24" Widescreen CRT (FW900) From Ebay arrived,Comments.

Meeho

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As I've mentioned earlier, I've done the WinDAS calibration, but the result was quite bad. I don't really know why, though. I've set the values till my meter read what was needed and at the end of D65 step it was great, but by the time I finished it would mess it all up. Uncke Vito mentioned one of the guns could be faulty. I would expect that that would be seen by the monitor from the values I was inputing in WinDAS and if I needed to tune some value more it would see it had to apply more voltage here, less there, etc. But I guess it doesn't work that way.
 

jbltecnicspro

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Am I to assume that white point balance is pretty heavy on the tube then? I may do my dump monitor white balance by sight tonight, but it's really a shot in the dark. Seriously, without a reader it's just guesswork at that point. But if I remember, it DID get rid of the red hue. Shame that P991 won't let you adjust the color using the OSD.
 

spacediver

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I don't see why doing a white point balance would be heavy on the tube. I can see how rejuvenating the tube on extreme settings, multiple times, would be heavy on the tube, but not a white point adjustment. I suppose if one of the guns has very low emission, and you correct for this by doing a white point adjustment, so that the weak gun has to work even harder, then it'll wear out the gun faster, but assuming your guns are all in good condition, I don't see it being a problem.

But I could well be wrong.

you sure there is no expert color control mode on the p991?
 

jbltecnicspro

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I don't see why doing a white point balance would be heavy on the tube. I can see how rejuvenating the tube on extreme settings, multiple times, would be heavy on the tube, but not a white point adjustment. I suppose if one of the guns has very low emission, and you correct for this by doing a white point adjustment, so that the weak gun has to work even harder, then it'll wear out the gun faster, but assuming your guns are all in good condition, I don't see it being a problem.

But I could well be wrong.

you sure there is no expert color control mode on the p991?

I'm sure - there is none. Just the normal temp adjustment. :(
 

LAGRUNAUER

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As I've mentioned earlier, I've done the WinDAS calibration, but the result was quite bad. I don't really know why, though. I've set the values till my meter read what was needed and at the end of D65 step it was great, but by the time I finished it would mess it all up. Uncke Vito mentioned one of the guns could be faulty. I would expect that that would be seen by the monitor from the values I was inputing in WinDAS and if I needed to tune some value more it would see it had to apply more voltage here, less there, etc. But I guess it doesn't work that way.

How are you setting the values? Which specific instrumentation and equipment are you using? Are you performing the entire process (all white balance reference points - there are three plus sRGB which is automatic - without skipping steps? Did you check the guns, tube shorts, emission of the CRT before you started the process?

Please comment...

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!
 

LAGRUNAUER

Gawd
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btw regarding signal generators vs software, this thread proved to be very interesting:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1490476/software-simulation-of-video-signal-generator-for-crt

I respectfully and politely would appreciate if my comments shared with all of you on this forum not to be linked and/or shared on other forums.

As I asked you before, I do not want to engage anyone on differences of opinon, knowledge or experience. My only purpose on HardForum is to humbly educate and shared knowledge, and not to get in heated discussions with people who think they know what they are talking about but in actuality they have very little and/or no knowledge and they are just running out their mouths.

If this continues, I will stop posting on this forum.

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!
 

Meeho

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How are you setting the values? Which specific instrumentation and equipment are you using? Are you performing the entire process (all white balance reference points - there are three plus sRGB which is automatic - without skipping steps? Did you check the guns, tube shorts, emission of the CRT before you started the process?

I'm using X-Rite i1 Display2 and HCFR for generating black, white and IRE30. Display set at 1920x1200@85Hz, Windows profiles unloaded, LUT adjustments removed.

I'm perfoming the entire process without skipping steps. When I get to D65 calibration and finish it to the step where you check white point consistency regarding contrast and brightness, I run a greyscale and RGB measurement for the whole IRE range in HCFR. The results are good at that point. White point is consistent and only minor RGB offset at IRE0 and IRE10.

But...after I continue in WinDAS and set D50 and sRGB and finish the whole procedure, something gets changed. Suddenly RED gets sky high at lower IRE levels and white point starts really low and only gets to 6500K near the end.

