24" Widescreen CRT (FW900) From Ebay arrived,Comments.

I have already done the convergence procedure. I maxed out the adjustment settings on the lower right corner which means if the convergence drifts more, I cannot adjust it because I have no more adjustment range.
 
Interesting.

Did you try doing the regular convergence procedure before doing the dynamic convergence (while respecting the limits that WinDAS recommends)?
 
another thing you may want to experiment with is adjusting the magnet rings on the neck of the tube.

See page 4-2 in the service manual.

Also see this post for a visual.

From what I can gather, the 6 fold magnet has (two?) protrusions that you need to line up together, and then you can make rough adjustments by "using the 4 folds poles magnet".

Looks like you would need to be very careful before doing this kind of procedure, however, so only consider it as a last resort, and make sure you do your homework on CRT safety before attempting, else you could seriously injure or kill yourself.


edit: MightyJoe's post explains nicely how to remove the bezel and cage.


Again, exercise UTMOST CAUTION, and DO YOUR HOMEWORK before attempting anything like this.
 
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2d6o0up.png
 
the new guy said:
I finally got one of these monsters and it's awesome. A nice upgrade from a Dell P991. Hoping it lasts for years to come. I have a couple questions though:

1) The guy I bought it from says that WinDAS can tell you how many hours the monitor has. How can I check this?

2) I noticed the convergence was badly off at the lower right corner, so much that I maxed out a couple of settings on that portion. If the convergence drifts more, I am sol and will have to deal with it. What caused it to drift that badly?

Thanks in advance!
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Welcome to the forum. As spacediver has already pointed out, you cannot see the number of hours the unit has on it. There are methods that can be used to estimate, but an exact number on a stray unit will probably never be known. Did you perhaps buy your FW900 from a person named Taylor? I'm curious.

As for the convergence. While it's possible to adjust dynamic convergence and get everything right, you will obtain the best results possible by going through all of the WinDAS geometry procedures first. WinDAS isn't exactly the most user-friendly piece of software in the world, but if you take the time to learn it, it's a fantastic tool.

EDIT: And before you ask - yes, we'll be glad to help you learn the program.
 
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Ashratt said:
wait what, the dynamic convergence adjustment is not the only option? (besides OSD of course)
Please tell me more :D
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There's OSD convergence adjustment, static convergence adjustment in WinDAS, and dynamic convergence adjustment in WinDAS as well. The dynamic convergence procedure in the FW900 also gives you more parameters to adjust. With the P991, you adjust the convergence of Red and Blue (if this makes sense) in spots. With FW900, you can adjust Red and Blue with respect to Green, and then you can do it even further and adjust the convergence of Magenta (Red and Blue together) with respect to Green. This gives FW900 a lot more flexibility in adjusting the convergence (it also can take more time too). I haven't done the FW900 with my QD-801 yet, as I've been practicing with the P991 exclusively. When I eventually try the FW900, I'll let you all know the results. Unfortunately, I don't have access to a calibrated probe that can work with WinCATs, so I won't be doing White Point balancing.
 
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jbltecnicspro said:
There's OSD convergence adjustment, static convergence adjustment in WinDAS, and dynamic convergence adjustment in WinDAS as well.
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ah i did not know about the static convergence adjustment.
We really need a full-on winDAS guide, hasn't sony any information for their own programm?
 
Ashratt said:
ah i did not know about the static convergence adjustment.
We really need a full-on winDAS guide, hasn't sony any information for their own programm?
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Yes, but it's so uninformative that it's pathetic. The best way to really learn it is to try it for yourself. As far as difficulty of the program is concerned, I personally don't think it's that hard to do. The difficult part comes from running the program without proper instrumentation. That's really the key. If you have the right tools, like my signal generator for geometry for example, then it really is just a matter of going through the steps it has you do and following the instructions.

Unkle Vito is making a WinDAS manual which will be for sale later. Anyone serious about learning the program should buy a copy.
 
For what it's worth, I've had no issues using WinDAS without a signal generator. Your mileage may vary depending on your video card capabilities, however.

