24" Widescreen CRT (FW900) From Ebay arrived,Comments.

Discussion in 'Displays' started by mathesar, Sep 13, 2005.

  1. Derupter

    Derupter [H]Lite

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    Well,your goal was 1920x1200 85 Hz so at 96 Hz is good no?
    For resolutions over 1920x1200 better to use downsampling,about the pixel clock if you set 2560x1600 56Hz what happens,black screen?
    1920x1200 96 Hz is 322 MHz with CVT,2560x1600 56 Hz is 323 MHz so your limit is between 322 and 323?
    I don't think that Sunix card has anything to do with that limit,maybe it's only an unfortunate chip of the adapter.
    About the 120KHz limit,well that is the max horizontal scan rate of the FW900 (121-122 KHz),example you can't do 1600x1000 134 Hz to reach 320 MHz pixel clock because the horizontal frequency is 145 KHz.
    The card driver are only for USB functionality,about the recognized resolutions the problem is that with these adapters the CRT is seen like a digital monitor,so the system shows you the standard resolutions as they are in the EDID.
    Example in the EDID there is a 1280x960 75 HZ,in fact if you set that resolution you will see 75 Hz as max refresh rate,i had the same problem with Windows XP which does not support EDID override.
    You need to use EDID override with CRU utility and set all the standard and detailed resolutions like you want,so you don't have to create all those custom resolutions manually every time you need,but simply you load your saved EDID profile one time.
     
  2. Meeho

    Meeho 2[H]4U

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    CRT is not a sample and hold display. There is no influence of vsync on sharpness because backlight and pixel transitions aren't decoupled like on LCD's. FPS is not a factor.
     
  3. Strat_84

    Strat_84 Limp Gawd

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    Oh yes, you are right indeed, that kind of process must lead to some slight information loss depending on the severity of the corrections. That's why the software profile is here to "finish the job", after the screen has been set as close as possible of the display goals with the OSD controls.

    But unless you're in an extreme situation, like trying to fix a display outputing a 100 Cd/m² with a heavy blue tint into 60 Cd/m² @5000K only with a software profile, the loss should be minimal, you probably won't see it.

    Here is the correction profile of my FW900 for example, according to the figures coming with it there must be a compression of about 5-6%, and I could have been more picky when setting that one.

    Courbes de calibrage FW900-3 #1 2016-11-15 09-35 65cdm² D7500 0.001cdm² 2.2 M-S 1xCurve+MTX.png
     
  4. 3dfan

    3dfan n00bie

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    Meeho. i may be wrong, but i believe EnhancedInterrogator is refering to motion clarity with "sharpness", assuming he is, a way for me to best undestand it with the benefits of vsync, is to compare it with real life while you are in motion, you see things while moving as clear, sharp, smooth, artifact free as you see in real life, at least on a crt with vsync on and using and afordable for you eyes refresh rate being matched with a constant framerate, but otherwise, if you dont use vsync, and FPSs do not match and are not constant to the refresh rate there will be imperfeccions while in motion such tearing (screen image looks sliced in half while in motion), or stuttering (like a feel of a jumping moving image) even on a crt at 100hz.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2017
  5. Meeho

    Meeho 2[H]4U

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    Yes, microstuttering and tearing would be influenced by vsync, but sharpness of whatever is displayed would be constant.
     
  6. 3dfan

    3dfan n00bie

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    yes, would be constant but harder to appreciate if you have an inperfect in motion stuttery or sliced image, and vsync corrects all those imperfections to achieve a "super sharp" life like motion experiencie, i think thats the point, at least to me.
     
  7. EnhancedInterrogator

    EnhancedInterrogator Gawd

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    I think for me, when you lose the evenly-paced frames from vsync, your eyes can't track objects on screen as reliably, which leads to a loss in the ability to obtain visual information.

    So I guess that's technically judder, not sharpness. I stand corrected. But it kind of has a similar result in the end: you can't see what you're trying to see.
     
  8. spacediver

    spacediver 2[H]4U

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    enhanced, if you use an Nvidia GPU with analog out, you'll be able to adjust the gamma table with 10 bit precision, so you'll be able to make fairly subtantial changes to gamma curve without losing any of the 256 distinct gray levels.
     
  9. Mumble

    Mumble [H]Lite

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    Any updates from delock?
     
  10. XoR_

    XoR_ [H]Lite

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    how come setting fps limiter helps with input lag when v-sync already acts like fps limiter?
    what is good game example wher this can be tested?

    v-sync bring a lot of issues and most games seems to stick with double buffering causing terribe frame rate drops
    like I often saw how game got from >70fps to ike 30fps after enabing v-sync

    all in al it is not worth to use v-sync at all and just disable it everywhere
     
  11. Strat_84

    Strat_84 Limp Gawd

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    They must be on holidays, if something happens that'll rather be in January. ;)
     
  12. Derupter

    Derupter [H]Lite

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    I have tested the "enhanced" sample,but the problem is that it's not better than before.
    On the GTX 1070 like all other samples it works very good,but on the 7950 with the mini displayport adapter in the middle,it works only up to 180 MHz.
    Since i don't trust the 7950 test,i asked Delock to send a sample to pr0ton,he tested on two different graphic cards (AMD and Nvidia) and it worked very badly.
    The new AWG 30 cable didn't make the difference and they didn't use the best connector,but the second one.
    Now we will make some experiments with the cable (even changing it) and after the results i will make a report to Delock
     
  13. Mumble

    Mumble [H]Lite

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    Is there any way I can get on that mailing list? OR more importantly, can we be able to send one to Moome.
     
