2405fpw LCD vs. CRT - 40ms signal delay / latency for LCD users ?!?

Yes.

Even my 2001fp has such a lag on the LCD as well. While there is no ghosting that I can see I can feel that the output is laggy by just a tiny second.

Quite poor on dell's part by not fixing it.

This kinda turns me to think I should get an ACD 23" instead ;S
 
I'm not doubting that people experience this lag, but it seems to be only affecting some users. I can clearly see it if I clone a CRT and place it side by side with my 2405, but once I get into the game, it seems to "disappear."

I think flying choppers and fast jets in BF2 would surely expose the lag problem, if it existed on my monitor/machine.
 
Kevlarman said:
I'm not doubting that people experience this lag, but it seems to be only affecting some users. I can clearly see it if I clone a CRT and place it side by side with my 2405, but once I get into the game, it seems to "disappear."

I think flying choppers and fast jets in BF2 would surely expose the lag problem, if it existed on my monitor/machine.
Click to expand...

Considering I do alot of piloting in BF2, believe me I WOULD notice if something was causing me to miss alot but as such, I continue to kick Iraq and China air butt.
 
Put it this way there is no delay on my panel, if anyone is experiencing problems then you have a faulty unit. Yes a CRT has zero lag but unfortunetly CRT qualities will never make it to LCD's, only SED will be the technology to merge the advantages of both CRT's and LCD's (forget PLASMA, OLED, etc.. these all have major downsides in one way or another).
 
kleox64 said:
Put it this way there is no delay on my panel, if anyone is experiencing problems then you have a faulty unit.
Click to expand...


What numbers did you come up with and tell us the conditions of your testing?
 
Just had mine delivered yesterday..

Wonderful unit and does a nice job on gaming but this morning when I tried to bring everything back to life by wiggling my mouse and hitting enter on my keyboard the display remained black and in the standby state. I had to reboot my computer (WinXP Home) to get the computer to work again. Anyone know what's up with that?

RE: Gaming issue.... I loaded FEAR last night and although I keep setting the game to display at 1600 X 1200 it keeps going back to a lower resolution when the game starts. There isn't a setting in F.E.A.R. for the monitors native resolution of 1920 X 1200, is that why?

Dell "Airborne Express" shipping issue: I bought this monitor directly from Dell which is a wonderful company with great products but I never received a tracking code from them to know when to expect it and it showed up on my doorway when I was out of town. If I had known it was going to deliver yesterday I would have had someone at the house to answer the door for it instead of having it sit outside in freezing temperatures where anyone who wanted it could have walked off with it!
 
Hey Alaskan, does it have a WOW factor when you first get it up and running? Congratulations...

Check out Widescreen Gaming Forum (second post) to run F.E.A.R at the native resolution. Basically, it's just modifying an .ini file in one of your user directories. If the file keeps getting rewritten, change the properties of the ini file to "read only".
 
Pyrolistical said:
I made a better timer in Java that's better than 0.1 ms (1/10000th of a second).

My digi-cam isn't around yet, but if anybody wants to try it now here's the code:

Code: 
public class ConsoleTimer {
    public static void main(String[] args) {
        long start = System.nanoTime();
        
        while(true) {
            System.out.println(System.nanoTime() - start);
            System.out.flush();
        }
    }
}

To run it use:
Code: 
javac ConsoleTimer.java
java ConsoleTimer

You'll have to have the Java 1.5 SDK installed of course.



And if your gonna do the test make sure you:
Set 2405FPW to 1600x1200, non-scaling 1:1
Set CRT to 1600x1200 @ 60Hz
Set your camera to less than 1/60
Click to expand...

You CANNOT use Java for any real-time stuff. For instance, there's GC running every now and then (which makes the execution pause), so you really have no control over how long things actually take.
 
Your tests can show whatever they want to, but I watch lots of action/fast paced movies and extensively fly helicopters and jets in BF2 and I have yet to notice any 'tearing' or 'ghosting' or 'lag'.
 
I've been using my 2405 for about 6 months now and I can report that I have noticed this issue too. The thing is, I knew about it beforehand and was looking for it.