If you're doing a white point balance adjustment, you'll also need a colorimeter and/or spectroradiometer, as you need to meet chromaticity and luminance targets that your eye cannot judge.
 
spacediver said:
For what it's worth, I've had no issues using WinDAS without a signal generator. Your mileage may vary depending on your video card capabilities, however.

If you're doing a white point balance adjustment, you'll also need a colorimeter and/or spectroradiometer, as you need to meet chromaticity and luminance targets that your eye cannot judge.
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Can you do us all a favor and then try the Factory Preset? If you're able to get all modes to sync, I'd be very interested in your copy of WinDAS. :)
 
Factory Preset is the only one I couldn't do, for the same reason you couldn't. I was able to get one of the modes to sync (can't remember which), and it allowed me to adjust the sliders.

But honestly, what's the point? As far as I can tell, messing around with Factory Preset allows you to change the defaults. Why would you want to do that?
 
spacediver said:
No, I mean in WinDAS.
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I didn't even think to try that one. Since the monitor is converged perfectly I'm going to leave it alone for now. Unless it's doing harm with the settings being the way they are now.

jbltecnicspro said:
Did you perhaps buy your FW900 from a person named Taylor? I'm curious.
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I do not remember his name. I'm in the Houston area if that points to anything...
jbltecnicspro said:
And before you ask - yes, we'll be glad to help you learn the program.
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Thank you! That is very much appreciated! :D
jbltecnicspro said:
Unkle Vito is making a WinDAS manual which will be for sale later.
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Definitely buying one. I gave one of my P991's to a friend who needed a monitor for gaming. It's not perfect, but it's better than his LCD. I've never adjusted the white balance on any of my monitors. It probably needs it.
 
the new guy said:
I didn't even think to try that one. Since the monitor is converged perfectly I'm going to leave it alone for now. Unless it's doing harm with the settings being the way they are now.


I do not remember his name. I'm in the Houston area if that points to anything...

Thank you! That is very much appreciated! :D

Definitely buying one. I gave one of my P991's to a friend who needed a monitor for gaming. It's not perfect, but it's better than his LCD. I've never adjusted the white balance on any of my monitors. It probably needs it.
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First off, awesome about your convergence. Second - if you're serious about learning WinDAS, I would personally hit craigslist and get a Trinitron monitor to work on. Because WinDAS will affect your monitor at the hardware level, it's entirely possible to fuck it all up, if you pardon my language (I'm trying to stress how serious it is if you do something wrong). Most mistakes are reverse-able. Sadly - some aren't. :eek:

As for your second "work" monitor - a Dell 19-inch or larger should suffice. Just make sure it's a Trinitron. WinDAS itself has a database full of Trinitron screens, so if you need to figure out which model you want to look out for (or if a monitor that's listed actually is a true Sony Trinitron), you can easily check and see. Getting a second P991 would be the safest bet. But do understand that not all Trinitrons are built the same. The GDM line of monitors were Sony's best, and as such - they have more parameters that you'll need to adjust.

Finally, if your monitor looks great, and is working perfectly - then you probably don't even need to go around messing with this stuff. If you ever need a professional calibration, Unkle Vito (LAGRUNAUER) is your man.

EDIT: And even if you don't take up to performing adjustments in WinDAS, please - stay and chat it up. We CRT lovers are an almost-dead breed. It's great to be able to kick it with the few enthusiasts left.
 
Thanks, I'll leave it be then.

I gave my friend the good P991 which I believe has less usage than the one I still have. Mine has a slight blue tinge to blacks so I'm thinking the blue gun is weak and the hardware is compensating for it. Color return (image restoration) didn't fix that blue tinge. Maybe a white balance adjustment will fix it.

Anyway, if somebody has another one of these (no matter the badge), please contact me. I want one for my secondary PC.
 
Good news folks! MPU'ing the monitor has gotten it to recognize all Factory Preset modes now. I've also noticed that sometimes when I select the new mode, the monitor doesn't report back properly until I try it again. I'm going to mess with the serial speeds. Perhaps it's not syncing properly?
 
the new guy said:
Thanks, I'll leave it be then.