  14. EnhancedInterrogator

    EnhancedInterrogator Gawd

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    more info:

    https://www.blurbusters.com/howto-low-lag-vsync-on/\

    I first noticed the effect with Battlefield 4 and its built-in limiter in the user.cfg file.
     
  15. jyb

    jyb n00bie

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    any new updates on the new card?
     
  16. Aktan

    Aktan n00bie

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    Hi all,

    I've just received an all digital out GPU (AMD RX 480) and have done a ton of research again on finding an adapter with high pixel clock. I use two CRTs (ViewSonic G225f 1600x1200@100, Sony G500 1600x1200@60) and since my old GPU (AMD R9 280X) had at least 1 RAMDAC, I had no problems with my ViewSonic monitor and gave up on a high pixel clock for my Sony monitor and used some mini DP to VGA adapter with a pixel clock of around 200 MHz. Upon doing research again, I've stumbled onto this thread, which I'm a happy to hear such an adapter (the Delock DP to VGA) exist, though with problems. Due to the links to Sunix for a way to use a USB-C to VGA adapter with high pixel clock, I stumbled onto this product:

    http://www.sunix.com/en/product_detail.php?cid=1&kid=3&gid=21&pid=1633

    It mentions resolutions up to 2560X1600@60Hz which I think is around 330 MHz pixel clock. Has anyone tried this out? I do want to continue to use my ViewSonic monitor at an high refresh rate, and also use this new video card, so I am hoping for a cheap solution. I guess I could also wait for the Delock DP to VGA cable to mature too, or worse case, mod it myself, lol.
     
  17. EnhancedInterrogator

    EnhancedInterrogator Gawd

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    Buy it and let us know haha! Then open it up and a take a pic of internals so we can see if it's using analogix chips or what have you.
     
  18. Aktan

    Aktan n00bie

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    I would, but it's a bit expensive, lol. We'll see.
     
  19. Derupter

    Derupter [H]Lite

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    Well,if this can really handle 2560x1600 on the VGA output it should be the Analogix chip and if it works well and without signal problems or input lag is a very interesting product for the price,also it doesn't require the internal card.
    We could contact Sunix to know what hardware is inside that box.
    Pixel clock is 270 MHz because they always use the CVT reduced blanking when indicate those resolutions
     
  20. Aktan

    Aktan n00bie

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    I emailed the USA address last night. I did quote them the wrong pixel clock though, since I didn't think it be CVT. We'll see if the USA branch knows anything, lol.
     
  21. Derupter

    Derupter [H]Lite

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    Don't worry about pixel clock,probably they don't even know what it is,the important thing is to know the name of the chip inside the box.
     
  22. Aktan

    Aktan n00bie

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    Funny you mention that. I just got a response and here is what they said:

    I Googled that chipset and found this:

    http://www.delock.de/produkte/H/87685/merkmale.html?setLanguage=en

    Delock's product page unfortunately says max output of 1920 x 1200 @ 60 Hz for VGA :(
     
  23. Derupter

    Derupter [H]Lite

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    That chip seems to be only a Displayport MST HUB,there should be others IC for video conversion.
    Anyway that Delock box seems to be the same product and clearly VGA is indicated as 1920x1200 60 Hz.
    Since you are in contact with Sunix,try to ask them what chip is inside the C2VC7A0 and C2VC7AD,those USB-C to VGA adapters have 2560x1600 in specs.
     
  24. Aktan

    Aktan n00bie

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  25. Aktan

    Aktan n00bie

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    Here is what Sunix said about C2VC7A0 and C2VC7AD:

     
  26. Moxieman00

    Moxieman00 n00bie

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    In Watertown and willing to make the drive if you still have that
     
  27. Derupter

    Derupter [H]Lite

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    Thanks,another USB-C adapter to add to the list,now we have:
    Delock 62796
    Plugable USBC-VGA
    Sunix C2VC7A0
    So that VMM2322 has an integrated DAC and is Synaptics and not Synopsys?
     
  28. Aktan

    Aktan n00bie

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    I'm pretty sure the contact just typoed it since VMM2322 Google results doesn't list anything but the Synaptics one. Plus the fact that the Synaptics VMM2322 is also a "Hub with DP/VGA/HDMI out" is too much a coincidence to think it isn't the same one.
     
  29. Xavious7

    Xavious7 n00bie

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    Actually already gave it to a guy in this forum. Sorry! Didn't even realize so many people here were close enough to grab it.
     
