24" Widescreen CRT (FW900) From Ebay arrived,Comments.

LAGRUNAUER

Gawd
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Once calibrated, how sharp is the text on these CRT monitors? I recall text always being slightly blurry or blurrier on CRT displays than on LCD displays, which, along with the size, is the only thing that bothers me about CRT monitors.

Also, is it true that ULMB/LightBoost motion on LCD's is only as clear/clean or close to being a clear/clean as CRT's motion when framerate is at 120fps (on LCD's)? Does that mean that ULMB/LightBoost on LCD monitors is significantly slower at 30fps than the same 30fps on CRT monitors, even if CRT monitors' refresh rates are below that of 120Hz, such as 60/75/85Hz?

THE SONY GDM-FW900 IS NOT A TEXT MONITOR!!!! IT IS A GRAPHIC's MONITOR!!!

Once you fully understand the GDM-FW900's design and performance, then you will answer your own questions...

And one more thing... "LCD's CANNOT AND WILL NOT BEAT THE GLASS..."


UV!
 

LAGRUNAUER

Gawd
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No it is not, not even my Eizo Foris FG2421's 4700:1 contrast ratio and black levels before / after calibration are dark enough and respectable. 4700:1 contrast ratio is somewhat better by a multiple of ~1.5x-2x than acceptable 3000:1 (~2500:1 in reality) contrast ratio. CRT's, however, excel at that @ contrast ratio. At least new CRT units or units in excellent condition can have nearly infinite contrast ratio. High-end plasma TV's have contrast ratios as high as ~15000(+):1. Now THAT is respectable.

Do do not forget that nearly all 3000:1 VA panels have ~2500:1 contrast ratio even before calibration and usually around ~2400:1 after calibration, but it also varies due to poor uniformity from unit to unit, from model to model, and from location to location on the screen! My FG2421's very center measures ~4000:1, but about 70% of the screen around the center measures ~4500-4700:1 and closer to the edges, contrast ratio falls to as low as ~3700:1. It is another reason why CRT's and plasma TV's are so much better - they have excellent uniformity. Their contrast ratio's stay static around the screen, with very mild fluctuations, if any.

Then there are poor viewing angles on VA panels and gamma shift problems, but not as bad as TN's suckage. FG2421's biggest defect that almost ALL units suffer is from either bad or really bad gamma shift on all the edges. It can be so severe that in some cases it results in obviously brighter image (around the edges), but its mostly limited to specific grayscale levels when they are viewed as fullscreen patterns. It is usually most noticeable on the right edge near the bezel and least noticeable on the top and bottom edges. It doesn't affect black levels because gamma doesn't change the lowest black level. Several very dark gray levels produce only a mild gamma shift effect around the edges, but as you go up in gray levels, the issue becomes more pronounced until you start reaching brighter grays. This defect is rarely seen in games, but can be quite bad when watching films, which tend to use those problematic dark grayscale levels. Some units have it worse and some barely have it, but I am certain ALL of them have to some degree. Some people think that this effect is backlight bleeding, but I assure you it is not - it is gamma shift defect. If it would be backlight bleeding, then it would affect the blackest level, but it does not. Here's how it looks like (in the worst of cases):

Grayscale level where the defect is very obvious
10854075026_34bb41bfe6_b.jpg


Graysclae level where the defect is less obvious
10744337685_41cb6e90cd_b.jpg


The 2nd picture from the top is the worst case for my units. I've never seen it as bad as shown on the 1st picture from the top, no matter which fullscreen patterns I tried. Again, color images are rarely / barely affected. Here's a good FG2421 review with a ton of images that do not show this defect at all. Notice black pattern does not show it at all it is not a backlight bleed.

Some units can also shut off and restart several times a day or once in a while. This monitor also does not have accurate green and red colors @ 100% saturation, BUT those saturation levels are barely used. Color accuracy is not the same as image / color quality, saturation levels @ 75% and below are more accurate than @ 100% saturation with a small error of dE ~3.5 and below, including skin tones. There is also an effect of having some "dirt" under the screen.