I gave my friend the good P991 which I believe has less usage than the one I still have. Mine has a slight blue tinge to blacks so I'm thinking the blue gun is weak and the hardware is compensating for it. Color return (image restoration) didn't fix that blue tinge. Maybe a white balance adjustment will fix it.

Anyway, if somebody has another one of these (no matter the badge), please contact me. I want one for my secondary PC.
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Craigslist is your friend on this one. If I shipped you my 991, it would cost a bit to make sure it arrived in one piece. :)
 
jbltecnicspro said:
Good news folks! MPU'ing the monitor has gotten it to recognize all Factory Preset modes now. I've also noticed that sometimes when I select the new mode, the monitor doesn't report back properly until I try it again. I'm going to mess with the serial speeds. Perhaps it's not syncing properly?
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Interesting!

What about in other procedures, does the mode report correctly now?

Can I ask why you're interested in factory preset? What do you think the purpose of that procedure is?
 
spacediver said:
Interesting!

What about in other procedures, does the mode report correctly now?

Can I ask why you're interested in factory preset? What do you think the purpose of that procedure is?
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The other procedures probably show the correct mode. I'm not sure though, as all it says is "Mode 28" for CONV_LOW, for example. I've gone back and forth, and every time it registers Mode 28, instead of showing a different number every time I do it. :)

As to why I'm interested in factory preset... Well, I'm very much a completist. I don't like leaving things undone. Also - I use many different modes, as each of my tubes (sans FW900) is hooked up to a variety of rigs. Crappy old PC's, Dreamcast, etc.

Well, it looks like MPU'ing the monitor also resets the WPB, which I can't adjust on my own. Ugh... :( I guess this project is still on hold.

EDIT: I need to reiterate and 'splain myself. Before doing the MPU, I would get all sorts of weird result postings. But now, it's MUCH more consistent. Oh well... Shame about the white point. I need something (anything) that can take readings. At default (not set), the white is very much a purplish hue. Fortunately, I can load back any data into the monitor and it'll be right as rain.
 
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But what do you think factory preset actually does?

btw from what I understand, MPU resets the entire EEPROM to the defaults for that unit that are packaged with WinDAS.
 
jbltecnicspro said:
EDIT: I need to reiterate and 'splain myself. Before doing the MPU, I would get all sorts of weird result postings. But now, it's MUCH more consistent. Oh well... Shame about the white point. I need something (anything) that can take readings. At default (not set), the white is very much a purplish hue. Fortunately, I can load back any data into the monitor and it'll be right as rain.
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I would recommend the i1 display pro (OEM), which is a great colorimeter.

You can purchase it from spectracal. I know a couple of the main guys who run the company and they're extremely competent. They also sell the i1 pro (which they market as a spectroradiometer), but if you had to choose one device, I'd go with the i1 display pro, as it can read at much lower luminance levels than the i1 pro. If you're interested, I'll confirm with them that their device has the correct offset tables for trinitron phosphors. Having the spectroradiometer PLUS a colorimeter is ideal, but if you had to choose only one, I'd go with the colorimeter.

Failing that, if you want to save money, get a second hand DTP-94 - there are a couple on the bay right now for under $80, and one of them is apparently in mint condition.

Because the DTP-94's were calibrated based on CRTs very simliar to ours, they're incredibly accurate for trinitrons. And they last a long long time without drifting. If you end up getting either the i1display pro, or the DTP-94, I'll help you confirm whether your unit is calibrated for correct chromaticity readings.

But yea, definitely invest in some equipment that can take colorimetric measurements - absolutely essential if you want to maintain your beauties!
 
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jbltecnicspro said:
The other procedures probably show the correct mode. I'm not sure though, as all it says is "Mode 28" for CONV_LOW, for example. I've gone back and forth, and every time it registers Mode 28, instead of showing a different number every time I do it. :)

As to why I'm interested in factory preset... Well, I'm very much a completist. I don't like leaving things undone. Also - I use many different modes, as each of my tubes (sans FW900) is hooked up to a variety of rigs. Crappy old PC's, Dreamcast, etc.

