent gameplay in newer titles.
     
  10. Flopper

    Flopper [H]ard|Gawd

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    390 will age well.
    970 is dead in water.
     
  11. razor1

    razor1 [H]ardForum Junkie

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  12. razor1

    razor1 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    You were phased out even before that was obvious by your initial responses must be some good purple haze. :)
     
  13. Deathroned

    Deathroned Gawd

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    Why do you defend nvidia so much?. I am asking out of genuine curiosity,
     
  14. razor1

    razor1 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Its not defending its correcting assumptions based on crap marketing and false information, two different things.

    General consumers aren't expected to know indepth information about architecture, and people who post about these type of things should know what they are posting about.

    Yes I do see issues in the future where doing more async code in *certain ways* will hurt Maxwell, as with GCN architectures but its highly code dependent. GCN might have a short lived advantage because its being used in consoles but with the way Fury is set up we already see the same code that runs well on GCN doesn't give all the benefits to Fury, because Fury is getting bottlenecked somewhere. Is that future going to be coming up soon, oh yeah, because next generation architectures are going to be quite different from what we have now. Shader array structures from both AI and Pascal are going to be different, these are not renamed parts or similar parts with more units.

    Edit: Logically speaking if you want to buy something based on async performance, marketshare is what game companies base their optimizations and coding preferences on just like in any other industry, so nV cards with much more marketshare should be the better buy, but I'm not saying that, I think AMD will recapture some more marektshare (because their loss was due to availability or delayed release not in ability to compete on performance) so, either of these cards are good in the future, it just comes down to price.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2015
  15. JustReason

    JustReason razor1 is my Lover

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    Actually I think what he is alluding to is that thus far in this thread and many others you have had not one negative thing to say about Nvidia even when it is a negative aspect or point. Say the 3.5gb Vram. What bothers me most is the lie, and I mean lie not oversight. The performance impact is negligible for most but doesn't excuse Nvidias obvious attempt to not be outdone on the box against the 290/x. That is one. Or maybe GW or tessellation (akin to GW somewhat). Granted none of these warrant the mob mentality some portray but do warrant some caution.

    At any rate you are very knowledgeable when it comes to Nvidia. Though sometimes it looks like you believe whatever Nvidia prints and comments. This is likely what he refers to. Don't take it too personal it is just what some other see even though I am sure it is not what you intend.
     
  16. a3venom

    a3venom Gawd

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    When you compare GPUs and want to decide which one you want to buy, only capability you need is for your brain to be able to read numbers and tell which number is greater out of a set of two. (FPS)
    anything else is irrelevant, there could be a magic gnome under that heatsink or a potato rendering those pixels, what technology, year etc they use is not relevant to the common user.
    So posting these things just confuses the op (any op) and destroys the point of him/her asking for your opinion on GPUs.
     
  17. razor1

    razor1 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I don't have anything negative to say about the 390x outside of power consumption. Which we haven't even discussed yet. So what the fuck is that? You want me to talk about power consumption comparisons too? I don't see much difference between the 390x and the gtx 970, one has more ram which probably won't come in handy as bottlenecks shift with newer games towards shader performance, we have seen this time and time again with newer games. We can't really discuss async because one of the parties that wants to discuss it tends to be clueless on basic terminology let alone actually understanding of it so that person should differ to someone who knows what the hell is going instead of using generalized marketing statements which are in no way correct, or using misunderstood technical documents which its incomprehensible to him because he doesn't even know the terminology.

    And I'm very knowledgeable on both architectures, but I still defer to others who know more than me as well when the time arises. Which I haven't seen people who want to throw async out there as a buying option do, they should really know what they are talking about before they talk about it.

    Hence my first post in this thread
    http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1041984019&postcount=2

    It all comes down to price, what the fellow posters want me to say is async is screwed up on nV hardware because X, Y, Z told us so in an article, which is not correct because the author's of those articles didn't have the correct information and didn't have the technical background to ask the proper questions to get those answers. If you go back to my discussion of this async topic with Mahigan who brought this topic to light, I was asking questions, and reading documentation, and figure out what was going on because there wasn't enough information or the information wasn't straight forward in one document. So it took a few days to put the information together with other peoples input on the subject.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2015
  18. chrcoluk

    chrcoluk [H]ard|Gawd

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    yeah but most 970s are sold pre overclocked.

    People can hit 1450+ on a pre overclocked 970 without touching anything.

