24" Widescreen CRT (FW900) From Ebay arrived,Comments.

Myramond

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Sadly the blur problem was extending after few hours of work (so blurred i wasn't able to read any text) . Next on the line is that 7 euro IBM trinitron tube.

Do you mean the picture gets blurry after some time? If so then try turning off the monitor if this happens, wait for 20 seconds and turn it back on.
 

paradox404

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Sep 25, 2013
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This is exactly what happened @Myramond, extremely blurred picture, turning it off would solve the problem for a while. The other problem this monitor has is ghosting :/ Tried with few different BNC and VGA cables but still the same.
 

ZeosPantera

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OK, Switched my DVI-VGA adapter and 4' BNC cable to a 10' DVI-i Extension and a DVI-I to BNC and now I am getting some 3/16" ghosts to the right of anything with high contrast.

I use to get this with bad DVI to VGA adapters and unfortunately I can't swap out the $40 DVI to BNC I bought.

Will a Magnetic Choke(s) on the wire help what is going on or is this just something I will have to live with?
 

Ashratt

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This is exactly what happened @Myramond, extremely blurred picture, turning it off would solve the problem for a while. The other problem this monitor has is ghosting :/ Tried with few different BNC and VGA cables but still the same.
did you try to adjust it with the focus pots on top? you can reach them without opening the case

@zeos: magnetic chokes (i know them as ferrit cores?) do help but i kinda doubt that it is because of the cable. I use a 15$ DVI-I to BNC cable and have no ghosting (only the normal phosphor lag although i am not sure if mine is normal; it is very noticeable in dark games)
 

LAGRUNAUER

Gawd
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745

LAGRUNAUER

Gawd
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745
did you try to adjust it with the focus pots on top? you can reach them without opening the case

@zeos: magnetic chokes (i know them as ferrit cores?) do help but i kinda doubt that it is because of the cable. I use a 15$ DVI-I to BNC cable and have no ghosting (only the normal phosphor lag although i am not sure if mine is normal; it is very noticeable in dark games)


Most likely the unit has a faulty FBT. Adjusting the two (2) FBT knobs may not fix the problem.

Replace the D board (easier process rather than de-soldering/soldering the FBT), then adjust the focus knobs using a MEME pattern to properly align the image.

Hope this helps...

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!
 

LAGRUNAUER

Gawd
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745
Sadly the blur problem was extending after few hours of work (so blurred i wasn't able to read any text) . Next on the line is that 7 euro IBM trinitron tube.

Most likely you have a faulty FBT. Adjusting the two (2) FBT knobs may not fix the problem.

Replace the D board (easier process rather than de-soldering/soldering the FBT), then adjust the focus knobs using a MEME pattern to properly align the image.

Hope this helps...

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!
 

LAGRUNAUER

Gawd
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Dec 7, 2006
Messages
745
A question - my FW900 has some geometry issues that I can't seem to resolve through the OSD - or WinDAS. Is it possible that a CRT may have gone so long without calibration to be permanently disfigured? How can I resolve this issue? It seems that if I adjust the landing far enough, the shape restores but the colors are off. How can I fix this?

What geometry issues does the image of your unit have? Please be specific...

Landing is not a geometry adjusting procedure. It is a procedure to resolve color irregularities due to magnetization (which degaussing cannot resolve) of the tube, usually at the corners. This usually occurs if the CRT is hit, dropped, or exposed to heavy external magnetic fields.

If the tube does not exhibit any color irregularities issues due to magnetization, then landing should be left alone.

Hope this helps...

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!
 

spacediver

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Hey Vito,

thought you'd be interested to know: I did some precalibration runs on the fw900 with both an i1 pro and a DTP-94 (using HCFR). The DTP-94 tracked remarkably well to the i1 pro. Based on the discussion I had, it is likely that the DTP 94 (in crt mode) has been calibrated to the sony BVM reference phosphors, and apparently the FW900 has the same phosphors as the BVM line. This would account for the excellent precision the DTP 94 has with this monitor.

