24" Widescreen CRT (FW900) From Ebay arrived,Comments.

spacediver

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load up windas, make sure the right model is selected, the right Ecs port is selected (you need to verify the com port of your cable), set SG Name to Manual, and you should be good to go.

Make sure you also run the activex.bat file in the activex folder.

I'm not sure, but perhaps running binpatch and patchdas (in main folder) can also help.
 

Kermie

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load up windas, make sure the right model is selected, the right Ecs port is selected (you need to verify the com port of your cable), set SG Name to Manual, and you should be good to go.

The right COM port and SG name is selected; I even disconnected the cable to make sure it was working and I got a monitor could not be found message which confirmed it was the right cable.

I'll try running these two to see if it makes a difference but I don't know if it will.
 

LAGRUNAUER

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I did another WPB on the P275 today. Let it warm up for 1.5 hours, and then went to work. For the 12 parameters it took me about 5-7 min each, and I hit the targets pretty close. However, when I ran through a check on HCFR afterwards, the delta E's weren't as low as I expected, although they were much better than my previous attempt (I think the settings didn't save last time I did it).

When I have time, I will wait for the readings to stabilize before proceeding with each step, as you recommend.

When you say you get delta E's of under 0.05% do you mean delta xy? Neither are percentage units - delta E is the three dimensional geometric distance between target and actual, in a perceptually normalized color space, and I think delta xy is the projection of that distance onto the 2D xy color space, ignoring perceptual normalization and ignoring luminance. Are you able to get your delta E's below 2, from 10%-100% gray levels?

To be honest, I found the geometry calibration more daunting than the WPB! Measuring the distance with a measuring tape is NO EASY TASK, because of parallax errors. In other words, the distance you measure depends on where your eye is. You have to make sure your eye is really aligned with each reference point before reading off the tape. Very tricky, especially when you're reading off the lower end of the monitor, (which in my case is sitting on my bed at the time, so I had to put my face right against the mattress!).

I've also been making test patterns as I go. When I've made an entire list, I will share them all, in all the relevant resolutions.

I have also found that the mode that WinDAS reports me as using does not match the mode it is requesting, despite everything looking fine, and despite the matching parameters. I was even able to get the 1770x1440 pattern for high freq geometry adjustment. I got the correct polarities, etc. But WinDAS said I was using mode 256. I'm not going to worry about that right now, however.


"Hit the targets pretty close" is not my standard and/or modus operandi...When I perform white balance adjustments on the units we service, we hit the targets dead on! And for that to happen you need to let the instrument take the measurement without ANY fluctuation. That means ZERO fluctuation! It does not take 5-7 minutes per parameter to achieve that.

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!
 

spacediver

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well all my targets were hit within the specified tolerances. So, for example, if it asked for x=0.313, y=0.329 + or - 0.01, I'd often hit it to within 0.002, which is 5 times as accurate as it was asking. And often I would get it dead on. That's what I mean by "pretty close". In fact, not one single x y adjustment was more than 0.003 off the mark. The luminance adjustments were also always within the specified tolerance.

And I was able to achieve this at both 30 IRE and 100 IRE after performing multiple iterative readjustments, for all reference color temperatures (although I only tested 6500 K with HCFR as that is what I am most interested in).

I can think of a few possible explanations:

1: I performed these adjustments with full field patterns, but in HCFR it tested with small field patterns - perhaps this was partially responsible for the results I got. I'll retest using the same patterns I used for the WinDAS adjustments, rather than using the patterns HCFR generates.

2: I'll have to recheck the results - I only looked at delta E, but not at delta xy. It could be that my delta xy was very low. The RGB curves did indeed look very tight across the grayscale. Either way, I'm more interested in delta E. Anyway, it will be a simple matter to see whether the chromaticities obtained after the WinDAS adjustment match up to what I was able to achieve during the adjustment.

3: Didn't wait long enough for sufficient stabilization. My main purpose in doing this last calibration was to see whether the adjustments were actually saved. I achieved that purpose.

4: At the end of the WPB, the monitor went through some sort of cycle, very similar to how it does during a color restore through the OSD. I wonder if this affected anything, although I doubt it.

5: There is a problem with the monitor.
 