Why is this happening? Why doesn't it stay at the settings that are active right after D65 steps in WinDAS?


Unfortunately, I am unaware of anyone in my country that could do a proper diagnostics on FW900 and I have no expertise to do it myself.
 

LAGRUNAUER

Gawd
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I'm using X-Rite i1 Display2 and HCFR for generating black, white and IRE30. Display set at 1920x1200@85Hz, Windows profiles unloaded, LUT adjustments removed.

I'm perfoming the entire process without skipping steps. When I get to D65 calibration and finish it to the step where you check white point consistency regarding contrast and brightness, I run a greyscale and RGB measurement for the whole IRE range in HCFR. The results are good at that point. White point is consistent and only minor RGB offset at IRE0 and IRE10.

But...after I continue in WinDAS and set D50 and sRGB and finish the whole procedure, something gets changed. Suddenly RED gets sky high at lower IRE levels and white point starts really low and only gets to 6500K near the end.

Why is this happening? Why doesn't it stay at the settings that are active right after D65 steps in WinDAS?


Unfortunately, I am unaware of anyone in my country that could do a proper diagnostics on FW900 and I have no expertise to do it myself.

For what are you describing, and without running a full diagnose before WinDAS/WinCAT calibration and adjustment process starts, it appears that your monitor may have a bad gun(s). If you can get a hold of a CR-70 or a CR-7000, check the CRT for gun integrity, emissions, and shorts. If you get a fault in any of these modes, then the CRT is the problem.

Hope this helps...

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!
 

jbltecnicspro

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For what are you describing, and without running a full diagnose before WinDAS/WinCAT calibration and adjustment process starts, it appears that your monitor may have a bad gun(s). If you can get a hold of a CR-70 or a CR-7000, check the CRT for gun integrity, emissions, and shorts. If you get a fault in any of these modes, then the CRT is the problem.

Hope this helps...

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!

On that note - what does the "FAIL" procedure do in WinDAS? Everything except for one value on the LOG1 (I think - I'm going off memory here) returns a "Normal" value. I think the one that doesn't say normal starts with an 'A' - I think... ABL? I'll need to run it again.

EDIT: On an unrelated note - I think I would dig the GDM-520 display range more than the 900. Apparently it has the same pixel pitch throughout the screen and is more sharp? Vito - could you comment? Thanks for all the great info! :)
 
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LAGRUNAUER

Gawd
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On that note - what does the "FAIL" procedure do in WinDAS? Everything except for one value on the LOG1 (I think - I'm going off memory here) returns a "Normal" value. I think the one that doesn't say normal starts with an 'A' - I think... ABL? I'll need to run it again.

EDIT: On an unrelated note - I think I would dig the GDM-520 display range more than the 900. Apparently it has the same pixel pitch throughout the screen and is more sharp? Vito - could you comment? Thanks for all the great info! :)

On WinDAS, any type of failures messages in the "FAILURE SHUTDOWN_LOG" are usually indications of unit malfunctions. For instance, scan failure shutdowns by the Microprocessor Control Unit (MCU) of the monitor due to loss of horizontal flyback will cause an "H Stop" failure, whereas a loss of vertical retrace will cause a "V Stop" failure. ABL (Automatic Balance Limiter) issues are either shutdowns by the MCU and/or the circuitry. A thermal protection shutdown will cause a "THERMAL" failure message.

In simple terns, issues with the CRT and/or internal components will trigger failures on WinDAS. Pinpointing the issue(s) for corrective action is a tedious process of elimination, and in your specific case I would start by testing the CRT for bad gun(s), low emission, and shorts, before moving on to major components such as the FBT, PSU and boards.

About the GDM-F520, is the "little brother" of the FW900, but with a 0.22 aperture grille vs. 0.24-0.27 aperture grille, it is sharper and crispier than the FW900. There are other major differences (resolution, aspect ratio, screen viable area, etc). For gaming, "Beauty is in the Eyes of the Beholder"... For some, size does matter, and for others, a crispier and sharper picture matters...

Hope this helps...

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!
 
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jbltecnicspro

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Thanks Vito. Should I test the tube if only one of the two shutdown log's have the ABL failure? Can outside power quality affect this as well? My apartment does not have good power. For example, I used to have a pair of AudioEngine A5's that would crackle every time we used the paper shredder.