I've posted the results here:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1492757/some-data-from-i1-pro-vs-unprofiled-dtp-94-on-sony-gdm-fw900
 
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jbltecnicspro

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So spacediver, is the DTP 94 a good meter to do a white balance adjust on?

Vito - I'll take a picture.
 
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spacediver

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So spacediver, is the DTP 94 a good meter to do a white balance adjust on?

doing a white point balance (same as grayscale adjustment) requires the ability to measure chromaticity at various levels of luminance. I believe (but am not sure) that WinDAS employs a two point grayscale adjustment (30 and 80 %). The OSD definitely allows a two point grayscale adjustment (using the RGB gain and RGB offset controls).

Yes, the DTP-94 would be very good on this CRT, assuming your DTP-94 hasn't drifted or degraded (and it's known for its durability).

If you do end up with a colorimeter, I would first measure the primaries, and then compare them with what we know about the FW900 primaries. If they match well, then it means your meter is measuring chromaticity very well. From what I understand, the phosphors used in the FW900 have very little variance between units, so it's unlikely that you should have very different readings from another display.

For example, here are my measured primaries (using both i1 pro and DTP 94):

25f6qzr.png


and here is what some other researchers measured them as (ref):

11scnr5.png
 

LAGRUNAUER

Gawd
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745
Hey Vito,

thought you'd be interested to know: I did some precalibration runs on the fw900 with both an i1 pro and a DTP-94 (using HCFR). The DTP-94 tracked remarkably well to the i1 pro. Based on the discussion I had, it is likely that the DTP 94 (in crt mode) has been calibrated to the sony BVM reference phosphors, and apparently the FW900 has the same phosphors as the BVM line. This would account for the excellent precision the DTP 94 has with this monitor.

I've posted the results here:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1492757/some-data-from-i1-pro-vs-unprofiled-dtp-94-on-sony-gdm-fw900

We couldn't make the DTP-94 work with the HCFR program. We had the correct drivers but the program kept giving errors and would not recognize the instrument.

Unkle Vito!
 

jbltecnicspro

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doing a white point balance (same as grayscale adjustment) requires the ability to measure chromaticity at various levels of luminance. I believe (but am not sure) that WinDAS employs a two point grayscale adjustment (30 and 80 %). The OSD definitely allows a two point grayscale adjustment (using the RGB gain and RGB offset controls).

Yes, the DTP-94 would be very good on this CRT, assuming your DTP-94 hasn't drifted or degraded (and it's known for its durability).

If you do end up with a colorimeter, I would first measure the primaries, and then compare them with what we know about the FW900 primaries. If they match well, then it means your meter is measuring chromaticity very well. From what I understand, the phosphors used in the FW900 have very little variance between units, so it's unlikely that you should have very different readings from another display.

For example, here are my measured primaries (using both i1 pro and DTP 94):

25f6qzr.png


and here is what some other researchers measured them as (ref):

11scnr5.png


Unfortunately, it's a little technical for me to do a once-over at work on lunch and understand what's exactly going on. I guess my question is - is getting a decent used one on Ebay a good route to getting my screens adjusted for good white point balance? Thanks for reporting back to us though. :D
 

spacediver

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We couldn't make the DTP-94 work with the HCFR program. We had the correct drivers but the program kept giving errors and would not recognize the instrument.

Unkle Vito!

I found that I needed to do a few things to get it to work:

1: use the argyll drivers for the instrument
2: I think u need to copy a dll file to the main HCFR directory. I forget the name right now, but it ends with III.dll. I can send u the file later if you like
3: in HCFR, there are two types of DTP94 I had the option of selecting: "xrite dtp94" and "dtp94". I believe you have to choose the "dtp 94" to get it to work.
 

spacediver

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Unfortunately, it's a little technical for me to do a once-over at work on lunch and understand what's exactly going on. I guess my question is - is getting a decent used one on Ebay a good route to getting my screens adjusted for good white point balance? Thanks for reporting back to us though. :D

Yes, based on my understanding and experience, it should be, so long as the instrument isn't faulty or damaged. And again, I can only speak for the FW900. For other displays I would not be as confident.
 

jbltecnicspro

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Yes, based on my understanding and experience, it should be, so long as the instrument isn't faulty or damaged. And again, I can only speak for the FW900. For other displays I would not be as confident.

