24" Widescreen CRT (FW900) From Ebay arrived,Comments.

LAGRUNAUER

Gawd
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745
I don't have the Argyll driver. I have the driver that came with the X-rite Monaco Optix Pro Program which included the DTP-94 colorimeter. The colorimeter installed flawles and Windows recorgnized the instrument plugged into one of the USB ports, but the program does not. It states that a DLL is missing... No clue... The drivers are in the root, just like in your case.

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!
 

jbltecnicspro

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Another question Vito,

I have a P991 that I'm learning WinDAS on. In the dynamic convergence tab, it gives me two procedures: "low" and "high." What is this? High seems to affect higher refresh rates while low affects lower, at least that's what I think is going on. The problem is once I adjust to low - high is off, and vice versa. What am I doing wrong?

PS - this is my "dump" monitor, so I'm willing to possibly ruin it in pursuit of mastering this software. Thanks!
 

LAGRUNAUER

Gawd
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745
Another question Vito,

I have a P991 that I'm learning WinDAS on. In the dynamic convergence tab, it gives me two procedures: "low" and "high." What is this? High seems to affect higher refresh rates while low affects lower, at least that's what I think is going on. The problem is once I adjust to low - high is off, and vice versa. What am I doing wrong?

PS - this is my "dump" monitor, so I'm willing to possibly ruin it in pursuit of mastering this software. Thanks!

You need to set the crosshatch pattern from the signal generator to correct gun, the horizontal and vertical frequencies, and refresh rate WinDAS is telling you. High is the high default resolution that particular monitor which is 1600x1200@85Hz, and Low is 640x480@60Hz. If you are using the correct instrumentation and you know what you are doing, the convergence adjustment should be on the money. Usually, high adjustment comes first, then the low.

Hope this helps...

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!
 

LAGRUNAUER

Gawd
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745
there's a guide here on dynamic convergence with windas, but it doesn't mention anything about low and high.

http://dor-lomin.com/images/forums/hardocp/windas-conv/

The guide skipped the "Low" resolution adjustment, which pretty much follows the same analogy as the "High" but the signal generator must be set to the "Low" resolution parameters that WinDAS will be telling you. Sending signals from a video card defeats the purpose of the process as it will be impossible to set the video card signal to the correct parameters WinDAS requires.

Hope this helps...

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!
 

spacediver

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Vito, I'm trying to learn about video signal generators, but it's hard to come by much information. How do they connect to the monitor? It couldn't be through the HD15 or BNC ports, else a video card would be able to achieve the same stuff. I also assume it's not through the 4 pin TTL port, else you wouldn't be able to run WinDAS at the same time.

Also, any ideas where one could find a budget signal generator that would be adequate for a "semi-professional" calibration, or at the very least, what are the minimum features I should look for in such a unit?
 

LAGRUNAUER

Gawd
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Vito, I'm trying to learn about video signal generators, but it's hard to come by much information. How do they connect to the monitor? It couldn't be through the HD15 or BNC ports, else a video card would be able to achieve the same stuff. I also assume it's not through the 4 pin TTL port, else you wouldn't be able to run WinDAS at the same time.

Also, any ideas where one could find a budget signal generator that would be adequate for a "semi-professional" calibration, or at the very least, what are the minimum features I should look for in such a unit?

Depending on the model and design, the video signal generator connects directly to the CRT monitor via HD15 and/or BNC. There are some video signal generators equipped with DVI ports, mini DC ports, and other ports. WinDAS/WinCAT runs from a computer, preferable a laptop.

You may find some bargains on eBay or even local Craigslist. The only drawback is the functionality, calibration and validation of the unit.

Hope this helps...

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!
 

jbltecnicspro

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Vito, I'm trying to learn about video signal generators, but it's hard to come by much information. How do they connect to the monitor? It couldn't be through the HD15 or BNC ports, else a video card would be able to achieve the same stuff. I also assume it's not through the 4 pin TTL port, else you wouldn't be able to run WinDAS at the same time.