The only reason that made Eizo Foris FG2421 possible are Eizo's $6000 industrial monitors created for satellite imagery applications. These industrial monitors have very stringent quality controls. Only 1 out of however many panels is acceptable to go into that one of these monitors. The rest of the really poor units are most likely full discarded. Other units which failed to pass industrial monitor's heavy quality control, but are not of really poor quality are used for Eizo Foris FG2421. Yes, FG2421 technically uses defective panels. This is likely the reason for that gamma shift defect and why some units have that defect worse / better than others. I doubt that the $6000 monitors have it.

With all that said, IMHO, FG2421 remains to be a non-industrial consumer monitor with a really good image quality due to pretty decent contrast ratio for an LCD display and very good Turbo 240 motion clarity @ 120Hz. No other non-industrial consumer LCD monitor has both of these important gaming factors in the same unit - (1) very good image quality & (2) very good motion clarity. Aside from this monitor and industrial-level panels, you either get a moderately decent image quality with acceptable ~ 2500:1 contrast ratio, BUT at only poor / blurry 60-70Hz (when compared against Turbo 240 / LightBoost / ULMB) that other VA panels are limited to. TN / IPS panels are the opposite of VA monitors as far as these 2 gaming aspects go - they have poor image quality due to un-acceptable contrast ratio of 1000:1 and below, IPS glow, IPS backlight bleeding, TN super-bad viewing angles and terrible color accuracy, BUT recent TN and IPS panels have excellent motion clarity @ 120-144Hz and ULMB.

VA panels (aside from FG2421):
+ Good image quality
- Poor motion clarity

IPS/TN panels:
- Poor image quality
+ Great motion clarity

Eizo Foris FG2421:
+ Great image quality
+ Great motion clarity

These 2 Pro's make FG2421 to be the best consumer LCD for gaming, over-compensating for all the Con's it has. A strong 4/5 monitor. It also has a really nice semi-glossy screen with very clear pixels and only a mild amount of matte grain. However, Eizo Foris FG2421 is NOT as good as CRT's, especially Sony's Trinitron FW900 when it comes to image quality, color accuracy, and motion clarity. If I had more $$$, FW900 would be the first thing I'd buy as long as it can be calibrated to have text almost as sharp as test on an LCD, which I am not sure is possible. Until then I will stick to my FG2421 and not trade it for any monitor that doesn't improve upon the 2 factors most important for gaming - great image quality with high contrast ratio & clear motion.


If you pay close attention to the image quality, all LCD's without exception suffer from the same issue... Backlight bleeding... Some worst than others, but all do have this issue.

When LCDs are being calibrated, and the background is black, it's supposed to be pitch black, but it is not... This issue does affect calibration...

UV!
 

LAGRUNAUER

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Man you [H]ard people are causing me problems. Between this thread and a "retro" gaming thread over a gaf, I had to dig out my Sony Trinitron. Sony GDM C520. Still in great condition. Now I have to go out of my way to include this in my current setup. Fuck you all. :mad: Seriously, I might need a new desk or some shit like that.

The GDM-C520 Artisan is an excellent monitor that, when properly calibrated and adjusted, will reproduce accurate colors.

No need to be upset... You are one of the lucky owners of one of these truly jewels...

UV!
 

jbltecnicspro

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Man you [H]ard people are causing me problems. Between this thread and a "retro" gaming thread over a gaf, I had to dig out my Sony Trinitron. Sony GDM C520. Still in great condition. Now I have to go out of my way to include this in my current setup. Fuck you all. :mad: Seriously, I might need a new desk or some shit like that.

Welcome to the club. I love my Artisan. ;)
 

etienne51

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That's great news!

Btw, I just sent an email to HDFury to see if they can tell me more about their plans for the near future. Apparently they already planned on releasing a device that will handle 4K resolutions.
Since HDMI 2.0 has a 600MHz bandwidth, I suppose there's a great chance for us to see a VGA adapter from them, sometime soon, that will perfectly handle the entire resolution range of our beloved CRT monitors.

EDIT: Just found some interesting news on the subject here. It confirms what I thought, and apparently the next HDFury will probably even have DisplayPort input.
 
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etienne51

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I just found a website from UK which apparently has a lot of replacement FBTs in stock.

http://sonyweb.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=16930

Well, I don't know this website, I found no informations anywhere about customers, so I sent them an email to get more informations.
Actually, they say they have 7224 units in stock! That's a huge amount of replacement FBTs, specially when I thought there were none left anywhere. So I'll see.

