24" Widescreen CRT (FW900) From Ebay arrived,Comments.

the new guy said:
Yeah, I didn't realize my current graphics card had only 1 analog output, and I'm using 2 CRTs. I'm getting myself an HDMI to VGA converter so I don't have to run 2 monitors on 2 different cards. I think they're crashing my drivers.
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Not sure how much a quality HDMI-VGA adaptor costs, but the latest HD Fury will still have a limited pixel clock. A better solution might be to get a second video card, though I've never experimented with this so not sure how easy it is to set up dual monitors this way.
 
pcalltheway2 said:
GTX 780 so id be using dvi to vga adapter
By default i think windows will just detect as plug in play and technically it will work but will i have access to higher res/hz I can set custom res/hz with nvidia control panel not sure if this work correctly

Monitor im looking at is only $20 so not like im taking a huge risk
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$20?! Nice! I paid $50 for a similar one.
 
That is how I currently have set up, though they are very different cards. The primary card is the gtx780, the other is a 9500 GT. Every now and then, the drivers will suddenly stop and the screen will be frozen, but for a few moments or so. I got a cheap one with no upscaling or anything, it passes the signal straight through, so there is minimal lag, if any.
 
So guys, does anybody know what's up with the blurring, or shimmering that happens when you try to run a halved frame rate? Like 30fps at 60hz, 42.5 at 85hz, 50 at 100hz, and so on. I do this on games where I can't hit 60 with high IQ, but it loses the definition in motion that you get when you run 60fps at 60hz, or even 55 at 55hz, due to the shimmering and blurring.

It doesn't make sense in my mind though, because all you're doing is showing one frame of animation for two frames, but instead it seems like it's always mixing two frames together, if that makes sense.
 
Thanks, I'm still not sure I understand the science behind why I'm seeing two images at once though. I did find a good screenshot to demonstrate the phenomenon.

doubling2.jpg
 
as I understand it, it's because it's not a sample and hold display. It's refreshing the image each refresh, and if the refresh is twice the framerate, you have two refreshes per frame.
 
So that would look like: 1,1,2,2,3,3,.....29,29,30,30, totalling 60 frames. I don't understand why 1 and 2 or 29 and 30 or 22 and 23 are being shown on top of each other. Is it becuase the phosphors are more energized after being hit twice, so the afterimage stays longer? Or does it have to do with how our eyes process it?
 
EnhancedInterrogator said:
So that would look like: 1,1,2,2,3,3,.....29,29,30,30, totalling 60 frames. I don't understand why 1 and 2 or 29 and 30 or 22 and 23 are being shown on top of each other. Is it becuase the phosphors are more energized after being hit twice, so the afterimage stays longer? Or does it have to do with how our eyes process it?
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Think of it this way. If you don't pan the view, it's drawing each frame twice per refresh. If you pan the display, it's still drawing each frame twice per refresh, but now the two copied frames will be juxtaposed on top of each other with a bit of offset. The amount of offset depends on how much you have panned the display in that period of time.
 
So I made a hardforum account just to post my results of removing the anti-glare coating and using windas to adjust my fw900, and to say thanks for everyone who contributed, it really pushed me to do something about my aging screen and helped me with the process.
I got my FW900 from Ebay about 6.5 years ago for $200 and $100 shipping, to replace a mediocre 17 inch dell CRT. 1.5 years ago I for a dell ee228wfp as a secondary monitor for $50 on craigslist, its pretty great for the price.
So around 3 years ago I used a kleenex tissue (mistake 1) to rub out a stain. I rubbed really hard (mistake 2). I introduced many tiny scratches that I could not even see for many months. in a few months they were barely visible, and over the years the tension or the material of the coating caused these microscopic scratches to grow like a crystal. I kinda-sorta was able to ignore it but recently its really been frustrating, in fact I bookmarked this thread a whole year ago because I thought I can replace the coating, but now I realize that's futile.
Anyway I bought a cable from http://techref.massmind.org/techref/io/serial/RCL1.htm and swapped the ground and 5V pin and cut off the part that holds pins 5 and 6. (which was not enough to get it to work, I also had to swap the RX and TX pins as well since 2 PCs, 2 virtual machines, and 1 hour later I still could not backup the .dat file and I was getting desperate).
So using the guides posted on this thread (even the ones with broken image attachments) and the service manual, and that lovely reference list, I was convinced I had to remove the anti-glare coating and "calibrate" it with windas.
I took pictures along the way of the screen image before, after, and in between. I used identical settings on my camera for each respective test. The camera adds contrast and color variance that eyes are not as sensitive to (example: the difference between the screens in the first picture seems more extreme in the photo as opposed to real life.) the only variable between the pictures is the outdoor light penetrating closed shades.
The pictures have text within them so you won't have to flip tabs to remind yourself what you are looking at.

