24" Widescreen CRT (FW900) From Ebay arrived,Comments.

SH1 said:
Only if it's also scratched I would hope...
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It's in pretty good shape, although when there is a direct glare on it from a light, you can see a "dirty" texture.

Main reason for removing it is so that I can get a purer image, and also curious to see if and how the chromaticity changes.
 
spacediver said:
very cool, you are a brave pioneer! :)

For my own purposes, I see absolutely no reason (yet) to go with a signal generator, but I would love to have one for calibrating units at the lab, as it makes the whole workflow much more portable and consistent.

Let us know how WinDAS interprets the modes - (i.e. does it give the correct mode number when you feed in the correct signal timings). I mean, if you get WinDAS to interface with the generator automatically, you won't have to do this, but would be interesting to see if WinDAS still interprets the mode as a different number if you do it manually.
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Well, I played around with it last night. And get this - WinDAS still interprets the correct timings as the wrong mode... I'm not sure what to think actually. I haven't tried the serial connection, but I have to admit that this was a big bummer. I wonder if the version on the net is simply flawed? Did Gregua screw something up in the patching process? I'd love to find a legit WinDAS package out there on Ebay. But of course, that's nowhere to be found...

EDIT: I forgot to mention that with SOME tweaking I was able to get more modes to sync up, but I don't really know what's going on. The 801GG won't allow me to adjust the back porch, so maybe that's the issue? Other than that, I have everything else down to the microsecond (horizontal) and line (vertical), and bandwidth... And still - some modes won't sync. Here's to hoping the serial cable is the solution.

Double-EDIT: It looks like the 801GG has a bunch of VESA modes on it, which WinDAS uses to do Factory Presets on the P991. I'm going to go ahead and give those a try also, and see what comes of it. The couple of VESA timings I used on the 801GG proved to work on WinDAS. Hopefully the rest of them do too. Now - what to do with some of the funky resolutions? I don't know. Maybe the serial cable will clear it up...
 
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spacediver said:
It's in pretty good shape, although when there is a direct glare on it from a light, you can see a "dirty" texture.

Main reason for removing it is so that I can get a purer image, and also curious to see if and how the chromaticity changes.
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I'd personally defer to Sony's engineers on this. However, you undoubtedly already know the implications of removing it with regard to day time usage...
 
jbltecnicspro said:
Well, I played around with it last night. And get this - WinDAS still interprets the correct timings as the wrong mode... I'm not sure what to think actually. I haven't tried the serial connection, but I have to admit that this was a big bummer. I wonder if the version on the net is simply flawed? Did Gregua screw something up in the patching process? I'd love to find a legit WinDAS package out there on Ebay. But of course, that's nowhere to be found...
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Interesting. It could be that the mode numbers only match up when WinDAS controls the signal generator directly. Or, as you say, it could be a bug. Given that it appears that you need to match mode numbers to do a factory preset, it might be a bug.

Either way, this doesn't bother me, as I'm confident I've got the timings correct, regardless of what WinDAS says about my mode number, and I don't see any value in factory preset.

jbltecnicspro said:
EDIT: I forgot to mention that with SOME tweaking I was able to get more modes to sync up, but I don't really know what's going on. The 801GG won't allow me to adjust the back porch, so maybe that's the issue? Other than that, I have everything else down to the microsecond (horizontal) and line (vertical), and bandwidth... And still - some modes won't sync. Here's to hoping the serial cable is the solution.
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I'm guessing it only allows you to adjust independent parameters (i.e. parameters that won't change other parameters that you've set). If it allows you to set front porch, sync width, active pixels, and total pixels, then you don't need to set back porch directly (see my previous posts).

Which modes are you having problems syncing up with? Give me the timing parameters.


jbltecnicspro said:
Double-EDIT: It looks like the 801GG has a bunch of VESA modes on it, which WinDAS uses to do Factory Presets on the P991. I'm going to go ahead and give those a try also, and see what comes of it. The couple of VESA timings I used on the 801GG proved to work on WinDAS. Hopefully the rest of them do too. Now - what to do with some of the funky resolutions? I don't know. Maybe the serial cable will clear it up...
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let us know!
 
SH1 said:
I'd personally defer to Sony's engineers on this. However, you undoubtedly already know the implications of removing it with regard to day time usage...
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Yep, am aware. I'm pretty sure my other FW900 has the AG removed and it looks great. Most people here, including Vito, report a better picture with it removed.
 
spacediver said:
Yep, am aware. I'm pretty sure my other FW900 has the AG removed and it looks great. Most people here, including Vito, report a better picture with it removed.
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Well...May very well be for an ultimate night time (or heavy drapes drawn) solution...
 
I couldn't really understand what XoR was saying. I'm not sure he was making much sense, but it could have been a language issue.

What did you take from that discussion?
 
I didn't originally understand when he was talking about the darkness of the phosphors, but eventually took that he was referring to how light colored the screen was with the AG film removed.
 
Yes, the screen looks lighter with the AG off, when the monitor is off. But was he saying that the black level suffered with AG off when monitor was on??
 