Please let me know what you guys think about that...
 

jbltecnicspro

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That's great news!

Btw, I just sent an email to HDFury to see if they can tell me more about their plans for the near future. Apparently they already planned on releasing a device that will handle 4K resolutions.
Since HDMI 2.0 has a 600MHz bandwidth, I suppose there's a great chance for us to see a VGA adapter from them, sometime soon, that will perfectly handle the entire resolution range of our beloved CRT monitors.

EDIT: Just found some interesting news on the subject here. It confirms what I thought, and apparently the next HDFury will probably even have DisplayPort input.

I just got a little giddy reading this. :D
 

jbltecnicspro

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I just found a website from UK which apparently has a lot of replacement FBTs in stock.

http://sonyweb.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=16930

Well, I don't know this website, I found no informations anywhere about customers, so I sent them an email to get more informations.
Actually, they say they have 7224 units in stock! That's a huge amount of replacement FBTs, specially when I thought there were none left anywhere. So I'll see.

Please let me know what you guys think about that...

150 pounds is a lot, but if that's the only thing wrong with your monitor then it may be worth it. It may be worth it to anyone who wants to own a GDM monitor.
 

LAGRUNAUER

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745
I just found a website from UK which apparently has a lot of replacement FBTs in stock.

http://sonyweb.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=16930

Well, I don't know this website, I found no informations anywhere about customers, so I sent them an email to get more informations.
Actually, they say they have 7224 units in stock! That's a huge amount of replacement FBTs, specially when I thought there were none left anywhere. So I'll see.

Please let me know what you guys think about that...

According to Sony PartsPlus, only accessible to Sony service centers, which controls the entire inventory of Sony parts (and others), there were only 7 pieces left in the whole world, and they were in stock in Japan back in 2009.

I am so surprised that 7,224 units are in stock elsewhere. Unless the outfit that has it was an assembly line, and I don't know of any in the UK, I am a bit skeptical of this claim.

Now, if these claims are valid, that is great news for the GDM-FW900 community!

UV!
 
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Falkentyne

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No it is not, not even my Eizo Foris FG2421's 4700:1 contrast ratio and black levels before / after calibration are dark enough and respectable. 4700:1 contrast ratio is somewhat better by a multiple of ~1.5x-2x than acceptable 3000:1 (~2500:1 in reality) contrast ratio. CRT's, however, excel at that @ contrast ratio. At least new CRT units or units in excellent condition can have nearly infinite contrast ratio. High-end plasma TV's have contrast ratios as high as ~15000(+):1. Now THAT is respectable.

(snip)

Monarch:
Would you ever consider buying one of the industrial units?
Would they even hook to a PC?
I'd love to see a review of one of those. It would make for interesting reading.
 
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Just picked up a GDM-FW9010 (Sun rebrand) on the 26th of April in really good condition. I'm attempting to connect the ECS connector on the back of the monitor to a USB to TTL converter. I was testing which wire was 5v and i'm reading the following.

1=GND
2=5V
3=RX
4=TX
*viewed top to bottom from the rear of monitor

I'm reading 5V between pins 1+2 as expected and between 1+4. What has me worried is there is 5V at TX, is this normal or did I fry something?
After plugging in the cable, my monitor will shut off and blink yellow regardless if on or off until I unplug it. Please don't tell me I fried something.
 
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etienne51

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Just picked up a GDM-FW9010 (Sun rebrand) on the 26th of April in really good condition. I'm attempting to connect the ECS connector on the back of the monitor to a USB to TTL converter. I was testing which wire was 5v and i'm reading the following.

1=GND
2=5V
3=RX
4=TX
*viewed top to bottom from the rear of monitor

I'm reading 5V between pins 1+2 as expected and between 1+4. What has me worried is there is 5V at TX, is this normal or did I fry something?
After plugging in the cable, my monitor will shut off and blink yellow regardless if on or off until I unplug it. Please don't tell me I fried something.

Your cable seems to be ok. Look at my post here where I described the cable I'm using with my Sony GDM-FW900.

I said the following, for the cable side.