Well, I'm only really calibrating Sony screens it seems, so I should be good. :D Also - there are a few on Ebay for varying prices. Which one did you get?
 

spacediver

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Well, I'm only really calibrating Sony screens it seems, so I should be good. :D Also - there are a few on Ebay for varying prices. Which one did you get?

Mine was listed as "X-Rite DTP94 Monaco Optix XR Monitor Display Calibration..." for just under $60

I got it back in April of this year.
 

spacediver

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Well, I'm only really calibrating Sony screens it seems, so I should be good. :D

Not all sonys use the same phosphor sets. There is the P22, the EBU, the SMPTE-C. I believe the sony BVMs used the SMPTE-C's (and I think the FW900 also).

What kind of displays are you working with?
 

LAGRUNAUER

Gawd
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745
I found that I needed to do a few things to get it to work:

1: use the argyll drivers for the instrument
2: I think u need to copy a dll file to the main HCFR directory. I forget the name right now, but it ends with III.dll. I can send u the file later if you like
3: in HCFR, there are two types of DTP94 I had the option of selecting: "xrite dtp94" and "dtp94". I believe you have to choose the "dtp 94" to get it to work.

Please go ahead and send me anything you think we may need to get this program to work. I can be reached at unklevito at aol dot com.

Thanks so much in advance!

Unkle Vito!
 

spacediver

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P991 and FW900 and FW520

By FW520 I presume you mean the CPD-G520. I believe the P991 is a rebranded CPD-G520.

Based on my research, the CPD-G520 uses the P22 phospor set. This designation is vague, however, as it merely refers to a class of phosphors. Additionally, the tolerances of the P22's are much higher than the SMPTE-C phosphors.

Tell you what: I have an IBM p275 (which I believe is also a rebranded CPD-G520) lying around. I'll run some tests in the near future, and tell you whether the DTP-94 is accurate on that display. That should give you some confidence.
 

jbltecnicspro

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By FW520 I presume you mean the CPD-G520. I believe the P991 is a rebranded CPD-G520.

Based on my research, the CPD-G520 uses the P22 phospor set. This designation is vague, however, as it merely refers to a class of phosphors. Additionally, the tolerances of the P22's are much higher than the SMPTE-C phosphors.

Tell you what: I have an IBM p275 (which I believe is also a rebranded CPD-G520) lying around. I'll run some tests in the near future, and tell you whether the DTP-94 is accurate on that display. That should give you some confidence.

Sweet! Thanks! By FW-520, I mean the 900's little brother. 21 inch, .22mm dot pitch. I don't have one yet, but I'd love one. :)
 

LAGRUNAUER

Gawd
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Sweet! Thanks! By FW-520, I mean the 900's little brother. 21 inch, .22mm dot pitch. I don't have one yet, but I'd love one. :)

There is no FW520... The GDM-FW900's little brother is the GDM-F520.

The GDM-F520 and the GDM-F500R were the only two Sony productions trinitrons with .22 aperture grille tubes that I know of.

The Sony CPD-G520 is not the same unit and it has a different chassis, tube, and circuitry than the GDM-F520. Also, both units are not the same as the CPD-G520P. The Sony GDM-C520 has the best CRT trinitron of all them all and is was intended for color accuracy, matching and rendition. The GDM-FW900 and the F520 were intended to be graphic monitors for CAD/CAM/CAE and 3D animation/rendering. Also, these three monitors can be used for gaming, and the GDM-C520 will reproduce the best colors and blacks of all them all.