And yes - I'm definitely one for a sharper image. Vito - I also notice on your ebay page that you have the 520 artisan. Do you also stock A+ "regular" 520's? How exactly does the calibration device on the Artisan work? Does it work through the 4-pin connector? Alright - I think I've asked enough questions for now. Once again - thanks for all your information. I really wish I was trained in CRT repair.
 

spacediver

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I've been getting interested in learning more about the phosphors used on the FW900, in order to get a sense of the RGB primaries. While specific information is hard to come by, I have found some good information.

First off, a list of phosphors used in CRTs, along with their chemical composition and color coordinates. I'm not sure whether this list is exhaustive.

http://www.phosphor-technology.com/products/crt.htm

I think the trinitrons used the p22 set (the blue, green, and red) but not 100% sure. Once I open up the chassis, there may be a sticker with more information.

Second up, an evaluation of the FW900, which includes color coordinates of the phosphor:

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=ADA415156

Here is a table where they list the color coordinates of the monitor. I'm not sure whether this is measured, or based on specifications:

2lviq6w.png


At the end of the paper, however, they have this:

a3gzrq.png


What I don't understand is how the measurement of the primaries seems to depend on which color temperature preset is used. That should make no difference based on my understanding.

Finally, I found a few research papers that used the FW900 in their experiments. Some of these were interested in color perception, and indicated that they had measured the spectral signatures of the three phosphors. Only one of these papers included the CIE x and y coordinates, although they did not indicate how they made this measurement.

The paper is not open access, and there is no free version floating around, but I don't think it's too wrong to share one of the tables

w0jfc0.png


reference: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15518220

The measurements from this last paper match the values in table II.22.1 from the first document, with the exception of the red CIE x value being 0.62 vs 0.602. It's possible that one of the papers made a typographical error, as the rest of the values match with much better precision.

I've just ordered an i1 pro, and will be making similar measurements, and will share what I find when I do so.
 

LAGRUNAUER

Gawd
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Thanks Vito. Should I test the tube if only one of the two shutdown log's have the ABL failure? Can outside power quality affect this as well? My apartment does not have good power. For example, I used to have a pair of AudioEngine A5's that would crackle every time we used the paper shredder.

And yes - I'm definitely one for a sharper image. Vito - I also notice on your ebay page that you have the 520 artisan. Do you also stock A+ "regular" 520's? How exactly does the calibration device on the Artisan work? Does it work through the 4-pin connector? Alright - I think I've asked enough questions for now. Once again - thanks for all your information. I really wish I was trained in CRT repair.

The CRT should be tested every time a WinDAS/WinCAT calibration is to be performed. Power failures caused by power sources can damage the monitor and will cause malfunctions.

We do stock brand new Sony GDM-C520 Artisan and Grade A GDM-F520s; and the Color Reference System (CRS) on the Artisan still one of the industry standard color correction/calibration systems and one of the best system ever produced. It was developed by Dr. Karl Lang, who is also the father of the Radius PressView monitor.

The CRS program does not work on Windows XP 64-bit, Windows Vista, Windows 7 or 8, or Mac OS 10.7.x or 10.8.x, but there are practical workarounds for producing ICC profiles in 64-bit operating systems (PC or Mac), which will enable the user to manually load these profiles on Windows and Mac OS. I fully explain them in the guidelines which are sent with the monitors to my customers.

The Color Sensor (puck), which was made by Sequel Imaging, Inc. (The owners and most of the staff ended up working for Gretag Macbeth when they were bought out back on 2003 and then for X-Rite when they bought out Gretag Macbeth in 2006), is a very accurate instrument which can work with other color calibration software programs such as basICColor (we made successful trials) in all 64-bit Operating Systems.

The Color Sensor (puck) is a USB device, and the monitor has an special digital video cable with a USB pigtail that also needs to be connected to the workstation in order for the Color Reference Program to recognize both devices. The calibration process is fully automated and it will produce an accurate ICC profile from either default settings or from custom settings.

Hope this helps...