Also, any ideas where one could find a budget signal generator that would be adequate for a "semi-professional" calibration, or at the very least, what are the minimum features I should look for in such a unit?

You can't achieve it with video card outputs. Last night I more or less proved Vito correct. I was trying to adjust my P991 and while I was able to do the "High" convergence (WinDAS wanted 1024x768 @ 85hz I believe), I couldn't do the "Low" at all. It wanted 900x970 @ 60hz cross-hatch pattern. Now, I generated a custom resolution of that, but Windows still insisted that my P991 couldn't do it (EDID issues) and instead just blew up a (I'm guessing at the resolution here) 1280x1024 screen on a 900x970 window (I had to scroll the screen to see the entire desktop) rather than resizing it to fit that resolution.

Signal generators really are a must for this stuff.

EDIT: Maybe this weekend I can try again and bypass EDID. But who knows. Windows may still not like the 900x970 resolution.
 

spacediver

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Depending on the model and design, the video signal generator connects directly to the CRT monitor via HD15 and/or BNC. There are some video signal generators equipped with DVI ports, mini DC ports, and other ports. WinDAS/WinCAT runs from a computer, preferable a laptop.

You may find some bargains on eBay or even local Craigslist. The only drawback is the functionality, calibration and validation of the unit.

Hope this helps...

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!

thanks, I'll start looking!

I still find it really strange that a signal generator can communicate more directly with the CRT than a video card, given that they both communicate through the same port. I thought it was basically all about a pattern of voltages over time. How does a signal generator manage to bypass all the internal tuning of the CRT such that it can control each gun directly, but a video card can't?
 
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jbltecnicspro

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thanks, I'll start looking!

I still find it really strange that a signal generator can communicate more directly with the CRT than a video card, given that they both communicate through the same port. I thought it was basically all about a pattern of voltages over time. How does a signal generator manage to bypass all the internal tuning of the CRT such that it can control each gun directly, but a video card can't?

I think this has more to do with software limitations of conventional operating systems than video cards being unable to actually do this. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a linux application that actually acts like a signal generator. In fact, I'll look one up during lunch today.
 

LAGRUNAUER

Gawd
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745
thanks, I'll start looking!

I still find it really strange that a signal generator can communicate more directly with the CRT than a video card, given that they both communicate through the same port. I thought it was basically all about a pattern of voltages over time. How does a signal generator manage to bypass all the internal tuning of the CRT such that it can control each gun directly, but a video card can't?

A signal generator does not bypass anything on a CRT or an LCD. It sends accutate video signal and allows total control and manipulation of the video signal. This can only be achieved with a digital video signal generator.

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!
 

spacediver

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a nice video about the sencore cr7000

http://youtu.be/t38OmzdsS7w?t=7m13s

looks very straight forward (probably not :D) and must work like a miracle for crts. i want one now :(

the cr 70's seem easier to find (and much much cheaper). The cr7000 is apparently the "top of the food chain" but not sure how exactly it differs from the cr70. Probably runs more sophisticated tests. But in terms of rejuvenation, they might be identical (total guess). look forward to watching that video u posted, thanks!
 

LAGRUNAUER

Gawd
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745
the cr 70's seem easier to find (and much much cheaper). The cr7000 is apparently the "top of the food chain" but not sure how exactly it differs from the cr70. Probably runs more sophisticated tests. But in terms of rejuvenation, they might be identical (total guess). look forward to watching that video u posted, thanks!

We have both units in the lab and they work great in the diagnostics of CRT faults. The main difference is that the CR-7000 tests all the CRT's guns simultaneously, whereas the CR-70 does it one by one.

The use of these instruments is not straight forward, and if not used properly will burn the CRT beyond repair. You must know how to properly identify the CRT in order to select the correct adaptor and the parameters for that particular CRT. You must know the CRT's neck assembly pin out array in order to properly attach the adaptor. This can only be found on the GDM-FW900 Service Manual. There are specific schematics of the CRT neck assembly, guns, and pin out.