Well, it looks like MPU'ing the monitor also resets the WPB, which I can't adjust on my own. Ugh... :( I guess this project is still on hold.

EDIT: I need to reiterate and 'splain myself. Before doing the MPU, I would get all sorts of weird result postings. But now, it's MUCH more consistent. Oh well... Shame about the white point. I need something (anything) that can take readings. At default (not set), the white is very much a purplish hue. Fortunately, I can load back any data into the monitor and it'll be right as rain.
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Be VERY careful with the MPU. If you are going to do anything with it, make SURE you backup your monitor's dat file beforehand. I thought the MPU would simply reset everything to factory settings, but those factory settings are COMPLETELY out of whack.

In my case what happened was, the entire screen was severely dim, and cast in a green tone like you were looking at it through night vision. Then, as a few minutes went by, the screen went progressively darker and darker... I got scared and reloaded the backup DAT quickly because I wasn't sure if I was damaging the screen, not to mention it was completely unusable and getting anything near proper white balance without a calibrator would have been impossible.
 
I had something similar happen with my P991 when I was exploring WinDAS. I was messing with the factory preset and at first nothing happened. I messed with a few geometry settings and set final values. After saving a new DAT file, the screen came back on and the contrast was waaaaaaayyyyyyy off. It was very bright like the G2 had been turned up, but the value never changed. I lowered G2 and the desktop just got darker, but the screen was still too bright. I ended up restoring an older copy of my file to fix it.
 
Well, 4ort - my monitor didn't exhibit any such behavior. Could be a coincidence? As in something could be wrong with the monitor that you don't know of. the new guy - my P991 is "slow." When I did the MPU, it reset everything including the white point balance. However, only when I turned it off and on again did it display the reset WPB value. I've found that hitting the button to the far left (??) usually gives it a kick in the nuts, as far as displaying the true EEPROM settings in there. This probably makes no sense. I could possibly make a youtube video of it. :D
 
Here's a little xmas gift for you all, and thanks to the new guy for hosting the file :)

A collection of wallpapers I've put together. I chose these mainly because I think they really allow the display to show off its capabilities, but there are also aesthetic considerations.

With one exception, they're all 1920x1200. They're all from interfacelift, and I've kept the original file names, so you can track them down easily and learn more about each one if you wish.

Merry xmas all :)
 
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Thanks! Those look amazing. Neither of my Dells can display those like the FW900 can. I'll see about uploading them somewhere if there's enough demand for it.

Hope you had a good Christmas

EDIT: I sent you a PM. I have a new link there. Should be active forever.
 
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just about to do a white point balance on my main HP FW900 - am excited! I managed to fit the WinDAS cable in without removing the bezel - was a bit tricky, but nothing a good pair of tweezers wasn't able to handle.

This will be a lot easier than doing the others, as the unit is set up nicely on my desk, whereas I had to do all the others on my bed. Can't wait!

I'll be reporting my results before and after calibration :)
 
spacediver said:
Here's a little xmas gift for you all, and thanks to the new guy for hosting the file :)

A collection of wallpapers I've put together. I chose these mainly because I think they really allow the display to show off its capabilities, but there are also aesthetic considerations.

Merry xmas all :)
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Damn, Xmas is over. I have posted this before MANY months ago but in the spirit.

http://zeospantera.minus.com/meRP8Os2l

A collection of what I consider Fw900 porn. The colors man.. THE COLORS! :D
 
Wow, I'm pretty blown away by the WinDAS white point balance results.

I won't show the before values (they sucked), but look at the post calibration results. Not a single adjustment was made in the OSD - this was all WinDAS.

This was done on my main unit (HP, with antiglare still on).

5m9wfp.png


Sorry for the wide image - I measured at 20 points across the grayscale instead of 10. I may remeasure with 10 and repost, to keep the image more viewable.