The thing that really made it apparent was when my brother, who normally uses a CRT, sat down at my computer and immediately started complaining about the "laggy mouse". He noticed it immediately.

So I hooked up a CRT to my screen and was instantly suprised at the responsiveness of the CRT versus the LCD.

I find it highly unlikely that this is an issue affecting only some displays. The hardware inside the displays will be clocked at the same frequencies, so the latency difference between each unit should be pretty much the same... no 40ms discrepencies at least!

I don't really mind most of the time, but I find I get frusterated playing fast paced FPS's like Quake IV and Unreal since I know that I would be performing better with a CRT :(
 
Da Frechman said:
Hey Alaskan, does it have a WOW factor when you first get it up and running? Congratulations...

Check out Widescreen Gaming Forum (second post) to run F.E.A.R at the native resolution. Basically, it's just modifying an .ini file in one of your user directories. If the file keeps getting rewritten, change the properties of the ini file to "read only".
Click to expand...

Thanks.. Yes it has a high wow factor, nicer than any monitor I have seen except for the large screen LCD's for Apple computers which are in a class of their own. If a CRT monitor could be made with a small foot print and with the color of this unit I would prefer it for responsiveness, but this will have to do. No one in my family are super skilled game players, we like to play games like Tribes so a super fast pace isn't usually part of the game for us. With so much space for the mouse to cover now I am going to have to increase the mouse speed a bit as it comes off as slow due to the amount of time it now takes to go from far left to far right.
 
iddqd said:
You CANNOT use Java for any real-time stuff. For instance, there's GC running every now and then (which makes the execution pause), so you really have no control over how long things actually take.
Click to expand...

This is just an informal test. I don't need to the dot precision.
 
Ummagumma said:
Hi IceWind! :)
Are you saying that you cannot reproduce the example that he showed on your 2405fpw?

Edit: 40ms is much for FPS players (can throw the game totally off) and if he is correct, it means that you must press fire 40ms BEFORE the target gets into aim. It has nothing to do with the response time. If this is true, he has done the community a big favor in discovering and documenting this and its not about bashing the 2405 even though you don't like the information.
I read his previous post a long time ago, and there they only tried to make excuses about faulty VGA port. This time he produced it with the DVI port as well and it would be interesting to know if the same thing happens on other 2405fpw's as well! He has gone to great lenght to prove his points and validate his claims and that should we be greatful for. If this is not fact, then prove him wrong!:D
Click to expand...

i agree! and that is why i returned my 2405.. funny, when I was trying to make this point some people were almost insulting me.. hehe people get soo personal when they own something that you are not satisfied with.
 
I replaced my 2405FPW with a FW900 CRT. I started reading about things like this months ago, and I didn't want to check. It would have just made me that much more anxious that my USED CRT was in good shape when I was waiting to receive it. The blur, the more noticable tearing, then this would have just flipped me out. Yeah I know, pick on my post if you want, I didn't hard test it. CRT's ain't dead that's all. Glad everyone doesn't want them anymore. Gets us ebay $325 shipped sweetness. Not only is the gaming superior, I didn't know FEAR and CoD2 and such were going to come out and kick the beejus out of my $500 graphics card at 1920*1200. Flexibility reigns.
 
hey gustep12, could you retest excpt put the 2405 on the VGA port?
I've heard from many people that the 2405s lag on div but not on vga
 
killa62 said:
hey gustep12, could you retest excpt put the 2405 on the VGA port?
I've heard from many people that the 2405s lag on div but not on vga
Click to expand...

I doubt it. I've done a test at work and seen the lag with the component inputs. :( VGA is the same analog stream pretty much over a different output.

Ugh.
 
So no one has tested this with the 2405 at 1920x1200, on the VI, with the monitor driver

VS

CRT set optimally?



Also compare video cards, maybe one is worse than another at exploiting this "lag"?