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spacediver

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The right COM port and SG name is selected; I even disconnected the cable to make sure it was working and I got a monitor could not be found message which confirmed it was the right cable.

I'll try running these two to see if it makes a difference but I don't know if it will.

and are you running XP?
 

xln47862

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Hello Hardforum Fw900 Gurus..

I just acquired this wonderful piece of lost-tech..

However, the "RED" on mine looks kind of brighter-orange with a little brown tinge, I'm not sure if this is the "green tint" people are talking about..

I've tried changing settings through the osd and in windows to no avail..

Does anyone know the cause.. is it the cathode gun, voltage, discolored antiglare?
 

Ashratt

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did you try a color restore? it often sorts out things like that, it is accessible via the OSD.
 
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xln47862

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did you try a color restore? it often sorts out things like that, it is accessible via the OSD.

Yes I did the color restore. It did wonders for the black.

Blue and Green both look fine.. But red looks a brighter orange/ brown tinge.:rolleyes:
 

jbltecnicspro

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Yes I did the color restore. It did wonders for the black.

Blue and Green both look fine.. But red looks a brighter orange/ brown tinge.:rolleyes:

Hate to say it, but it could be a bad gun, or (hopefully) a bad resistor. Unkle Vito will be able to give you better advice than me though.
 

xln47862

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Is the red dying ? ( T ^ T )

vPxFp6c.jpg


Is the red dying ? ( T ^ T )
 

LAGRUNAUER

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Yes I did the color restore. It did wonders for the black.

Blue and Green both look fine.. But red looks a brighter orange/ brown tinge.:rolleyes:

The issue could be due to many things ranging from bad color transistor(s), bad gun(s), overdue white balance adjustment via WinDAS/WinCATs, or inaccurate color purity which may also need adjustment.

Again, this is an initial assessment based on your description without me performing a throughly checkup and diagnostics of this monitor.

Hope this helps...

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!
 

spacediver

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Yes I did the color restore. It did wonders for the black.

Blue and Green both look fine.. But red looks a brighter orange/ brown tinge.:rolleyes:

Do you have access to a colorimeter or spectroradiometer? If so, you could measure your primaries (and white) to get an idea of whether there is an issue.
 

spacediver

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Yes I did the color restore. It did wonders for the black.

Blue and Green both look fine.. But red looks a brighter orange/ brown tinge.:rolleyes:

Do you have access to a colorimeter or spectroradiometer? If so, you could measure your primaries (and white) to get an idea of whether there is an issue. When you make these measurements, make sure you are not in sRGB mode, so to ensure you are working with the native gamut.
 

xln47862

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The issue could be due to many things ranging from bad color transistor(s), bad gun(s), overdue white balance adjustment via WinDAS/WinCATs, or inaccurate color purity which may also need adjustment.

Again, this is an initial assessment based on your description without me performing a throughly checkup and diagnostics of this monitor.

Hope this helps...

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!

Do you have access to a colorimeter or spectroradiometer? If so, you could measure your primaries (and white) to get an idea of whether there is an issue. When you make these measurements, make sure you are not in sRGB mode, so to ensure you are working with the native gamut.

I do not have a colorimeter, my buddy who had one recently moved away.


Question about G2 voltage...

With the lights on.. blacks are already quite black on my screen.. Are we suppose to achieve a PERFECTLY BLACK screen with brightness @ ~30 with all the lights in the room off?
 
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xln47862

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Guys, is Resolution mode switching "bad" for the monitor?

Because I prefer the DESK and GAME resolution to be highest, while for Movies, I prefer 1920x1200 @ 96hz..which syncs better with 24fps material.
 

jbltecnicspro

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Guys, is Resolution mode switching "bad" for the monitor?

Because I prefer the DESK and GAME resolution to be highest, while for Movies, I prefer 1920x1200 @ 96hz..which syncs better with 24fps material.

Drop your refresh down to 72 hz for movies. Don't run the monitor higher than the recommended 85hz, as this will shorten its life.

EDIT: And fyi - FW900 will display 1920x1080 @72hz for HD movies natively.
 

xln47862

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Drop your refresh down to 72 hz for movies. Don't run the monitor higher than the recommended 85hz, as this will shorten its life.