GND / +5V / TXD / RXD (from top, to bottom)

On the monitor side, the pins are as you described, in the right order. So as you can see you have to reverse RX and TX on the cable for it to work. RX on the monitor have to be hooked up to TX on the cable, and same thing for TX on the monitor, with RX on the cable.
And no, fortunately, I don't think you fried anything, this is a normal behavior. It happened with me sometimes, I don't remember what was the cause exactly.
 

etienne51

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According to Sony PartsPlus, only accessible to Sony service centers, which controls the entire inventory of Sony parts (and others), there were only 7 pieces left in the whole world, and they were in stock in Japan back in 2009.

I am so surprised that 7,224 units are in stock elsewhere. Unless the outfit that has it was an assembly line, and I don't know of any in the UK, I am a bit skeptical of this claim.

Now, if these claims are valid, that is great news for the GDF-FW900 community!

UV!

I was worried about that actually. I didn't know those details, but I thought it was a bit weird to see such a huge stock of FBTs still available by now.

I asked them for a photo of one of their units, if they can provide me that. If not, I won't buy anyway, I have to be sure.

I just got a little giddy reading this. :D

Well, they answered my email, but they told me nothing. And they have NDA btw, I didn't know that.

Anyway, the link I found earlier have plenty of very interesting informations for the future of HDFury.
If it turns out that the next HDFury 5 handles at least 400MHz of bandwidth, then we will finally be able to hook up our units right into the latest DisplayPorts and HDMI sources, and we won't have to worry about future graphics cards not supporting analog anymore.

Sadly, the main drawback is the fact that this device will need to be bought in addition to the graphics card. We will need one for each monitor used simultaneously, and I'm sure it won't be cheap...

Man you [H]ard people are causing me problems. Between this thread and a "retro" gaming thread over a gaf, I had to dig out my Sony Trinitron. Sony GDM C520. Still in great condition. Now I have to go out of my way to include this in my current setup. Fuck you all. :mad: Seriously, I might need a new desk or some shit like that.
Welcome to the club. I love my Artisan. ;)

That's great if we have a new member! Welcome!

One day, I have to buy one of these as well, a Sony GDM-C520K Artisan. This will probably happen as soon as I'm done with my studies, and find a good job.
And I hope that by then, Unkle Vito will still have one to sell, and... willing to ship it to me. :D
 
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LAGRUNAUER

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I was worried about that actually. I didn't know those details, but I thought it was a bit weird to see such a huge stock of FBTs still available by now.

I asked them for a photo of one of their units, if they can provide me that. If not, I won't buy anyway, I have to be sure.



Well, they answered my email, but they told me nothing. And they have NDA btw, I didn't know that.

Anyway, the link I found earlier have plenty of very interesting informations for the future of HDFury.
If it turns out that the next HDFury 5 handles at least 400MHz of bandwidth, then we will finally be able to hook up our units right into the latest DisplayPorts and HDMI sources, and we won't have to worry about future graphics cards not supporting analog anymore.

Sadly, the main drawback is the fact that this device will need to be bought in addition to the graphics card. We will need one for each monitor used simultaneously, and I'm sure it won't be cheap...




That's great if we have a new member! Welcome!

One day, I have to buy one of these as well, a Sony GDM-C520K Artisan. This will probably happen as soon as I'm done with my studies, and find a good job.
And I hope that by then, Unkle Vito will still have one to sell, and... willing to ship it to me. :D

We have GDM-C520K in stock including one with a zero (0) hours of use.

UV!
 

etienne51

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We have GDM-C520K in stock including one with a zero (0) hours of use.

UV!

That's good to know, especially for the new one. Is it one of the two you kept you were talking about in one of your previous posts?

Sadly, I think maybe I'll buy one in about 2 years from now. I think someone would have already bought it by then. If not, I'll probably become an happy owner of a brand new Artisan. :D
 
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I have successfully connected my PC to the monitor via windas and the ECS connector. I've made several *.DAT backups of the EEPROM after several hour monitor warmup. I've found various calibration tutorials on pot focus adjustment, geometry, convergence, WPB, etc. but don't they have to be performed in a particular order? Just ordered a ColorEyes X-Rite DTP-94 so hopefully that will be of use without a signal generator? I'm new to all of this so if i'm asking the same question others have, i'm sorry in advance! This post has a lot of information. Right now i'm looking at the index of page numbers, now what?
 

spacediver

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You can do a WPB without doing the other adjustments. And you'll be fine using your PC as a signal generator, as described here.
 

jbltecnicspro

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That's good to know, especially for the new one. Is it one of the two you kept you were talking about in one of your previous posts?