    Regarding stuttering, I have seen on a few occasions where I havent rebooted for many weeks stutter in games, which is fixed by a reboot, I believe this happens because the vram gets fragmented over time and eventually the only large free vram is in the slow 0.5gig.

    Otherwise I have been lucky to not have any stuttering caused by my 970 and even with nvidia been assewipes its a good card.

    I think also nvidia will eventually back down on freesync but they will milk gsync for as long as possible, just remember freesync isnt on all monitors, for some reason its been sold as a premium feature.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2015
  19. evilsofa

    evilsofa [H]ardForum Junkie

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    This lie must bother you even more, since it actually resulted in a lawsuit.
     
  20. tybert7

    tybert7 2[H]4U

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    Razor is obviously putting up a defense of his preferred card vendor. Nvidia. He keeps shifting the goal posts, the big flap was about gcn being able to handle both graphics and async compute workloads concurrently. Now he's trying to laser focus attention on just the compute part being able to execute fine as if that was the issue. The entire power of the flap was that maxwell cards have to be engaged in either compute or graphics workloads more serially than amd gcn cards are capable of. Everything else he says on this point is hand waving to try to save face for nvidia. Like the attempts at disqualification he engages in by saying anyone without intimate technical knowledge of the inner workings understands nothing, so stay silent.

    Talk about nvidia getting similar performance using other code paths that do NOT rely as heavily or at all on mixed compute/graphics workloads is a dodge to divert attention away from maxwells handicap.

    Talk about marketshare and the lower likelihood of game devs to implement more advanced mixed compute/graphics effects is another dodge, more attention taken away from the handicap. He never mentions the higher cost of context switching that will lead to reduced latency in vr on gcn cards, it's all diversion diversion diversion.

    Most of his time is spent running cover for nvidia. For my part, I spend a lot of time offering SOME defense and cover for amd, in part because I'm one of their fans who wants to see them do well but more importantly, I want to counteract the fear and uncertainty over amd products that is rampant all over the net. Most of the reason the sales of certain nvidia cards are so lopsided is because of his kind of nvidia boosting all over the place.
     
  21. tybert7

    tybert7 2[H]4U

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    Like I said earlier, for people that intend to heavily overclock their cards, the 970 is probably a better bet. I don't think that is anywhere close to most people, but for those that want to they can go that route.

    On the freesync side, I think nvidia will refuse to support freesync so long as they have the kind of dominant marketshare they have. They will milk the additional fees gained from the gsync monitors for both increased revenue and a desire for greater lockin/costs associated with switching to a competing brand like amd. New amd card does better in a certain price bracket? But oh wait... that expensive gsync monitor won't get any benefits, better stick with an nvidia card.

    It's quite transparent. Unless and until nvidia pays a cost for limiting their cards to gsync displays, they won't change. And I don't expect them to need to anytime soon based on the apple like devotion of so many of their fans.

    But there will come a time when building an amd system from scratch will cost up to hundreds less for similar performance once the cost differential for a gsync display vs a freesync display is factored in. Or the same price with a persons budget with amd allowing them to spend less on the monitor and more on the gpu.

    Those who choose the amd path will have better performance, better experiences on all but the top end where price is no issue. Nvidia users on a budget will suffer. Will that be enough to make them care? It hasn't so far.
     
  22. JustReason

    JustReason razor1 is my Lover

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    In all actuality so did the 970, but however there isn't a single sane rational adult that thinks that AMD core count lawsuit has merit.
     
  23. noko

    noko [H]ardness Supreme

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    Cores of the past never even had FP units. Lawsuit is without merit, FX processors (consumers) have up to 8 integer cores. Just running simple tests with multi threaded programs/benchmarks using Windows Affinity to run 4 threads on four modules and 8 threads on 4 modules (8 cores) will show about a 80% increase in performance, like CineBench. If those were not separate cores then that would be impossible for that performance gain. AMD should sue this idiot for a false lawsuit.
     
  24. goldy

    goldy [H]ard|Gawd

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    Nobody was "quoting" COD. A benchmark was posted to show that some newer games like BO3 have exhibited higher VRAM usage.

    And that video is of the last gen title, which uses around 3.4GB vram at 1080p if you look at benchmarks. So it doesn't make sense to say there is no difference when trying to make your point, as that amount wouldn't bottleneck either the 970 or 390.
     