EDIT: And fyi - FW900 will display 1920x1080 @72hz for HD movies natively.

I'm not sure what you mean it will display 72hz natively, the monitor obeys the gfx card, and the gfx doesn't even know about 72hz since it's not in edid.

Hmmmmm.... I hadn't considered the lifespan being affected by refresh rate.

I'm more worried about the loud click noise when the monitor switches to diff refreshrate.

Is that bad for the monitor?

I'm ok with using 1920x1080 85 for everything if it is..
 

spacediver

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Drop your refresh down to 72 hz for movies. Don't run the monitor higher than the recommended 85hz, as this will shorten its life.

EDIT: And fyi - FW900 will display 1920x1080 @72hz for HD movies natively.

When I run at 1920 x 1080, a chunk of the left side of my screen gets cut off, even when I adjust geometry.

I just run 1920x1200 and 1080p material plays fine with letterboxing. What would be the benefit of running the display at 1920x1080?
 

jbltecnicspro

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When I run at 1920 x 1080, a chunk of the left side of my screen gets cut off, even when I adjust geometry.

I just run 1920x1200 and 1080p material plays fine with letterboxing. What would be the benefit of running the display at 1920x1080?

Is this at 72hz? Mine cuts off at 85hz, but renders correctly at 72hz. It's a mode of the FW900. The only benefit of doing this is for the film purists out there, I'm guessing. It's 1080p, it's 72hz (evenly matches 24fps). But other than that - it's no different than running it at 1200p at 72hz too.

xln47862 - you'll need to make a custom resolution with your video card. Also - to get rid of the EDID, use BNC-5. FW900 is designed to do 1080p at 72hz for film.
 
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jbltecnicspro

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I'm not sure what you mean it will display 72hz natively, the monitor obeys the gfx card, and the gfx doesn't even know about 72hz since it's not in edid.

Hmmmmm.... I hadn't considered the lifespan being affected by refresh rate.

I'm more worried about the loud click noise when the monitor switches to diff refreshrate.

Is that bad for the monitor?

I'm ok with using 1920x1080 85 for everything if it is..

By "native," I mean that FW-900 has a 1080p mode built-in to it. As far as the "click" sound, don't worry. ALL tube monitors do this - every single one of them. With the refresh rate - running a monitor faster than recommended will shorten its life prematurely. Some people here like to push their FW900's up to 120hz. More power to you if you care, but be prepared to find another one in the not-too-distant future if you keep this up.
 

xln47862

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By "native," I mean that FW-900 has a 1080p mode built-in to it. As far as the "click" sound, don't worry. ALL tube monitors do this - every single one of them. With the refresh rate - running a monitor faster than recommended will shorten its life prematurely. Some people here like to push their FW900's up to 120hz. More power to you if you care, but be prepared to find another one in the not-too-distant future if you keep this up.

:D I realize that every tube mon does the loud click.. I just don't know if it's a "dangerous" sound..

You know how hard-drives are rated for a certain number of spin-ups.. I was asking if this sound is similar..

I think I will heed ur advice and lock everything to 19x12 85hz except for movies which I will push to 96..

I watch maybe 3 movies a week.. so.. that's only 5-6 hours per week @ 96hz..
 

spacediver

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Is this at 72hz? Mine cuts off at 85hz, but renders correctly at 72hz. It's a mode of the FW900. The only benefit of doing this is for the film purists out there, I'm guessing. It's 1080p, it's 72hz (evenly matches 24fps). But other than that - it's no different than running it at 1200p at 72hz too.

xln47862 - you'll need to make a custom resolution with your video card. Also - to get rid of the EDID, use BNC-5. FW900 is designed to do 1080p at 72hz for film.

turns out it wasn't sticking at 72 hz, but only 60 hz. I was able to get 72 hz by changing the timing to GTF (generalized timing formula), and it didn't crop the edge.

I still don't understand the advantage - the 72 hz thing I understand. But the 1080p?

When you run 1920x1200 and you run 1080p footage, I believe you're still getting pixel to pixel mapping of the footage (hence the letterbox).

Running 1920x1080 desktop means you'd have to manually letterbox your display with the geometry settings, else you'd get a vertical stretching effect.
 