If the CRT is not correctly identified, and/or the adaptor is not properly attached and/or the wrong adaptor is attached, and/or too much the filament voltage is applied to the CRT, kiss the CRT good bye. Is fried! I have seen this happen way too many times.

My suggestion is for you to get a hold of the manual that comes with the instrument, and read it thoroughly. Then learn how to properly identify the CRT and then learn the parameters for that particular tube so you can setup the instrument before the testing. Become familiar with the CRT's neck assembly pin out array so the proper adaptor is selected and properly attached. Apply the correct voltage to the filament only if the adapter is attached to the CRT. If not, you may run the risk of burning the instrument (is clearly stated in the manual).

Avoid purchasing these instruments if neither the manual nor the CRT setup book is included. Both come with the instruments and they are absolutely necessary otherwise you will be lost in space.

Hope this helps...

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!
 

spacediver

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wow, thanks again for the great information. This sort of information is extremely hard to come by these days, and your generosity with sharing your knowledge is very valuable to many of us.

Have you considered making videos to share? I know I'd pay a fair amount for quality video tutorials.
 

jbltecnicspro

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wow, thanks again for the great information. This sort of information is extremely hard to come by these days, and your generosity with sharing your knowledge is very valuable to many of us.

Have you considered making videos to share? I know I'd pay a fair amount for quality video tutorials.

Ditto. I'd love to sign up for CRT repair/calibration seminar if given.

EDIT: I'm also working in Linux to create a custom resolution of 900x970 for the WinDAS convergence calibration. Looks like Linux is far more flexible than windows in this regard, as I'm able to dictate everything that WinDAS tells me to the "T." More to come.
 
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jbltecnicspro

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Fantastic news - it worked. I was able to get the High and Low DnCV resolution set. Woot! A word to the wise though: Linux will get it close (I'm not using a discrete card - so it might be different with an AMD or Nvidia driver), but NOT exact. Sony for the "High" demands 900x970 @85hz (I misspoke earlier) and "Low" demands 1024x780 @ 60hz. Linux gets 1024x780 on the money, but 900x970 is rendered as 904x970. So yes - it's off by 4 pixels, but still - it's NOT exact.

If you're a gamer, then this procedure will be more than sufficient. The screen now looks great! But if you're seeking exact specs - you'll still need to get a generator.
 

jbltecnicspro

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Also - can someone help me to lower the red gun drive? I've tried to lower it in the DAT file, but it doesn't seem to have an effect on it...
 

spacediver

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interesting. I'm gonna try calling around to some local crt repair shops (which are almost impossible to find!) and see if anyone has a spare signal generator and/or sencore CR-70 they want to sell.
 

LAGRUNAUER

Gawd
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745
interesting. I'm gonna try calling around to some local crt repair shops (which are almost impossible to find!) and see if anyone has a spare signal generator and/or sencore CR-70 they want to sell.

We do have a CR-70 available that was a backup unit. PM me for more info...

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!
 

LAGRUNAUER

Gawd
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745
wow, thanks again for the great information. This sort of information is extremely hard to come by these days, and your generosity with sharing your knowledge is very valuable to many of us.

Have you considered making videos to share? I know I'd pay a fair amount for quality video tutorials.

No videos, but I have been offered propositions to host "hands-on" seminars around the country. The issue has been that at the moment to sign contracts and get compensation, I never heard back from the promoters.

Also, I had several propositions to have me flown for "one-on-one" training sessions, but... again, at the moment to sign contract and agreements, and get compensation, they have never materialized.

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!
 
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LAGRUNAUER

Gawd
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745
wow, thanks again for the great information. This sort of information is extremely hard to come by these days, and your generosity with sharing your knowledge is very valuable to many of us.

Have you considered making videos to share? I know I'd pay a fair amount for quality video tutorials.

My pleasure!

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!
 

jbltecnicspro

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My pleasure!