I play BF2, Freelancer, Doom 3, NFS U2, and UT and see no lag with mine after upgrading from a 19" NEC
 
I was going to pull the trigger on a 2405 but this is giving me pause. To the people saying they havent noticed this playing BF2, I have not noticed that game being a toe to toe quick draw like other FPS I have played. I know when I was a heavy MOHAA gamer, 40 ms ping was huge. All things equal, they guy with the higher ping is going down. That hasn't been the feel of BF2 to me.

Are there any other discussions of this topic floating around? I would be curious to read them. Also, has this been looked at on the 2005?
 
please do a full on review of this, I noticed that if you look further down on the first page there is 2 lcd's, dell and i think a samsung, they bolth show a diffrent frame. this seems to me that the diffrent lcds have better or worse "lag". I think it would make a greate articale if you all wrote up on this, maby comparing them to crt's that can support the same res.

Thanks
Bob
 
To the people saying they havent noticed this playing BF2, I have not noticed that game being a toe to toe quick draw like other FPS I have played.
Click to expand...

That's true if you're ground-pounding, but as soon as you jump into a jet or attack chopper, the 40ms lag would make it very difficult to fly. Something that myself nor IceWind has not noticed.

I don't know if it's the entire 2405 line, or just a fluke with some of them...
 
Kevlarman said:
That's true if you're ground-pounding, but as soon as you jump into a jet or attack chopper, the 40ms lag would make it very difficult to fly. Something that myself nor IceWind has not noticed.

I don't know if it's the entire 2405 line, or just a fluke with some of them...
Click to expand...

Trust me, I WOULD know if this monitor was throwing my aim off, especially in BF2.

Case in point, HL2 deathmatch is as quick as they come and I have no problem getting in the top 5 scores on most servers.

As such, they can continue on their "lag" crusade for all I care, im happy and thats all I really care about, me.
 
I have a few CRTs and a few LCDs around the house. ALL of the LCDs have that delay, every single one. I think these guys saying they don't have lag are just used to it. I get used to it when I'm using my laptop regularly. It's fine to game on, you learn to compensate, but it's enough that it completely threw off my friend for a little while. We now hook the laptop up to a 17" CRT if we're gaming with it and the other LCDs are on office/web machines only.

Watch a movie on it, you'll notice synch issues on the lips of the characters. I know everyone wants to justify their purchases, but LCDs have some way to go and I was left very unimpressed after reading about the 2405fpw. My friend went with a Samsung instead which seems to have less of a delay.
 
Disarray said:
I was going to pull the trigger on a 2405 but this is giving me pause. To the people saying they havent noticed this playing BF2, I have not noticed that game being a toe to toe quick draw like other FPS I have played. I know when I was a heavy MOHAA gamer, 40 ms ping was huge. All things equal, they guy with the higher ping is going down. That hasn't been the feel of BF2 to me.

Are there any other discussions of this topic floating around? I would be curious to read them. Also, has this been looked at on the 2005?
Click to expand...

You'd definitely notice it in BF2 if you flew helicopters or jets. I also play HL2 DM occasionally and that's pretty fast paced. Zero lag issues so far.
 
bobstone said:
please do a full on review of this, I noticed that if you look further down on the first page there is 2 lcd's, dell and i think a samsung, they bolth show a diffrent frame. this seems to me that the diffrent lcds have better or worse "lag". I think it would make a greate articale if you all wrote up on this, maby comparing them to crt's that can support the same res.

Thanks
Bob
Click to expand...


A DP930SB is from Mitsubish. Its a 19" Amp Grill CRT capable of 1600x1200@85Hz.

Its not the Samsung LCD 930sb (which I think they intentionally used that name to confuse people, since the DP930SB was the 19" CRT for its time.)
 
I guess this puts a big crush on gaming LCD notebooks.... unless they build a CRT version, lol.
 
Alaskan said:
I guess this puts a big crush on gaming LCD notebooks.... unless they build a CRT version, lol.
Click to expand...

Yeah, if that were the case Alienware and Falcon would have gone outa business as a result of poor sales of their gaming laptops :rolleyes:

I swear, someone people are really good at jumping on conclusion bandwagons.
 