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!
 

jbltecnicspro

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It helps a ton. Man - that sounds very cool. And as for 64-bit OS's running older applications - I keep Windows XP specifically for that purpose. :) Vito - if I was to get a Sencore CR-70 (that has all accessories and manuals) - could I do a correct test procedure on my FW900?
 

LAGRUNAUER

Gawd
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It helps a ton. Man - that sounds very cool. And as for 64-bit OS's running older applications - I keep Windows XP specifically for that purpose. :) Vito - if I was to get a Sencore CR-70 (that has all accessories and manuals) - could I do a correct test procedure on my FW900?

If you know what you are doing, of course you can... If you set up the CR-70 parameters incorrectly and/or use the wrong adapter and/or do not know how to select the correct tube then you will burn the tube and ruin it beyond repair.

Hope this helps...

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!
 

jbltecnicspro

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If you know what you are doing, of course you can... If you set up the CR-70 parameters incorrectly and/or use the wrong adapter and/or do not know how to select the correct tube then you will burn the tube and ruin it beyond repair.

Hope this helps...

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!

Will the owner's manual ensure that I do it correctly?
 

spacediver

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http://www.ko4bb.com/Manuals/09)_Misc_Test_Equipment/Sencore/Sencore_CR70_Operation_Manual.pdf

also read randy fromm's article on the sencore CR7000, which may provide insights.

http://www.thegleam.com/ke5fx/crt/sencrt.pdf


At the bottom of his article is a nice piece of information:

FREE VIDEO TAPE AND TECHNICAL NEWSLETTER
A very informative videotape on CRT failures is available from Sencore. Ask for Tech Tape #861A. The tape is free. Sencore's toil-free number is (800)SENCORE. The address is 3200 Sencore Drive, Sioux Falls, SD 57107. They have a website at http://www.sencore.com. Ask to be put on their mailing list and you'll receive a free subscription to Sencore's technical newsletter on troubleshooting monitors and VCRs. Please tell them Randy Fromm at Play Meter Magazine recommended you call.


nothing beats experience though - dammit i wish I was wealthier and could fly over to Vito for some 1on1 mentoring :)

That would be a good use of money if I had it.
 
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LAGRUNAUER

Gawd
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745
http://www.ko4bb.com/Manuals/09)_Misc_Test_Equipment/Sencore/Sencore_CR70_Operation_Manual.pdf

also read randy fromm's article on the sencore CR7000, which may provide insights.

http://www.thegleam.com/ke5fx/crt/sencrt.pdf


At the bottom of his article is a nice piece of information:




nothing beats experience though - dammit i wish I was wealthier and could fly over to Vito for some 1on1 mentoring :)

That would be a good use of money if I had it.

Thanks for your praises and comments!

If I am not mistaken, a while back, Sencore discontinued supporting CRT testing instrumentation and training, and also discontinue production of video testing equipment. A group of Sencore Engineers started SpectralCAL and now they are the one of the leaders of display calibration technology and solutions.

I have an excellent relation with the Sencore folks. They are super professionals!

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!
 

LAGRUNAUER

Gawd
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745
In what sense? There's only one version of the GDM-F520.

Actually there are two versions... One was the "production" version with its .22 tube, and the other was the "prototype" version which had a lower aperture grille rumored to be less than .20!

There were several pre-production versions of the GDM line of monitors, after the form factor changed to flat screens in 2000. For instance, I have a 24" version of the Sony GDM-C520 Artisan, and a Sony CPD-G520P prototype, which is a "spin-off" of the 21" production Sony GDM-C520 Artisan without the programmed A1 board to read the CRS and the Color Sensor, and you can very well call it Pre-Artisan.

Hope this helps...

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!
 
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SH1

[H]ard|Gawd
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"...a 24" version of the Sony GDM-C520 Artisan..."

Also 0.24 pitch and 4:3 aspect ratio?

One of the tragedies of CRT's premature demise is certainly that we never got to see Sony's final advances in production... :(
 

LAGRUNAUER

Gawd
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you cannot say such things without providing a photograph. That is CRUEL :)

Is there any way in which the FW900 is better than this 24 inch artisan? How many exist!?

Believe me, I do have one of the "prototypes", as well as other "prototypes" in our lab...

