3200 or 3733 for upcoming Zen 2?

Discussion in 'Memory' started by tangoseal, Jun 12, 2019 at 1:45 AM.

  1. tangoseal

    tangoseal [H]ardness Supreme

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    I've never ran faster than 3200.

    And with all the marketing jazz AMD is putting out concerning the upcoming Ryzen 3000 series and its support of high clocked memory, what do you guys that know memory very well think?

    Is 3733 going to make a noticeable difference over say 3200?

    According to AMD the lowest memory latency for the newly redesigned IMC on Ryzen 3000 is going to be around 3733 mhz ram.Im not talking about CAS latency, but this:

    d24hymdbbm331.png

    So any opinions, would it make a difference in gaming/productivity/video work etc... over 3200?

    The price is substantially more.
     
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  2. Keljian

    Keljian Limp Gawd

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    Look there'll be a benefit in 3733C17 vs 3600c16. AMD recommends the latter, but you'll get a small bump with the former. 133mhz when you're talking 3600mhz is a very small amount.
     
  3. Lepardi

    Lepardi Limp Gawd

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    Does 3200C16 memory in general overclock to 3600C16 by just raising the frequency?

    It's ridiculous how a 32GB 3200C16 set costs about 160e, while 32GB 3600C16 costs you 370e
     
  4. JRZoid

    JRZoid n00b

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    ^ nooo..that kit blowsss and is literally unstable after 3200mhz...

    You need something like the Trident Z kit and specifically state that it IS capable of some OC headroom etc.
     
  5. dasa

    dasa Limp Gawd

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    I have two 3200c14 G.Skill kits capable of 3866c16 with 1.45v so if you are willing to take the time to OC you don't have to spend extra for speeds over 3200c14 unless you want high binned kits to push further.

    As for the difference it will improve CPU performance probably as much as overclocking the CPU itself.
    But only in programs that are sensitive to memory speed so not cinbench but most games and photoshop\lightrrom
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019 at 7:49 AM
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  6. OnceSetThisCannotChange

    OnceSetThisCannotChange [H]Lite

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    Manually tweaking timings could net you up to 20% above default XMP on Zen+ with a few games and on average the gain was around 10%, highly likely that 3733 with tight timings will be worth it for latency sensitive programs.
     
  7. tangoseal

    tangoseal [H]ardness Supreme

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    My problem is knowledge. Is there a beginner's guide to ram tweaking?
     
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  8. workshop35

    workshop35 Gawd

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  9. kirbyrj

    kirbyrj [H]ard as it Gets

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    Let's be realistic. Could you really tell the difference anyway? I mean it's not like we're talking about 2133Mhz DIMMs here. I mean RAM speed is probably the worst use of extra upgrade money.

    Personally, I'm looking at the $160 DDR4 3600 2x16GB G.Skill kit and then trying to tighten the timings manually.
     
  10. Aluminum

    Aluminum Gawd

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    If you plan to manually dial in the best timings at the highest 1:1 clocks possible, the ideal kit to buy is 3600C15 SR. Not cheap, but some of the lowest latency b-die out there. As far as I know there is only one Gskill SKU for this. There are some technically lower latency 4000+ b-die kits but they cost the moon and given AMD's info so far going for >3733 speeds is only for bragging rights, not actual performance.

    3200C14 dual rank (16GB) might be pretty good too as that is one of the lowest latency DR kits to be had, supposedly Zen2 will be more friendly to DR and more populated configurations this time around. At equal speeds and timings DR slightly outperforms SR.

    While there are othernon-samsung based kits out there that will clock up high, b-die is still best because nothing touches it on latency. So if you care, once again, stick to samsung :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2019 at 1:28 PM
  11. tangoseal

    tangoseal [H]ardness Supreme

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    Isn't the difference between 3200 and 3600 400mhz effective, so wouldn't that imply another 5 or 6% uptick in gaming performance?
     
  12. dasa

    dasa Limp Gawd

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    For me tweaking 3200c14 to up 3866c16 yielded up to 7% increase in CPU performance for games that were running around 70-80FPS
    Combined with the 6.4% I gained from overclocking the 6700k to 4.7GHz added up to a 13.4% increase in CPU performance for games.

    Since Ryzen memory interface has latency problems it spends more time waiting on the RAM than Intel 1151 combined with the gains from overclocking the infinity fabric and it all adds up.

    But spending cash on CPU\RAM\MB\Cooling while skimping on the GPU for a high res monitor is not wise.
     
  13. tangoseal

    tangoseal [H]ardness Supreme

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    Can you share a lamens method of such a tweak? I.e. set X to Y and then try A to B etc...

    About your post ... I think the latency issues are now history with zen 2 hence the huge IPC gain of 15% give or take. Well see.
     