InternationalHat said:
Watch a movie on it, you'll notice synch issues on the lips of the characters. I know everyone wants to justify their purchases, but LCDs have some way to go and I was left very unimpressed after reading about the 2405fpw. My friend went with a Samsung instead which seems to have less of a delay.
Click to expand...


I had that problem under the analog port with i the monitor being labeled "default monitor", switching to DVI and installing the dell 2405 driver fixed that.
 
kleox64 said:
1) The 2405 has to be run using DVIat its native resolution (1920 x 1200) for minimum lag/delay.

This is where your delays are coming from, also make sure your using the Dell monitor driver.
Come back and report your results only when ALL the above is true, otherwise your results are just c**p.

2) The clone feature on Nvidia cards introduces a delay anyway when two displays are connected.
Click to expand...
YES that makes sense ... but 2 months back I read opposite experiences 2405 review. Faster response with VGA, but lack of image quality. The guy settles on DVI and learned to live with delay.

DVI ... I know nothing of the inner working of DVI signaling, I'm gonna guess it works as a serial bus. Compare it to SPDIF Optical TOSLINK bus or COAX as an example. SPDIF and COAX are prone to jitter, which causes distortion of signal spikes and if severe anough the CRC wont match at the end of the frame, the signal must be resent or ignored. On a HomeTheater receiver or a DAC this causes a pop or a mute for a second. Jitter by itself causes faint high frequency distortions. Hard for me to understand that , but whatever... audiophiles swear by it.

DVI must have similar problems. What we see on the screen depends on the error correction of DVI signaling, etc. This is why you may see inconsistent lag times in your comparisons.

SO we should demand a new INTERCONNECT format!
 
I don't get it, those that just swear they'd feel it, don't have a 19" CRT tank to test against? Afraid, I get it. Just there are vidoes of it on the net, and the typical response is I'm on the top 5 in BF2. Wow so? AS was said maybe 40 ms is high, but 17 to 20ms, I dunno guys check. I sold my 2405. Should have done this. It would be cloned 1920*1200, but then it would be a fluke or something if the results came out bad.
 
texuspete00 said:
I don't get it, those that just swear they'd feel it, don't have a 19" CRT tank to test against? Afraid, I get it. Just there are vidoes of it on the net, and the typical response is I'm on the top 5 in BF2. Wow so? AS was said maybe 40 ms is high, but 17 to 20ms, I dunno guys check. I sold my 2405. Should have done this. It would be cloned 1920*1200, but then it would be a fluke or something if the results came out bad.
Click to expand...


Are you saying both mine and gustep12's results are invalid?

We both used a CRT in clone mode and got actual numbers in miliseconds. What else do you want?
 
I used a CRT in clone mode as well, and did calculate 40ms discrepancy between the CRT and LCD.

Has anyone actually played an FPS in clone mode?
 
I have a 19" crt and a 2405fpw. I just tried this test on my server (details in sig); I'll have to try it again on my primary comp sometime.

Monitor was cloned using ATI's software for all tests. Refresh rate was 60hz for both. Resolution was 1280x1024. LCD was hooked up to DVI, CRT was hooked to VGA.

I tried:
- crt primary, lcd secondary (fill)
- crt primary, lcd secondary (1:1)
- lcd primary, crt secondary (1:1)

all tests showed the same ~4/100th of a second delay.

Can I feel it? Eh I certainly thought so at first. I used to be a very competitive CS player but I then took an 18 month hiatus and just came back like a week ago haha.... I have a new mouse, new computer, new monitor.... so lots of things have changed. I did seem to detect a bit of input lag but in reality I think it was more the idiot working the keyboard ;) I don't think it feels much different than when I used to take breaks from the game. Oh I also realized I had left mouse acceleration on; when I turned that off the game felt MUCH more predictable.

Oh and fyi, I have the monitor connected to both my primary comp and server (yes this monitor kicks ass!) and I game with VGA because I watch movies off my server and want the best vid quality for that. That may or may not have an effect...