Notice the average delta E is under 1.0 - that is basically what reference monitors are able to achieve! The delta XYs are virtually all under 0.005, and many of them are at 0.001. This is with respect to D65.

You can see the results visually in the graph portion of the image. Notice that from 20% gray onwards, the white point balance is pretty much perfect (in general it's virtually impossible to get good reported tracking at lower luminance levels, due to instrument and display limitations). The magenta plot at bottom is the delta E.

I've also highlighted my black and white luminances in red ovals. About a 5000:1 contrast ratio. I could improve this by lowering the brightness a bit, but I don't want to risk crushing blacks. Another option is to add some bias lighting behind the display, as this will increase apparent contrast.

Also gonna experiment with 1d LUTs for gamma correction, so I can meet different standards for video material. In case you're wondering, the gamma was around 2.3 after WinDAS calibration.

My brightness and contrast OSD values remained where they were before I did the adjustment. Next time, I'll experiment with resetting my display to factory defaults before doing the WPB adjustment, and seeing if that makes a difference.

But for now, this is extremely encouraging. The display looks wonderful.
 
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glad you like em. I scoured every single wallpaper on interfacelift (over 3000 of them), and picked out the ones I liked!

And Zeos, thanks for sharing your collection (I see you've updated them since the last time you posted them - I still have your old collection my harddrive).

Some of them make me feel tingly and funny ;)
 
Myramond said:
Looking at the uploaded pictures in fullscreen mode... is just ...

1282786204310.jpg
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I'm going to have to break out the FW900. Yes, I must confess to all of you that I have committed an act of blasphemy among CRT and display enthusiasts. My FW900 is in the closet... Please don't stone me! :D
 
spacediver said:
...
I've also highlighted my black and white luminances in red ovals. About a 5000:1 contrast ratio. I could improve this by lowering the brightness a bit, but I don't want to risk crushing blacks. Another option is to add some bias lighting behind the display, as this will increase apparent contrast...
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Looks impressive, except the contrast ratio, which if we're talking on/off, looks very low for a CRT, if the F520 (>15K:1) is representative of these displays...
 
SH1 said:
Looks impressive, except the contrast ratio, which if we're talking on/off, looks very low for a CRT, if the F520 (>15K:1) is representative of these displays...
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Do you remember what your Lmin and Lmax were? And were you able to maintain this contrast ratio without a ridiculously high gamma where everything gets crushed?

I could probably achieve a higher contrast ratio if I chose higher luminance targets than those requested during the WPB adjustment (during the DRIVE sections). I have a feeling that the FW900 factory specs are probably in the range of 5000:1 even though it may be capable of much higher, but am not sure. Perhaps raising the contrast level above spec would compromise the life of the tube even more.
 
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I was just reading through this document. I need to go through it more carefully, but from what I can tell, it seems that making the cutoff voltage too extreme (which would lower black level), would force the video amplifier to work much harder.
 
just logged close to 5 hours straight on WinDAS, going through the various procedures.

No matter what I do, whether it's a WPB, alignment, MPU, it always resets my brightness and contrast to 31/90, even if I set them to 50/100 to begin with.

Maybe this is normal behaviour, anyone else have any similar experience?

I'll test this out on the spare FW900 and see if this happens on that one too, but for now, this puppy needs a break :)
 
spacediver said:
Do you remember what your Lmin and Lmax were? And were you able to maintain this contrast ratio without a ridiculously high gamma where everything gets crushed?

I could probably achieve a higher contrast ratio if I chose higher luminance targets than those requested during the WPB adjustment (during the DRIVE sections). I have a feeling that the FW900 factory specs are probably in the range of 5000:1 even though it may be capable of much higher, but am not sure. Perhaps raising the contrast level above spec would compromise the life of the tube even more.
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Sorry...that number was a reference to this:

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,1161657,00.asp

Which is consistent with reports of other CRT measurements I've heard over the years...

(My understanding is this is carved from the display's capability to render a truer black as opposed to raising the luminance.)
 
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