More like he was saying the FW900 generally suffered from poor black levels in a lit room and his unit's lack of the AG film appears to have contributed unknowingly to him to his impression of the monitor. Not sure he realized that he was comparing it against a CRT monitor with its AG coating intact...(or that while the FW900 uses a removable film, other monitor CRTs actually still have AG, but less conspicuously as a coating...)
 
The AG comes off all the FW900's The second one I got had it off and I removed the first and third monitors coatings. So much better. Just make sure the screen doesn't face any light sources.
 
Of course the black level suffers when you remove the AG. The black level can only be as dark as the face of the tube is. Since the AG darkens the tube a lot, black levels become really poor during daylight when you remove it. The flipside is that the AG also reduces maximum brightness a lot.

So, it's a toss-up. Since I can't set up my room to avoid all glare and I don't want it to be dark all the time, I actually regret removing mine. But, it was scratched so it was really bugging me. If I found an FW900 with a perfect anti-glare I would most likely not remove it the next time around.
 
Summary:

Pros:
Extends Life of the Tube because you can decrease Brightness and Contrast dramatically
Little bit sharper image overall
Brighter Image overall

Cons:
You cant get the "best" black level anymore (that doesn't means its bad on AG removed tubes)
Hardly usable with lightsources near you

SH1 said:
This discussion, when I realized he was referring to the color of the phosphor without the AG film, made me more weary:

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?p=1040297866#post1040297866

(Not that a CRT will look its best during the day in any case.)
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First Picture, these two are mine. Wow i had Logitech equipment back there ^^
 
I know that my screen's AG coat is scratched. Curious to see how bright it is compared. I agree with SH1 though. Once you remove the coating and it's indeed brighter, you can recalibrate the output and work the tube a lot less.
 
thanks for the info all. I'm going to do a white point balance on both my units (and confirm that one of them does indeed have AG removed), and see what the results look like. I think I'll be in a better position to make a judgment call then, but the info in these last few posts has been sobering :)
 
jbltecnicspro said:
Once you remove the coating and it's indeed brighter, you can recalibrate the output and work the tube a lot less.
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you know, this is something I've wondered about for a while. Based on the randy fromm videos (and I've only watched 2 out of the 4), the cathode has a finite number of electrons on it, so the electron gun truly has a limited life.

However, my understanding is that the heater heats the cathode, which releases electrons, so it would seem that the number of electrons that are released does not change depending on how bright you set your display. The things that determine how bright the display is are the voltages across G1, G2, G3 (and the anode).

Perhaps if those electrons aren't used up, they settle back onto the cathode? (doesn't sound likely, but hey what do I know).

I can see how the phosphors would decay faster with a brighter display, and I suppose the phosphors are as much a part of the tube as the guns are.

btw just found this.
 
I'm pretty sure that at higher brightness the cathodes get burnt out quicker. Just seems logical.
 
You may well be correct, but given the processes outlined in my previous post, it's an interesting exercise to figure out why they would get burnt out quicker.

Perhaps the reserve cloud of electrons hanging around the cathode create a kind of "osmotic" pressure. The more of them they are, the less likely it is for more to be stripped off the cathode. And when they are used up faster (by increased brightness), the reserve cloud dwindles, and there is more "room" for more electrons, so the cathode loses more electrons as a result.

All wild speculation, but it's kinda puzzling (and fascinating)!
 
FWIW before I discovered the AG removal technique I'd reverted to an IIYYAMA visionmaster pro 514 and I must say the difference in black levels between it and the FW900 were significant.

However, if I'd have known about the clarity difference sooner I would have taken of the AG ages ago. It's like having a new screen and I'm only running at 1920x1200. I can see the glare issues some folks might have but since I'm basically in a cave it doesn't affect me and no AG is hence the WTG.
 
Anyone speak Japanese? Found a marketing pdf for the Sony Qualia 015, an $11,000 dollar crt. Looks like a television, but I also heard it referred to as a CRT monitor (although the pdf makes it clear it's used as a TV).

Wonder what the specs were on that puppy :)


edit: just found this - looks like it may have only been 720p
 
that thing is a 36 inch crt tv yes. the whole qualia brand was aimed at japanese market i think, i doubt many even left the country...

If you want to know more about the so called "best" hd CRT tv alongside the "best" crt monitor, the fw900..

Pretty well every review and comparison on the BEST HDTV CRT picture display you could buy was always won by the Sony KD34XBR960. (never mind it was a 220lb pig )

It is 34 inch 1080i able 3D DIGITAL CRT TV.

This puppy had everything too: 3 firewire inputs, memory stick; HDMI; ATSC/NTSC/QAM tuners, DRC, cable card, and the best tube Sony has ever made: the Super Fine Pitch Trinitron.
 
My 34XBR960N is still going strong after 8 years and is the only remaining CRT in our home.

It's definitely proven to be a challenge whenever we've had to move it lol (196 lbs).