However, crap about lips out of sync with audio in movies and stuff is CRAP :eek: that's one of the big reasons I got this monitor (1. workspace 2. movies 3. gaming) and it is wonderful. Even the blacks are quite impressive imo... the only problem is the backlight is set a bit bright from the factory so if you don't lower it 1-2%, some of the blacks appear a dark dark grey.

IMO the monitor is fucking amazing for the price. I love it. Is it 100% perfect? No. Is it better than a CRT? Yes. I guarantee Fatality could hop on my computer tomorrow and own all of you just as hard as always :cool:
 
Kevlarman said:
I used a CRT in clone mode as well, and did calculate 40ms discrepancy between the CRT and LCD.

Has anyone actually played an FPS in clone mode?
Click to expand...

I have tried DoD:1.3 in clone mode with 1600x1200 1:1.

You can tell the different by switching between monitors mid-game.

But otherwise it doesn't affect me in FPS much at all. But this is most likely because other people can't react fast enough to take advantage of my 40 ms delay.
 
Take 10 different people playing together on line. Assume at least a few CRT’s and probably rest all different LCD’s so in fact everyone is compensating for their own gear. Since most LDC lag seems to be variable and not a consistent 40ms you can add that variable as well.

The biggest variable no one can control is net lag, which is a far worse problem and in no way shape or form consistent.

Even in a “controlled environment” such as a LAN party, which would be a closed network, the lag will be very much variable do to varying loads from user to user from moment to moment. This alone would have and effect on users even if they all used CRT’s.

Each user learns to compensate for their own rig; the rest is beyond your control and quite frankly negates almost any problems one might think they have with monitor lag.

Once again, you can test till you are blue in the face and find fault with almost anything but the fact is the same people seem to keep on being the big winners and that ability seems to be their ability to compensate “in real time” to almost any situation.
 
BillR said:
Take 10 different people playing together on line. Assume at least a few CRT’s and probably rest all different LCD’s so in fact everyone is compensating for their own gear. Since most LDC lag seems to be variable and not a consistent 40ms you can add that variable as well.

The biggest variable no one can control is net lag, which is a far worse problem and in no way shape or form consistent.

Even in a “controlled environment” such as a LAN party, which would be a closed network, the lag will be very much variable do to varying loads from user to user from moment to moment. This alone would have and effect on users even if they all used CRT’s.

Each user learns to compensate for their own rig; the rest is beyond your control and quite frankly negates almost any problems one might think they have with monitor lag.

Once again, you can test till you are blue in the face and find fault with almost anything but the fact is the same people seem to keep on being the big winners and that ability seems to be their ability to compensate “in real time” to almost any situation.
Click to expand...

I don't know, if your ping is 100ms and you get signal delay of 40ms on your monitor... well, 40ms is significant.
 
IceWind said:
I"ll make this plain and simple......

For me. IceWind. I play alot of FPS and all of it online.
Had 2405 for 4 months.
Never experienced nor seen any difference in "input" lag from my Viesonic CRT to L90D+ to 2405 and shortly a VP930b in a 9 month change over i've had of 4 change of monitors and I NEVER had this experience of "input" lag.

And for the HUGE market of LCD" sales which go to non gaming work enviroments, NO one is gonna notice a 20-30ms input delay. And yet I find it ironic you bash the 2405 because of this yet continue to use one? Interesting.....

Now if you'll excuse me, I have Iraq's to kill
Click to expand...

How ignorant... :rolleyes:
 
iddqd said:
I don't know, if your ping is 100ms and you get signal delay of 40ms on your monitor... well, 40ms is significant.
Click to expand...

If in fact your ping as a “fixed” 100ms you could indeed compensate, my point is the ping never ever remains the same because of varying net loads.

All in all the variables never stop, yet the consistent game winners make no excuse for losses inability to compensate.

The idea that everything moves through your machine at the speed of light just isn’t so. ;)
 
Had my 2405 FP for a couple months now. Haven't noticed the lag, if there is any.

Not in games or movies or regular day to day use. ANd I knew about it beforehand so I was looking for it.

As far as I can tell it's not an issue.
 
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