  25. Disposed

    Disposed [H]ardness Supreme

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    Dude just today a deal came across slickdeals for an r9 390 for $225
    3 days ago there was one on sale for $230


    The kicker is how you are going on about how last week there was an amazing deal for a 970 at $250 there was a short lived deal for a 390 at $201...

    People really are acting like the 970 is the only one that goes on sale.

    That said i would think about it. The VRAm difference is questionable. Im willing to bet the 970 will perform admirably at 1080p for quite a while to come. At 1440P its a different matter, especially going into the future. At 1440P especially if you plan on going SLI/CF later on that VRAm become even more of a difference.
     
  26. Disposed

    Disposed [H]ardness Supreme

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    3.4GB could very easily bottleneck the 970 and its 3.5GB of VRAM the second that usage tipped over to 3.5GB.
     
  27. Disposed

    Disposed [H]ardness Supreme

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    It comes down to more than price, especially with games already maxing the VRAM on the 970, 2016 could literally crush that card into obsolescence, especially at higher resolutions.
     
  28. Lorien

    Lorien [H]ardness Supreme

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    Last edited: Nov 27, 2015
  29. Final8ty

    Final8ty Gawd

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    Spot on.
     
  30. Final8ty

    Final8ty Gawd

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    Its already happening.

    http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18704498&page=2
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2015
  31. razor1

    razor1 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    most of the 970 come with 2 free games and are priced around 280 after a rebate, so even if one of those games is something the consumer is looking for they are getting the card for 230, and this is happening for the past 2 or 3 months, the 970 has been less expensive than the 390 on average. Yeah there was a black Friday sale on the 390 for $201 but it was done in a few hours, I got an email from a friend but by that time it was done.

    So right now the 390 and 970 are equally priced, but the 970 you still get those games, if those games are something the consumer will play its more money in their pocket.

    SLI and Cross fire later will not be good for this generation. The reason for this Pascal and AI will have double the theoretical shader performance (actually usage of the shader ALU will go up based on architecture) with double the vram per card, high end cards are going to be coming with 16gb of ram and double the flops for single precision. Neither the 390 or the 970 will fair well in next gen games at higher resolutions even in multi card solutions the 390 with 8 gigs will have a better chance than the 970 I guess, but its not something I would bet on. This is a major upgrade in graphics cards which should have happened with 20nm so it is going to look like what happened with the g80 release, it pretty much rendered the 7900 and x1900xt multicard solutions obsolete over night. This gen will probably be even more because there are two node changes (we can look at it as 1.5 because of the half node) that these companies are jumping.

    These two node changes are important, because both these companies are going try to out do the other, they aren't going to make small chips and save on money they are going to put as much as they can into this next gen GPU's.

    When you are gambling on the future you better look at everything that is going on instead of the just the past, otherwise you will get burned. I got burned with the 7800gt sli, and that was the last time I ever touched multi graphics solutions. Partially because it wasn't future proof and mostly because of issues with multi adapters.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2015
  32. razor1

    razor1 [H]ardForum Junkie

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  33. cocdod

    cocdod [H]Lite

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    Not surprised to see AMD lowering the price of the 390, the 970 easily outperforms it and was already priced lower than it.
     
  34. razor1

    razor1 [H]ardForum Junkie

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  35. Brackle

    Brackle Old Timer

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    All these discounts NV and AMD is starting is telling me 1 thing.

    Get rid of the old stock for the new 14/16nm tech coming out.

    I would hold out unless you need a card now.
     
  36. razor1

    razor1 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Yep was going to say the same thing.
     
  37. TaintedSquirrel

    TaintedSquirrel [H]ardForum Junkie

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    See my response:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/commen...l_gpu_prices_including_r9_fury_x_fury/cxdmegw

    In summary... They are Black Friday sales. The same sales also being applied to Nvidia GPUs, which are in some cases cheaper.

    http://wccftech.com/nvidia-cuts-prices-900-serie/

    It also seems WCCF edited their headline for those articles. The original was something like "AMD issues price cuts". It now simply says "Holiday price cuts".
     
  38. lightsout

    lightsout [H]ard|Gawd

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    Ended up grabbing a 970, nvidia experience has always been better for me and evga has always treated me well so its win win!
     
  39. tybert7

    tybert7 2[H]4U

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    bookmarked


    It will be interesting to see how these cards stack up over 2016. For now, apple wins.
     
  40. xarin

    xarin n00b

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    In what fucking dimension?