Sadly, I think maybe I'll buy one in about 2 years from now. I think someone would have already bought it by then. If not, I'll probably become an happy owner of a brand new Artisan. :D

Nothing wrong with owning his pre-owned, calibrated units. I myself have one.
 

etienne51

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I have successfully connected my PC to the monitor via windas and the ECS connector. I've made several *.DAT backups of the EEPROM after several hour monitor warmup. I've found various calibration tutorials on pot focus adjustment, geometry, convergence, WPB, etc. but don't they have to be performed in a particular order? Just ordered a ColorEyes X-Rite DTP-94 so hopefully that will be of use without a signal generator? I'm new to all of this so if i'm asking the same question others have, i'm sorry in advance! This post has a lot of information. Right now i'm looking at the index of page numbers, now what?

So like spacediver said, I think WPB is independant, so you can start by doing this.

Then, if you think your monitor is out of focus, even slightly, I'd recommand you to fix that before running other adjustments like convergence.

One thing really important. Never try to do a complete reset using MPU, it's not recommanded at all.

If you don't have a signal generator, you can indeed still use your PC as one, but it won't be as accurate as a device made for that specific purpose. But it will still be good enough for home calibration.
In case you need it, here is a spreadsheet I made, which lists most of the modes WinDAS needs for the different procedures. Be careful NOT to use "Mode 7" which is beyond the FW900 specs.
 

etienne51

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Nothing wrong with owning his pre-owned, calibrated units. I myself have one.

No, of course, that's not what I said. But come on, a brand new unit, in 2015? :D

For example, I'm pretty sure that one day, I'll end up buying another FW900 from him. Mine won't last forever, even if I repair the FBT this time. And this one won't be brand new.
 

spacediver

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If you don't have a signal generator, you can indeed still use your PC as one, but it won't be as accurate as a device made for that specific purpose. But it will still be good enough for home calibration.
In case you need it, here is a spreadsheet I made, which lists most of the modes WinDAS needs for the different procedures. Be careful NOT to use "Mode 7" which is beyond the FW900 specs.

For the WPB, I can't think of a reason that a signal generator would be more accurate. For geometry and convergence, where a quality video signal is important for best possible rendering of lines, a signal generator may possible have an edge (although even that's debatable with modern video cards), but for a WPB where luminance and chromaticity is being measured over a large area, I'm confident that there's absolutely no difference, so long as you take the necessary steps to ensure a normalized and linear LUT is being used during signal generation (this is covered in the WPB guide).
 

etienne51

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Indeed. About geometry and convergence, I think I'll trust a SG better than my graphics card.

I still don't have one to compare but as soon as I find one somewhere, I'll see what I decide. For the moment I have other priorities until my monitor is back to perfectly working order.
 

jbltecnicspro

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Indeed. About geometry and convergence, I think I'll trust a SG better than my graphics card.

I still don't have one to compare but as soon as I find one somewhere, I'll see what I decide. For the moment I have other priorities until my monitor is back to perfectly working order.

I have a signal generator. I'd be more than happy to compare the outputs of the two (for geometry and convergence at least). Shooting from the hip though, any convergence issues displayed with a crosshatch on the signal generator are usually repeatable on my graphics card.

The part where signal generators excel though, is that they are dedicated machines for the sole purpose of pattern generation. No hardware or software layers to abstract. No need to second guess whether or not the GUI rendering engine is doing it right or not.

I've been trying to do pattern generation on my computer for my CRT TV, and it's been a pain in the ass, to say the least. Even when I got the right mode and resolution selected, I don't know if I'm actually doing it right. Whereas if I had a Sencore VP-series pattern generator, all I do is select an HD mode, select a pattern, and BAM - get to work. No second-guessing.
 

LAGRUNAUER

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That's good to know, especially for the new one. Is it one of the two you kept you were talking about in one of your previous posts?

Sadly, I think maybe I'll buy one in about 2 years from now. I think someone would have already bought it by then. If not, I'll probably become an happy owner of a brand new Artisan. :D

That's correct! One of those two... One is for sale, the other is for keeps...

UV!
 

LAGRUNAUER

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I have a signal generator. I'd be more than happy to compare the outputs of the two (for geometry and convergence at least). Shooting from the hip though, any convergence issues displayed with a crosshatch on the signal generator are usually repeatable on my graphics card.