before anything, black level test:
http://puu.sh/7bu4k

before anything, white level test:
http://puu.sh/7bu55

removed A-G coating, black level test:
http://puu.sh/7bu6q

removed A-G coating, white level test:
http://puu.sh/7bu5w

removed coating and post-windas, black level test:
http://puu.sh/7bu7S

removed coating and post-windas, white level test:
http://puu.sh/7bu8v

So I believe that this was a successful endeavour, only gripes is now I can see my reflection with moderate ambient light on a dark screen.
I only "calibrated" with windas for 20 minutes, and converged for 15, when I have more time I will do a more thorough job.
 
Thanks for sharing this! Always awesome to hear about people taking the next step with these beauties :)


The improvement is dramatic after WinDAS!

I imagine that with a colorimeter (I recommend a DTP-94), and the right software tools (HCFR, ArgyllCMS) you'll be able to achieve a reference level image.

In WinDAS, did you mess around with white balance? If not, did you just edit the dat file manually to lower the G2?
 
yea thanks for sharing ..i haven't removed my anti glare coating yet ,how difficult was it to remove ? I will be be more careful cleaning my screen
 
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Like these Pictures :)

Btw: What was the DRIVE_MAX value for? Its being discussed this thread ages ago but i forgot about that.

And another question. Which things to do, to get rid of ghosting/phosphor lag. I know it could be the cable. But since i have the DVI-BNC from blue jeans i think that its not the cable.
 
I think DRIVE_MAX is for setting the voltage that the electron guns receive for a peak white video signal. Ideally, you want to adjust these using the WinDAS white point balance procedure, but if you are going to do it manually, be careful. Setting it too high can damage the phosphors, and may cause wear to the electron guns/video amplifier circuitry.

You can't get rid of phosphor lag, although lower brightness levels will reduce this. It's not a cable issue, it's an issue of the physics and chemistry involved in the phosphors reacting to stimulation.
 
Myramond said:
Like these Pictures :)

Btw: What was the DRIVE_MAX value for? Its being discussed this thread ages ago but i forgot about that.

And another question. Which things to do, to get rid of ghosting/phosphor lag. I know it could be the cable. But since i have the DVI-BNC from blue jeans i think that its not the cable.
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You may not be able to. FW900 has a medium-persistence phosphor, and it will ghost no matter what. You'll see it mostly in darker games like Doom 3. But in all honesty - it's nothing compared to most LCD motion blur. F520 has some ghosting too, but not as much as the FW900. I also use a Bluejeans DVI-BNC-5 cable.

EDIT: Spacediver answered it already. :)
 
spacediver:
yeah I cannot believe I was suffering for so many years with that smoky image. I did not edit white balance settings at all, only G2 and DRIVE_MAX with notepad. I use f.lux anyway to set color balance to be warm at night. I believe that the fw900 is already extremely close to true white without f.lux and its the lcd that's just too warm. I am not to worried about having a reference image anyway, this monitor is far from great condition internally, 85hz and resolutions higher than 1920x1200 does not work well, as I will mention later.

Baxter299:
the most difficult part was getting the plastic case off. Once the bezel is removed, you use a blade (I used a boxcutter with a new blade) on any corner of the coating to separate it from the glass and pull slow and steady by hand. It is on pretty strongly but its a fancy type of adhesive that doesn't leave any marks. Just remember to pull up the metallic tape first. It is all obvious once its open.

Myramond:
The way I understand it is the G2 is the overall gain during electron firing so it affects all levels at once, and DRIVE_MAX is peak white like mentioned before without affecting blacks. So I adjusted G2 first and then DRIVE_MAX. This is a variation of "expose for the shadows and develop for the highlights" that photo geeks know.