Hope this helps...

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!
 

jbltecnicspro

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There is no FW520... The GDM-FW900's little brother is the GDM-F520.

The GDM-F520 and the GDM-F500R were the only two Sony productions trinitrons with .22 aperture grille tubes that I know of.

The Sony CPD-G520 is not the same unit and it has a different chassis, tube, and circuitry than the GDM-F520. Also, both units are not the same as the CPD-G520P. The Sony GDM-C520 has the best CRT trinitron of all them all and is was intended for color accuracy, matching and rendition. The GDM-FW900 and the F520 were intended to be graphic monitors for CAD/CAM/CAE and 3D animation/rendering. Also, these three monitors can be used for gaming, and the GDM-C520 will reproduce the best colors and blacks of all them all.

Hope this helps...

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!

Thanks - I meant F520 - not FW520. :D
 

SH1

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There is no FW520... The GDM-FW900's little brother is the GDM-F520.

The GDM-F520 and the GDM-F500R were the only two Sony productions trinitrons with .22 aperture grille tubes that I know of.

The Sony CPD-G520 is not the same unit and it has a different chassis, tube, and circuitry than the GDM-F520. Also, both units are not the same as the CPD-G520P. The Sony GDM-C520 has the best CRT trinitron of all them all and is was intended for color accuracy, matching and rendition. The GDM-FW900 and the F520 were intended to be graphic monitors for CAD/CAM/CAE and 3D animation/rendering. Also, these three monitors can be used for gaming, and the GDM-C520 will reproduce the best colors and blacks of all them all.

Hope this helps...

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!

Yes...but GDM-F520 was also used in color matching (all of mine had been secondarily QC'd, certified, and headed for this application before I got them NOS surplus) and had the world beating 0.22 pitch. One could have their general purpose cake and still be able to eat a goodly color portion of it too... :)

(The availability of a general purpose, does everything well, type of display something I hope we finally get back to with OLED somehow...)
 
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ZeosPantera

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OK, Switched my DVI-VGA adapter and 4' BNC cable to a 10' DVI-i Extension and a DVI-I to BNC and now I am getting some 3/16" ghosts to the right of anything with high contrast.

I use to get this with bad DVI to VGA adapters and unfortunately I can't swap out the $40 DVI to BNC I bought.

Will a Magnetic Choke(s) on the wire help what is going on or is this just something I will have to live with?

@zeos: magnetic chokes (i know them as ferrit cores?) do help but i kinda doubt that it is because of the cable. I use a 15$ DVI-I to BNC cable and have no ghosting (only the normal phosphor lag although i am not sure if mine is normal; it is very noticeable in dark games)

My issue is definitely cable/connection related. I wonder if this new path past my power strip has anything to do with the ghosts. I put a ferrite core around the 5 smallish coax leading to the bnc's. Didn't seem to do much. Perhaps moving it to the end of the DVI cable instead.
 

LAGRUNAUER

Gawd
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Yes...but GDM-F520 was also used in color matching (all of mine had been secondarily QC'd, certified, and headed for this application before I got them NOS surplus) and had the world beating 0.22 pitch. One could have their general purpose cake and still be able to eat a goodly color portion of it too... :)

(The availability of a general purpose, does everything well, type of display something I hope we finally get back to with OLED somehow...)

You can use any Premier Pro CRT Sony monitor properly calibrated and adjusted to Sony factory specs for color matching, but it doesn't mean that the unit was specifically designed for that purpose.

For color trained individuals, there is a big difference between displayed images with "rich and pretty bright and vibrant colors" vs. displayed color accurate images.

Hope this helps...

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!
 

spacediver

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If you had a GDM-C520 (artisan), calibrated to Rec. 709, and compared it to a GDM-F520, also calibrated to Rec. 709, wouldn't the GDM-F520 have a better picture due to the 0.22 dot pitch?