Gh0MHYo.jpg


rbDwApA.jpg
 
"made in mexico" ?! :confused:

never knew CRT tv or monitors got made in mexico. :p

p.s: i was looking so tense at the tv, that i didn't notice the cat next to it for a few minutes.. lmao
 
jbltecnicspro said:
Tube was probably made in Japan, along with the electronics. I would wager it was assembled in Mexico.
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Sounds right. My F520s were also made in Mexico, but there are some made in Japan stickers on some of the bits inside.

I remember seeing the last of those glorious 34XBR960N TVs on the clearance shelves. And now the final weeks of Panasonic plasma in retail if they last that long. I guess as soon as someone achieves a certain picture quality critical mass it is the end... :(
 
SH1 said:
Sounds right. My F520s were also made in Mexico, but there are some made in Japan stickers on some of the bits inside.

I remember seeing the last of those glorious 34XBR960N TVs on the clearance shelves. And now the final weeks of Panasonic plasma in retail if they last that long. I guess as soon as someone achieves a certain picture quality critical mass it is the end... :(
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Pretty much. I think that convenience will always trump quality on the consumer end. Just take a look at HiFi audio. To most, 256kbps MP3/AAC will be good enough. I actually fall under this category myself. Sure, I love lossless, but at higher bitrates (especially with AAC), I have trouble distinguishing. And I don't have a slouch of an audio system either.

And folks, before we look down on the "panel peasants," :)D) do remember that the FW900, F520, and Artisan were super expensive when they were released. If Sony's FW900 was made new today, you can expect a price tag of probably $3300 ($2500 calculated for inflation from 2001 to 2013). To compare these old kings-of-the-hill to some "prosumer" Eizo that costs a fraction of the king Trinitrons is just silly. Of course they're going to be better. I'm quite surprised that a $600 Eizo Foris can actually stand in the same room as the FW900.
 
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jbltecnicspro said:
Pretty much. I think that convenience will always trump quality on the consumer end. Just take a look at HiFi audio. To most, 256kbps MP3/AAC will be good enough. I actually fall under this category myself. Sure, I love lossless, but at higher bitrates (especially with AAC), I have trouble distinguishing. And I don't have a slouch of an audio system either.

And folks, before we look down on the "panel peasants," :)D) do remember that the FW900, F520, and Artisan were super expensive when they were released. If Sony's FW900 was made new today, you can expect a price tag of probably $3300 ($2500 calculated for inflation from 2001 to 2013). To compare these old kings-of-the-hill to some "prosumer" Eizo that costs a fraction of the king Trinitrons is just silly. Of course they're going to be better. I'm quite surprised that a $600 Eizo Foris can actually stand in the same room as the FW900.
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NO! It cannot... As of today... Nothing (EIZO, NEC, LaCie, Cinema Displays, etc) can't (I am being redundant) beat the glass... NOTHING!

Unkle Vito!
 
UNKLE VITO!!

Good to see that you are still reading this thread. Makes me happy to see an post from you. ;)
 
LAGRUNAUER said:
NO! It cannot... As of today... Nothing (EIZO, NEC, LaCie, Cinema Displays, etc) can't (I am being redundant) beat the glass... NOTHING!

Unkle Vito!
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I'm not sure how you read my statement, but I was saying that essentially nothing compares to the Trinitrons - especially the GDM line. ;)
 
Alright - this weekend I was able to do a "quickie" on WinDAS using the 801-GG. First and foremost, the serial cable interface works. It's a TON easier to do it this way, as WinDAS essentially does it all for you. That said, it' still reporting some wacky modes on the P991. I'm not sure what's going on at this point. I am an application developer by trade, and will do a couple of things to get this baby working right, and then I'll search for a solution. So far, what's really affected is the Factory Preset. I was able to align everything else and get the convergence good. I think it's a good start.
 
nice work jbl, very strange that windas is reporting incorrect modes. Really seems like the version we have may be slightly compromised (or maybe there was some bug all along with the software and our version doesn't have the fix).

If you get the chance, can you describe what the grayscale pattern looks like (the one that it asks u to load during the G2 adjustment in the WPB procedure).

Here is the 1600x1200 version I created
 
I finally got one of these monsters and it's awesome. A nice upgrade from a Dell P991. Hoping it lasts for years to come. I have a couple questions though:

1) The guy I bought it from says that WinDAS can tell you how many hours the monitor has. How can I check this?

2) I noticed the convergence was badly off at the lower right corner, so much that I maxed out a couple of settings on that portion. If the convergence drifts more, I am sol and will have to deal with it. What caused it to drift that badly?

Thanks in advance!
 
the new guy said:
I finally got one of these monsters and it's awesome. A nice upgrade from a Dell P991. Hoping it lasts for years to come. I have a couple questions though:

1) The guy I bought it from says that WinDAS can tell you how many hours the monitor has. How can I check this?
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See Vito's post on this. I think in order to get a rough estimate, you'd need a Sencore CR-70 or CR-7000.

the new guy said:
2) I noticed the convergence was badly off at the lower right corner, so much that I maxed out a couple of settings on that portion. If the convergence drifts more, I am sol and will have to deal with it. What caused it to drift that badly?
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You can fix this with a dynamic convergence procedure in WinDAS.

Here's a tutorial.
 
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