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jbltecnicspro

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:D I realize that every tube mon does the loud click.. I just don't know if it's a "dangerous" sound..

You know how hard-drives are rated for a certain number of spin-ups.. I was asking if this sound is similar..

I think I will heed ur advice and lock everything to 19x12 85hz except for movies which I will push to 96..

I watch maybe 3 movies a week.. so.. that's only 5-6 hours per week @ 96hz..

You really should only do 72hz. 96 will wear it out more than 72 will. Just food for thought. You'd still be running in a multiple of 24 though, so 72 should look a-okay.
 

Kermie

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Your issue is WinDAS related, right? I'm not sure how much we can help. Do know that the version that's on the internet is cracked, and it may or may not have lost its integrity.

Well... I do have a couple of other editions I can try on my hard drive; I'll let you know if I get the same issue.
 

ZeosPantera

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It is certainly a relay clicking over so there will be a limit to how often it can do that. I don't change res or refresh for anybody.
 

jbltecnicspro

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jbltech, not sure if u saw my post a couple posts up - just bumping in case u missed it :p

Yeah, I saw it. Just didn't know how to respond late at night. Honestly, I think the mode is in there for compatibility's sake. It doesn't really make much sense for us with computers that can do 1920x1200, but I would imagine that some pro equipment that used BNC-5 would probably benefit from it. That's my speculation.
 

jbltecnicspro

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Alright folks. I've been mentally debating in my head whether or not the versions of WinDAS floating out there could be the cause of some of the incorrect readings of the monitor mode or not. My guess is that we need a SG to get the correct modes because when I finally nailed Mode 5 with the FW900 - it had a different geometry config than it normally does. But for kicks and giggles, and because I have another trinitron that I want to mess with and calibrate on my own (FW900 is going to Unkle Vito :D), I still want to make sure I'm doing it right.

So I'm going to download the WinDAS vanilla - this is the WinDAS that one would expect if Sony themselves sent it to you, run the crack, and see if it performs differently than the pre-cracked, pre-pacakged WinDAS's out there on the web. My goal here is to possibly continue what Gregua started and get some information out to the public on keeping these awesome screens alive and kicking.
 

spacediver

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that would be great jbl, I'm also curious about this. Please let us know your results!

My guess is that so long as you have the resolution, refresh, and pixel clock matched, then the mode is correct, even though it doesn't match. I could be well wrong though.

I'm guessing that when WinDAS asks you to change modes, the purpose is so that you can calibrate relative to those modes. So as long as you're calibrating an image based on the signal parameters that you're going to be operating under during normal conditions, you should be fine (and I would assume this includes sync polarity).

So, for example, if you're only going to run at 6500k, then I don't think it matters at all if you calibrate for the other color temperatures (although I like to do a equally good job with all of them just for the sake of thoroughness).

However, I'm not an expert, so this is just educated speculation.
 

spacediver

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Yeah, I saw it. Just didn't know how to respond late at night. Honestly, I think the mode is in there for compatibility's sake. It doesn't really make much sense for us with computers that can do 1920x1200, but I would imagine that some pro equipment that used BNC-5 would probably benefit from it. That's my speculation.

Where do you see that mode btw? I had to create a custom resolution to get that one.
 

LAGRUNAUER

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that would be great jbl, I'm also curious about this. Please let us know your results!

My guess is that so long as you have the resolution, refresh, and pixel clock matched, then the mode is correct, even though it doesn't match. I could be well wrong though.

I'm guessing that when WinDAS asks you to change modes, the purpose is so that you can calibrate relative to those modes. So as long as you're calibrating an image based on the signal parameters that you're going to be operating under during normal conditions, you should be fine (and I would assume this includes sync polarity).

So, for example, if you're only going to run at 6500k, then I don't think it matters at all if you calibrate for the other color temperatures (although I like to do a equally good job with all of them just for the sake of thoroughness).

However, I'm not an expert, so this is just educated speculation.


What are you are suggesting in this forum is cutting corners when performing these adjustments and it is it is the first NO NO when running the process. This is a quick way to corrupt the calibration effort and end up with garbage results...