I understand the artisan has an integrated color reference system that can automatically calibrate using the bundled probe, and that is one of its assets, but if you put in the time, and had the right measuring equipment and software, couldn't you achieve the same results on the GDM-F520?

Or is there something about the actual tube quality/phosphor that separates it from the other GDMs?
 

LAGRUNAUER

Gawd
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If you had a GDM-C520 (artisan), calibrated to Rec. 709, and compared it to a GDM-F520, also calibrated to Rec. 709, wouldn't the GDM-F520 have a better picture due to the 0.22 dot pitch?

I understand the artisan has an integrated color reference system that can automatically calibrate using the bundled probe, and that is one of its assets, but if you put in the time, and had the right measuring equipment and software, couldn't you achieve the same results on the GDM-F520?

Or is there something about the actual tube quality/phosphor that separates it from the other GDMs?

The .22 aperture grille vs. .24 aperture grille makes no difference when viewing images/photographs for color correction/matching. What makes a difference is, like I stated before, the CRT; and the quality of the Artisan's CRT which is superior to the F520, for that particular use. Again, that is my opinion based on my results.

I do have a prototype GDM-C520 which was assembled with a high grade .22 aperture grille CRT, but because of its high cost of manufacturing among others, Sony opted for the high grade .24 aperture grille instead.

In the end... Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder...

Hope this helps...

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!
 

jbltecnicspro

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^^ Now that would be awesome to see. I assume you're going to hold on to it for life? Vito - how much are your F520 monitors? Or would you rather that be discussed in PM?
 

SH1

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The .22 aperture grille vs. .24 aperture grille makes no difference when viewing images/photographs for color correction/matching. What makes a difference is, like I stated before, the CRT; and the quality of the Artisan's CRT which is superior to the F520, for that particular use. Again, that is my opinion based on my results.

I do have a prototype GDM-C520 which was assembled with a high grade .22 aperture grille CRT, but because of its high cost of manufacturing among others, Sony opted for the high grade .24 aperture grille instead.

In the end... Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder...

Hope this helps...

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!

Unkle Vito -- I'm still unclear as to whether you are saying that the GDM-C520 has different phosphors or such versus the rest of the final GDM line.

From what I recall of reviews at the time (and on Displaymate's site to this day), the GDM-F520 is the finest overall aperture grill computer monitor ever released. With the GDM-C520 being Sony's optimum solution for the specific purpose of a color correction/mapping workflow, principally on the basis of its integrated calibration solution...
 

LAGRUNAUER

Gawd
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Unkle Vito -- I'm still unclear as to whether you are saying that the GDM-C520 has different phosphors or such versus the rest of the final GDM line.

From what I recall of reviews at the time (and on Displaymate's site to this day), the GDM-F520 is the finest overall aperture grill computer monitor ever released. With the GDM-C520 being Sony's optimum solution for the specific purpose of a color correction/mapping workflow, principally on the basis of its integrated calibration solution...

The GDM-C520 has a different tube than the GDM-F520. It is different in ALL ASPECTS!

For some, the GDM-F520 was the best CRT ever made... For some, the GDM-FW900 was the best CRT ever made... For some, the GDM-C520 was the best CRT ever made...

Like I said, any Trinitron CRT can be used for CAD/CAM/CAE, 3D, and engineering as well as photo/color matching/correction. Some will perform better than others, but ultimately "Beauty is in the Eyes of the Beholder...".

Hope this helps...

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!
 

spacediver

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not yet, I want to do some more chromaticity tests on the fw900 before I get round to setting up the p991. I'll report back soon hopefully :)
 

spacediver

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yea, i want to see how well the sRGB preset is calibrated. If it is well calibrated, the primaries should measure differently than they do in Expert mode. I think Expert mode uses the native color space, whereas sRGB will try to transform the inputs into the sRGB space.
 

spacediver

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yes, but only using the OSD in expert mode. I've not yet experimented with WinDAS. Want to get a laptop before I go down that path.
 
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