So I have a problem which I am pretty sure is deep and physical and not easily repairable but I will describe it anyway just in case.
1920x1200 @85 hz has serious geometry issues. higher resolutions have the same issue at lower frequencies, and lower resolutions have the same issue at higher frequencies. I am running 1920x1200 @75 hz which is the highest resolution/frequency which doesn't have a problem.
a year ago I was sitting looking at my screen and I heard a little "ping" on the inside and noticed the screen looked odd. I described the problem on the sony help forums and they said its something internal and I should take it to a shop.
so here's what it looks like: http://puu.sh/7bu72
The middle is stretched out horizontally and the left and right side are squeezed in horizontally.
for some reason lowering the resolution and/or frequency removes this effect.
I am already really accustomed to 75hz , its a bit sharper and I don't see flicker until ~68hz anyway.
so if anyone has any information at all even if its "totally unfixable" then I'd like to know so I won't lose sleep over it.
 
spacediver said:
I think DRIVE_MAX is for setting the voltage that the electron guns receive for a peak white video signal. Ideally, you want to adjust these using the WinDAS white point balance procedure, but if you are going to do it manually, be careful. Setting it too high can damage the phosphors, and may cause wear to the electron guns/video amplifier circuitry.

You can't get rid of phosphor lag, although lower brightness levels will reduce this. It's not a cable issue, it's an issue of the physics and chemistry involved in the phosphors reacting to stimulation.
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Thanks. I did know that you cant get rid of that completley. I formulated that incorrectly. Just wanted to know something i can do to reduce it a bit.
But i think im just crazy because i thought i got stronger the last few days. But i think that is just in my mind. ^^
 
There was no way doing White Point Balance in WinDAS without any equipment (pattern generator, spectrophotometer...) right?
 
Myramond said:
There was no way doing White Point Balance in WinDAS without any equipment (pattern generator, spectrophotometer...) right?
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WPB needs some kind of meter. Calibrated DTP-94 is the most affordable way to do this. Pattern generators are good to have, but not really necessary for WPB.
 
lampman said:
The middle is stretched out horizontally and the left and right side are squeezed in horizontally.
for some reason lowering the resolution and/or frequency removes this effect.
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You can address this in WinDAS. Choose the "alignment at prime mode" procedure (I think it's this one), and it will take you through a number of steps to calibrate geometry for 1920x1200 @ 85hz, including horizontal linearity (which is the issue you're describing).
 
I have a couple of problems.

The first is while I was watching a TV show yesterday it went out of focus. At first I thought that something happened with the convergence, but even the OSD was out of focus. So it wasn't the convergence. I've turned it off, then back on and everything was back to normal. Is it something to worry about? Is it on its way?

Second - I haven't noticed it up until now, but it has slight convergence problems in the center of the display. Top, bottom, sides, everything is OK, excluding the center. I can't fix it with the OSD. Is it time for WinDAS?

Thank you in advance.
 
triturbo said:
Second - I haven't noticed it up until now, but it has slight convergence problems in the center of the display. Top, bottom, sides, everything is OK, excluding the center. I can't fix it with the OSD. Is it time for WinDAS?
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Yes. WinDAS DCNV (Dynamic Convergence). There you can adjust every area of the screen.
 
jbltecnicspro said:
WPB needs some kind of meter. Calibrated DTP-94 is the most affordable way to do this. Pattern generators are good to have, but not really necessary for WPB.
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Video Signal Generators are key pieces of equipment when performing WPB via WinDAS/WinCAT, as well as spectrophotometers, spectroradiometers and colorimeters, among others.

Hope this helps...

Unkle Vito!
 
spacediver said:
You can address this in WinDAS. Choose the "alignment at prime mode" procedure (I think it's this one), and it will take you through a number of steps to calibrate geometry for 1920x1200 @ 85hz, including horizontal linearity (which is the issue you're describing).
Click to expand...

Is there an description how to do this "geometry calibration". I would need that on my screen.
 
while I don't have one of these epic CRTs, I wish I did. This thread rocks.. there are very very few computer related threads that last almost AN ENTIRE DECADE!!! :)
 
If I didn't have three I would consider one in excellent condition but for less and only with at least a picture in a CL ad.
 
I'd give $150 tops for a used CRT off craigslist. They just have too many hours on them. All of mine have died [ face sad ]. I had a fw900 then a Viewsonic P225f. Both were really great, but quit working. So I finally gave in and got a LCD. First LCD of any kind outside of a cell phone I have owned in 7 or 8 years. My TV is still CRT, a Sony super fine pitch XBR 910.

My initial experience with LCD was so bad I got rid of the big screen TV and the PC monitor and started hunting for quality CRT replacements off craigslist. Back then there were a lot more of them. Especially TVs. Peeps were dropping them like a bad habit racing to embrace LCD. I picked up all my CRTs for free or cheap. It was fun getting high quality equipment for pennies on the dollar.