To all enthusiasts venturing in the world of WinDAS/WinCATs... PLEASE DON'T DO THAT!!! DO NOT CUT CORNERS WHEN CALIBRATING AND ADJUSTING THE MONITORS. CALIBRATE AND ADJUST ALL THE PARAMETERS!!!! or just don't do it at all...

Hope this helps...

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!
 

spacediver

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Just re-measured the grayscale tracking on the p275, after letting monitor fully warm up.

Here are the results - they're quite good, considering I didn't spend that much time on the white point balance procedure. I think I could get it better with some more effort.

doa1pz.png


Vito, you keep mentioning that you get below 0.05% delta Es. This makes no sense whatsoever - delta E is not a percentage unit. Are you sure you weren't referring to delta xy?

Anything below a delta E of 3 is considered excellent.
 

spacediver

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What are you are suggesting in this forum is cutting corners when performing these adjustments and it is it is the first NO NO when running the process. This is a quick way to corrupt the calibration effort and end up with garbage results...

No, I'm not suggesting anything. I'm making careful speculations about how I believe the process may work. If you have any information that could constructively add to this, please do so.

So, for example, here is a question for you:

If you NEVER intend to use a color temperature of 5000K, and ALWAYS intend to use 6500K, why is it important to devote as much attention to the 5000K calibration portion as it is to the 6500K?

The 5000K calibration is only meant for 5000K mode - it has no bearing whatsoever on 6500K mode, correct?
 

jbltecnicspro

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No, I'm not suggesting anything. I'm making careful speculations about how I believe the process may work. If you have any information that could constructively add to this, please do so.

So, for example, here is a question for you:

If you NEVER intend to use a color temperature of 5000K, and ALWAYS intend to use 6500K, why is it important to devote as much attention to the 5000K calibration portion as it is to the 6500K?

The 5000K calibration is only meant for 5000K mode - it has no bearing whatsoever on 6500K mode, correct?

If I remember correctly, the monitor needs everything to be correct with the WinDAS procedure because it takes the settings and approximates its own sRGB mode using those measurements. In other words, once you get 6500k and 9300k and 5000k, it then calculates its own sRGB mode with those settings.

While what you're saying about calibrating to only the color temperature you use may be true to an extent, I think this is a bad idea. If there's anything I've learned from logging hours with WinDAS - it's that CRT monitors are very holistic. You can't just set one thing on a CRT and not have it affect something else - even if the two are seemingly unrelated. Keep in mind too, that CRT's change over time. Your monitor was designed to run at a ton of color temperatures and modes. At the very least, setting whitepoint balance for all temperatures that WinDAS asks would ensure your CRT is kept at a healthy state.

While I think it's fantastic that you are learning how to set the whitepoint balance and all (really, that's amazing), I think that once you're ready for the final calibration, that it would be wise to do it all.
 

spacediver

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If I remember correctly, the monitor needs everything to be correct with the WinDAS procedure because it takes the settings and approximates its own sRGB mode using those measurements. In other words, once you get 6500k and 9300k and 5000k, it then calculates its own sRGB mode with those settings.

yep, that's a good point.

While what you're saying about calibrating to only the color temperature you use may be true to an extent, I think this is a bad idea. If there's anything I've learned from logging hours with WinDAS - it's that CRT monitors are very holistic. You can't just set one thing on a CRT and not have it affect something else - even if the two are seemingly unrelated.

This may be the case, but I'd like to understand the exact interdependencies before making that assumption.


Keep in mind too, that CRT's change over time. Your monitor was designed to run at a ton of color temperatures and modes. At the very least, setting whitepoint balance for all temperatures that WinDAS asks would ensure your CRT is kept at a healthy state.

If I were only interested in using 6500K (which is the standard for video), then I'm not convinced that this is the case. It MAY be the case, but again, I'd like to hear how.


While I think it's fantastic that you are learning how to set the whitepoint balance and all (really, that's amazing), I think that once you're ready for the final calibration, that it would be wise to do it all.

Oh, and I do intend to - don't get me wrong. I just like to understand everything too. Even if I were convinced that the holistic thing doesn't exist, I'd still calibrate it all just because I'm a perfectionist. But I think it's important to have a theoretical understanding of the issues in order to make informed decisions.
 
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