Unkle Vito!
 

LAGRUNAUER

Gawd
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"...a 24" version of the Sony GDM-C520 Artisan..."

Also 0.24 pitch and 4:3 aspect ratio?

One of the tragedies of CRT's premature demise is certainly that we never got to see Sony's final advances in production... :(

No,,, 16:10 and .24-.27 aperture grille...

Unkle Vito!
 

spacediver

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Believe me, I do have one of the "prototypes", as well as other "prototypes" in our lab...

Unkle Vito!

I do believe you. I was just saying that it's like someone showing the tastiest chocolate in the world but not letting others have a tiny taste :p

would u be able to share a photo (not so we believe u but so we can enjoy it)
 

Myramond

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I love Prototypes. :)

Like the others i would also like to see pictures of these versions which never got into massproduction.
 

Ashratt

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when i close my eyes, i still see cross hatch patterns at night ಠ_ಠ
i got the convergence pretty ok i think, but is it normal that i get yellow/red lines at the edges when i resize the picture / change my geometry settings afterwards?

(image just for fun)
V9iItXB.jpg
 

ZeosPantera

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You really shouldn't be going edge to edge if you aren't running a custom res. You usually have to leave 7/16" of black on the top, bottom or split between the two to have that circle be round.

__________________________________________________________
MY QUESTION!!!

Can I build a DVI-A to RGBHV BNC box? I know Eizo use to sell one for their high end monitors but that is impossible to find.

Would there be crazy shielding issues? Would there be any resistors or anything other then pin to pin connections required?

I have all the BNC connections and am willing to mess up a DVI cable or two to accomplish this and use ~12" Highly shielded Coax from my box to the monitor and standard DVI-A from my PC to my monitor.

EDIT: This looks interesting http://www.ebay.com/itm/DVI-I-Male-...=US_Video_Cables_Adapters&hash=item53ee411c12 I wonder if I could put an HDMI adapter on that and run the DVI branch to my projector with no ill effects.
 
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LAGRUNAUER

Gawd
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745
when i close my eyes, i still see cross hatch patterns at night ಠ_ಠ
i got the convergence pretty ok i think, but is it normal that i get yellow/red lines at the edges when i resize the picture / change my geometry settings afterwards?

(image just for fun)
V9iItXB.jpg

If you used the correct equipment and perform the convergence process of the GDM-FW900 correctly, you should not see any "red/yellow" lines at the edges of the unit and/or in any borders when resizing and/or changing resolutions or settings afterwards.

Hope this helps...

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!
 

jbltecnicspro

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What constitutes as correct equipment for convergence adjustment? Surely not just our eyes? Thanks, Vito!
 
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spacediver

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magnifying glass might help I guess - I'm planning on getting one, but am not sure if there's a particular type I should look for. Equipment wise, based on previous discussion, something that can ensure that a true magenta crosshatch is generated.
 

jbltecnicspro

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There are magnifying-glasswear that you can get too. My dentist uses a pair. I just wonder what it'll do to your eyes.
 

spacediver

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Another thing I was thinking about with respect to setting geometry, was dealing with parallax errors when measuring, for example, a circle (so you can adjust screen size to yield a perfect circle).

I suspect this problem could disappear with the antiglare removed, but it's tricky to precisely measure the distance between two points on the screen. One solution may be to use a straight object that you place perpendicular to the screen, and use as a sight. This will ensure that your line of sight is perpendicular to the point being measured, which will eliminate parallax errors.
 

LAGRUNAUER

Gawd
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What constitutes as correct equipment for convergence adjustment? Surely not just our eyes? Thanks, Vito!

For convergence, you would need a programmable video signal generator capable of controlling RGB signal and timings. The video signal generator needs to be programmed to generate the cross hatch patters at the correct timings and bandwidth that WinDAS requires. Some are already pre-programmed with the patterns.

We use several brands among Quantum Data, Sencore and Astro Design. I am so sorry but I cannot recommend any specific brand/model as it is what fits your needs/preferences best.

Hope this helps...

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!
 
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jbltecnicspro

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Thanks! But I guess my other question is - do you adjust by eye? Or do you wear magnifiers to see how well the guns are converged?
 
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