But lately trying to replace my CRTs is more of a chore. When my P225f died here recently I searched Craigslist daily for a replacement. Found a Diamond tron Mitsubishi but it was pretty tired and didn't have the quality image like the P225f or the 900.

So I thought maybe my time as a holdout has come to an end. Began researching gaming LCDs and settled on a 27 inch BenQ. It's a XL2720T and it is not all that bad. Is it perfect? No. Is it better displaying than the 900 or the P225f? No, but it is real close. No input lag, no motion blur. The TN screen still fades if you slouch in the computer chair, but overall the viewing angle is not too bad. Blacks are deep and the colors are vibrant. I think the resolution could be higher than 1920 X 1080 but it is okay. It is not as nice as 2304 X 1440. It takes full advantage of my DVI video card and all my games run just as fast and smooth on this big screen as they did on the smaller VGA CRTs. So there ye be. My life with CRT has come to a close it seems. If you guys are finally forced to switch over things are not so bad, pretty painless really.
 
spacediver said:
You can address this in WinDAS. Choose the "alignment at prime mode" procedure (I think it's this one), and it will take you through a number of steps to calibrate geometry for 1920x1200 @ 85hz, including horizontal linearity (which is the issue you're describing).
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Thanks, I looked into it but prime mode alignment only has vertical linearity, and I went through all of the other procedures and could not find horizontal linearity.
 
lampman said:
Thanks, I looked into it but prime mode alignment only has vertical linearity, and I went through all of the other procedures and could not find horizontal linearity.
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ah i might have misremembered, my bad. Look through the .dat file using expert viewer mode - do you see an H LIN BAL variable or something like that?
 
@Poordevil
I'm still not ready for LCD. I've stocked up on CRTs as much as I could. I decided I've got enough now and hopefully by the time my last one dies, there will be excellent flat screens out there. I've got 2 fw900s, 2 dell p1130s, and 2 viewsonic g810s (one of these is on its way out). It's difficult to find a good CRT out there these days :/
 
the new guy said:
@Poordevil
I'm still not ready for LCD. I've stocked up on CRTs as much as I could. I decided I've got enough now and hopefully by the time my last one dies, there will be excellent flat screens out there. I've got 2 fw900s, 2 dell p1130s, and 2 viewsonic g810s (one of these is on its way out). It's difficult to find a good CRT out there these days :/
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Not if you are willing to pay top $ for a Grade A+ fully calibrated & adjusted units with mo much use on the tubes... Like I said it many times before, you'll get what you pay for...

Unkle Vito!
 
I noticed on this monitor that depending on which Expert mode I use for color (1, 2, or 3) that each one has a different brightness level and tint. All 3 expert modes have the exact same color gain and bias' set (50, 50, 50, 100, 100, 100), yet Expert 3 is by far the brightest. Expert 1 is ever-so-slightly red while expert 2 is a tiny bit green-ish.. then Expert 3 is just much more vibrant than the others.

I like using expert 3 since it allows me to lower my contrast down to 65 instead of using the usual 90+.. in turn this makes everything MUCH sharper than I had ever been able to get this screen. Now it's sharper than my wife's 24" 1920x1200 lcd :)
 
Alright, so yesterday I finalized my WinDAS escapades (for now) with the FW900. I've got everything set proper, and man - it looks great. Only issue I have is that I did the White Point Balance Adjust with my monitor's contrast set to 90. The problem is that it seems to be set to spec with the contrast at 90, and I don't have a ton of playroom. I think I'll need to redo the WPB with the Contrast set to 85 and Brightness set to 50 (this is what my Vito F520 is set to).

But yeah, the monitor looks fantastic. I'll "officially" redo the WPB later after I send in my DTP-94 colorimeter for recalibrating. I finally played some Half Life 2 yesterday, and I've FINALLY started to actually use my monitor for what I wanted to use it for - gaming.

Geometry is about as perfect as I could get it. I could keep adjusting until the cows come home, but the fact is that CRT's will never be absolutely perfect. It's all about getting as close as you can. These monitors - they truly are gems. A working and fully calibrated unit (especially one with the anti glare removed) is just amazing to behold. Soon enough, I'll have a fully calibrated unit. Woot. :)

In case anyone needs a recap of the equipment I'm using:

- Quantum Data 801-GG signal generator
- Monaco Optix (X-Rite) DTP-94 colorimeter
- USB-to-Serial with a null modem cable (to connect the signal generator to WinDAS)
- USB-to-TTL cable for the monitor connection.
 
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