The part where signal generators excel though, is that they are dedicated machines for the sole purpose of pattern generation. No hardware or software layers to abstract. No need to second guess whether or not the GUI rendering engine is doing it right or not.

I've been trying to do pattern generation on my computer for my CRT TV, and it's been a pain in the ass, to say the least. Even when I got the right mode and resolution selected, I don't know if I'm actually doing it right. Whereas if I had a Sencore VP-series pattern generator, all I do is select an HD mode, select a pattern, and BAM - get to work. No second-guessing.


That's the right way to do it...
 

flod

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I've been trying to do pattern generation on my computer for my CRT TV, and it's been a pain in the ass, to say the least. Even when I got the right mode and resolution selected, I don't know if I'm actually doing it right.

i just use gimp, make images with the resolution i want, and draw whatever i want. then save image and display as fullscreen in irfanview or something

since you can just zoom in with gimp and see individual pixels, i've never had any doubt that the geometry of the images i make is perfect
 

jbltecnicspro

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For monitors it's less risky to use your PC as a pattern generator. But then when you get to television territory, it gets hairy. In my future, I see a Sencore VP-401 purchase.
 

spacediver

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yep, if you know what you're doing when you're creating and displaying your test patterns (i.e. correct dimensions, no antialiasing, correct display mode), then the only possible advantage a signal generator has over a video card, other than convenience, is a guaranteed quality video signal. And, even this is debatable.

The convenience factor is huge though, especially for portability and servicing multiple tubes, some of which may not be easily hooked up to a PC (like a TV for example, as per jbl's post).
 

jbltecnicspro

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Does the quantum data one you have support customized patterns and modes?

Yes it does. Even if it wasn't compatible with WinDAS, you can create your own custom modes, name them, and program your own custom patterns. This makes it very valuable for calibration. If I didn't have a serial connection, I could simply dial-in the correct mode specified by WinDAS. I could even name them accordingly. :)
 
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After attempting to adjust geometry in windas, my brain couldn't take all the warping so I gave up and reloaded a default EEPROM dump. There has to be a method to this instead of 'what looks good' because I dont trust my eyes. Take a look at what I mean viewing the image below.

An inch from the bottom left corner of the screen is 'bent' upwards and the start button on the taskbar makes the geometrical error really evident. It is bad enough to be distracting. Maybe taping stripes of computer paper in strategic places will help 'square' everything up as a guide? If only I knew what I was trying to accomplish with all the geometry 'modes' because they all affect one another and it throws me off. On rotation, am I making the bottom parallel with the bezel or the top, or both? I could go on and on. Then there is pincushion that makes the monitor look like a pillow and it makes me tired. I failed geometry in HS but I don't remember a shape called 'pincushion.' There is a joke in there somewhere. :)

srYTkVL.jpg
 
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spacediver

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Yes it does. Even if it wasn't compatible with WinDAS, you can create your own custom modes, name them, and program your own custom patterns. This makes it very valuable for calibration. If I didn't have a serial connection, I could simply dial-in the correct mode specified by WinDAS. I could even name them accordingly. :)

so why on earth would you waste money on a sencore?
 

jbltecnicspro

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so why on earth would you waste money on a sencore?

Because the Quantum Data is VGA/RGB only. It does not handle Component video nor digital HDTV signals. You could finagle it probably, but it has no formal television output. The Sencore can handle the television inputs.
 

jbltecnicspro

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ah, understood.

Yep! Actually, you got me thinking. I'm going to check my manual to see if there's a way I can turn the RGB output into component video output. I see already on the machine that in the RGBHV output, H can be HS or CS. I'm guessing this means Horizontal or Composite Sync. There's also a Sync Gate on the machine, so I'll do some digging. Perhaps I don't need to get another generator after all! :)

There was another 801 produced that DOES have TV output. But I believe it's just Composite and S-Video.
 

flod

Gawd
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Jul 10, 2014
Messages
948
For monitors it's less risky to use your PC as a pattern generator. But then when you get to television territory, it gets hairy. In my future, I see a Sencore VP-401 purchase.

for pc monitors, afaik, the risk is pretty much nonexistant provided you know what you're doing
i have no idea about tvs
 
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