  30. jbltecnicspro

    jbltecnicspro [H]ardness Supreme

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    Just wanted to drop by and see how my CRT buddies are doing. I picked up a 9-inch PVM monitor yesterday to have in my toolshed (I have some tools that have video output that would benefit from having a portable CRT monitor) and let's just say I get the hype now. It doesn't have a ton of resolution but it's basically like a little TV on steroids. Most likely will upgrade to a bigger PVM/BVM for video games in the future. :)
     
  31. Mumble

    Mumble [H]Lite

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    You can get a few models of Consumers TV and do a very simple OSD RGB mod for RGB, bigger then most BVM/PVMS outside the D24 and D32
     
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  32. jbltecnicspro

    jbltecnicspro [H]ardness Supreme

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    I know what you're talking about. Maybe one day when I have the skills. As it is I'd never get a D24 or D32 for the prices they command. I'd rather get another crt projector which also does RGB (and has more resolution to boot). :)
     
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  33. EnhancedInterrogator

    EnhancedInterrogator Gawd

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    Yeah, I lucked out and have a hospital equipment reseller nearby, and they have stacks and stacks of 21" and 14" PVM's. I bought 3 21" of various models. They're way more important to me than my PC CRT's. Because when playing stuff like SNES and Genesis, there's really no better way than on a 15kHz CRT.

    From what I read, it doesn't seem too difficult.

    https://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=56155
     
  34. spacediver

    spacediver 2[H]4U

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    Good to hear from you :)

    Glad you're still riding the analog wave. Still going strong here. The ability to connect my work laptop to FW900 @ 1920x1200, 85 hz means that when I work from home I can be super productive.
     
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  35. NamelessPFG

    NamelessPFG Limp Gawd

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    I still don't have any PVMs or BVMs, but I'd prioritize resurrecting my GDMs (especially my dearly departed FW900) over getting one of those. Got a 24" WEGA for retrogaming; just need an RGB-to-component transcoder to make the most of it from a 15 KHz standpoint.

    No, the consumer WEGA isn't PVM/BVM/GDM quality; I notice horizontal bloom distortion depending on what colors are shown on the image, which can only be mitigated by turning the brightness down considerably. Still beats the pants off of most SDTVs that I would've played those consoles with back in the '90s, though, and light guns like my GunCon work fine with it.

    I might aim more for an NEC XM29/XV29/XP29 to replace the WEGA, though. Can't go wrong with that sheer size, especially if light gun games are your jam, and they're not all that convex by shadow mask standards. The tricky part is finding one without screwed-up geometry that can't be corrected in the OSD, like what happened with the XV29 Plus I used to have 'til I replaced it with the WEGA because the geometry was THAT bad. Flared on top, or pinched on bottom, with linearity errors in between...
     
  36. worm_bagged

    worm_bagged n00bie

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    Got my FW900 home after fixing G2 drift via WinDAS. I have to do it again because now it's too dark and im locked out of the OSD. I think you have to finalize the settings with the final step under "procedure" to get the OSD to unlock. It's useable at the least. Also, the image occasionally loses focus and waves for a split second then shuts off on even rarer occasion. But I used it for several hours with no issue so it's not prevalent. I'm not sure what the cause is.
     
  37. Aktan

    Aktan n00bie

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    I have great news! I just received the SUNIX DPU3000 and I got a resolution of 2048x1536 at 80 Hz in CVT timing! According to the linux command CVT, that's a pixel clock of 362.50 MHz! My CRT can't handle higher resoltuon/refresh rate, so I can't test the limit, but what SUNIX says on their website for resolution support of 2560x2160@60 Hz might be true!
     
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  38. Strat_84

    Strat_84 Limp Gawd

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    That's interesting indeed. There are 2 pending questions now:
    - how is the image quality ?
    - is there any added input lag ?
     
  39. Aktan

    Aktan n00bie

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    Image quality looks fine, I'll be using it for a while to test. I need to get a mini DP to DP cable first to use my new GPU as it came with only a mini DP to mini DP cable, which my old GPU supports.

    I've not noticed input lag, but again, I'll be testing for a while.

    Edit: AMD Radeon Settings says I'm using 5.4 Gbps x 4 link which is indeed DP 1.2 speeds.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2018 at 2:47 PM
  40. EnhancedInterrogator

    EnhancedInterrogator Gawd

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    Wow, that's pretty good. That high of a pixel clock is good for some of the fastest-scanning 4:3 CRT's. But for widescreen resolutions it might not be enough, depending on how high it can go. An FW900 can easily display 4k at 48hz interlaced (96hz technically), but that's over a 550mHz pixel clock.

    So there's always room to grow, but if this Sunix device is zero-lag with good color reproduction, it's going to meed the needs of most users here.

    EDIT: Aktan , speaking of interlaced, since you're on an AMD card, can you try creating a high interlaced resolution in CRU, like 3200x2400? I'm wondering if there's a max interlaced resolution for displayport. When I make interlaced resolutions on my AMD card over VGA, I can't use anything that has more than 2720 pixels horizontally. It just doesn't show up in my display settings
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2018 at 4:49 PM