  14. dasa

    dasa Limp Gawd

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    It is a slow process but here was the result for the tuned timings on my system vs the stock.
    It also required increased v to the RAM and IMC.
    Basically start with frequency and primary timings and once you have that stable you can probably halve your secondary timings and hope that your MB does a decent job of handling the tertiary timings.
    aida64%203866c15.jpg
    86cabae0_6700k204.720xmp-3200c14.jpg

    One of the most important things is a good stability test there is some good info on that here
    https://www.overclock.net/forum/10-...-ryzen-ddr4-24-7-memory-stability-thread.html
    and here for Intel
    https://www.overclock.net/forum/5-i...-intel-ddr4-24-7-memory-stability-thread.html

    Unstable RAM can corrupt your OS so it is good to run Linux form a USB boot and use GSAT for preliminary stability testing.
    I found GSAT to find RAM related errors quicker than anything else but it didn't make the IMC work very hard so it could still be unstable which is where HCI comes in it is great for finding IMC errors and the DRAM calculator has made it a lot easier to launch multiple instances for testing.
     
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  15. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    As good as Zen / Zen+ guides can be, Zen 2 is going to be a completely different animal.

    tangoseal, we're going to have to wait for in-depth looks to see how Ryzen 3000-series CPUs are affected by memory. Higher clockspeeds may not be as useful as tighter timings, and neither may have the impact that we've seen in previous generations, if AMD has implemented the improvements they've announced.
     
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  16. tangoseal

    tangoseal [H]ardness Supreme

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    IdiotInCharge

    I'm going to build a 100% gaming rig with a 12 core that can do productivity on the side. So I'm all about extracting every ounce of performance.
     
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  17. workshop35

    workshop35 Gawd

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    It should be really interesting seeing how this plays out in a month. The price difference between 3000/3200 and 3600+ ram is pretty big. I can get 32gb of 3000 15/16/16 for $130 vs 16gb of 3600 16/18/18 for $137, it would be nice if the slower stuff oc'd to within range of the faster (and if ryzen2 plays nice with 4 DIMMs).
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2019 at 12:35 AM
  18. Alienslare

    Alienslare [H]Lite

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    There is almost 533mhz difference. For a normal eye its not noticeable even if you go uptil 4000mhz

    But for me 533mhz will make a difference in applications. But it does depend om the size of memory and how much it’s consuming.
     
  19. kirbyrj

    kirbyrj [H]ard as it Gets

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  20. tangoseal

    tangoseal [H]ardness Supreme

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  21. workshop35

    workshop35 Gawd

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    I would guess hynix but I'm no expert.

    I've been hearing more about Micron e-die recently, and they set an ln2 world record a few weeks back. No frag harder discos but its 3600 with what looks like better timings

    https://www.newegg.com/ballistix-32gb-288-pin-ddr4-sdram/p/N82E16820164150
     
  22. dasa

    dasa Limp Gawd

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    3600c15 and c16 are b die and maybe c17 on some 32gb kits but anything over that is unlikely.
    3600c19 probably has higher final latency 3200c16 and may be using the same chips.
     
  23. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Basic Newegg search, and you'll want to check independent reviews as well as pricing at other retailers.
     
  24. Aluminum

    Aluminum Gawd

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    I have a metric shitton of samsung b-die kits: both the branded gskill and team stuff with bling, and a bunch of unbuffered ECC as well. Ever since Ryzen came out and shit on all the random Micron/Hynix/Whatever spare kits I had, I haven't bought any other brands of IC. All combined, I'm over a terabyte for sure.

    Going to be a launch X570 builder because hobby is fun, I intend to put some of these kits through their paces. 3600C15 SR 2x8 & 4x8 and 3200C14 DR 2x16 are on the top of my list to try out for best possible settings. If Zen 2 is DR friendly I will see if 4x16 is still doable when high & tight, if the stars align then 64GB at 3733C14 or similar bleeding edge would be pretty damn neat.
     
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  25. tangoseal

    tangoseal [H]ardness Supreme

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    I just used the Ryzen Ram Tool program or whatever it is called and just for fun on my 2400g ... took my gskill C-die Hynix from 16 to 14 cas and gained like 20+FPS or more in Games using a 1070ti. It really helped the little 4 core feed the GPU more, alot more in fact.
     
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  26. gigatexal

    gigatexal [H]ardness Supreme

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    I’m springing for the 16 core beast to do the same thing and up to now have never thought about manually doing anything other than XMP. This thread has got me thinking.
     
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  27. Pieter3dnow

    Pieter3dnow [H]ardness Supreme

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    This is the tool Tangoseal used:
    https://www.techpowerup.com/download/ryzen-dram-calculator/

    If you decrease a bottleneck then you will get results. But it is harder to say that the same metric applies to cpu with more cores because that bottleneck is not there. That does not mean you won't get better results from lower speed ram but there much less noticeable. That is why people tend to use certain benchmarks to display numbers rather then real life game play.
     
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