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!

We do appreciate it. I just emailed a local calibrator dude who does mostly Home Theater, and he said that my display looks to use some quirky tools and that he's not interested... Oh well. I guess there can only be one Unkle Vito! Unkle Vito, do you have a website? I was just curious to read a bio or something. How did you come to be in the CRT business anyway?
 

LAGRUNAUER

Gawd
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745
We do appreciate it. I just emailed a local calibrator dude who does mostly Home Theater, and he said that my display looks to use some quirky tools and that he's not interested... Oh well. I guess there can only be one Unkle Vito! Unkle Vito, do you have a website? I was just curious to read a bio or something. How did you come to be in the CRT business anyway?

I have a domain but I have not had the time to set it up. I am an engineer and have been working with electronics, transistors, CRTs and others since I was a kid...

The local calibrator may not be familiar with the process of calibrating CRTs, specially via WinDAS/WinCAT; and most likely that is why he declined to service your monitor. There are only a handful of CRT professionals left in the world, and very few that service and calibrates them. I happen to be one of them...

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!
 

spacediver

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regarding video signal generator vs software, I just started this thread on the AVSforums:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1490476/software-simulation-of-video-signal-generator-for-crt

interestingly:

A zero input signal is a zero input signal. Granted these days the RAMDAC on video cards is a total after thought, but when they were important a card like a MATROX used to have as good an analog output as any signal generator.

Since your PC is the source you intend to use with the monitor their isn't a better signal generator than that PC.

Also, the point was brought up that it's hard to imagine how a signal generator could bypass the EEPROM so as to control the guns more directly.
 

jbltecnicspro

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Vito did mention that his equipment can work with WinDAS directly, so perhaps there's something more than meets the eye.

Also, keep in mind that a signal generator is infinitely more programmable and tweakable than a VGA board. With a video card, it's hamstrung by the operating environment it's working with (Windows, for example is a HUGE pain-in-the-ass compared to Linux). Signal generators, like the Sencore ones, you can manually adjust till you nail the specific setting required by WinDAS; producing a much more accurate calibration.
 

jbltecnicspro

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not sure, but perhaps going through a proper white point adjustment may solve the problem. (you'd need a colorimeter/spectrophotometer for this though).

Yeah (my post above is responding to your other post about the signal generators, fyi) - I don't need a whitepoint balance adjustment for the P991 (the dump monitor, lol). I definitely see it has a little too much red though, and just needed to bring it down a little. I know it won't be accurate, but it's a LAN party box - so it's not a huge issue.
 

spacediver

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based on the AVS thread, a white point balance adjusts the scaling of the input signal to each gun, so that they're mixed appropriately to achieve the desired white point targets. If your white point is ill-calibrated, this could account for the excessive drive on the red gun (although the problem could lie elsewhere). By doing a proper white point adjustment, you'll at least be balancing the inputs correctly to achieve white, and this may solve your issue. At the very least, you can attempt a white point adjustment using your eye only and see if it changes anything.
 

jbltecnicspro

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based on the AVS thread, a white point balance adjusts the scaling of the input signal to each gun, so that they're mixed appropriately to achieve the desired white point targets. If your white point is ill-calibrated, this could account for the excessive drive on the red gun (although the problem could lie elsewhere). By doing a proper white point adjustment, you'll at least be balancing the inputs correctly to achieve white, and this may solve your issue. At the very least, you can attempt a white point adjustment using your eye only and see if it changes anything.

Last time I did this messed it up quite a bit. Made the screen very dark... I will try again though.
 

spacediver

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What was the workflow like - was there any point in the process where it asked you to adjust the guns until they reached a certain luminance? Or did it only ask you to adjust until you reached certain color coordinates?
 

LAGRUNAUER

Gawd
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745
Vito did mention that his equipment can work with WinDAS directly, so perhaps there's something more than meets the eye.

Also, keep in mind that a signal generator is infinitely more programmable and tweakable than a VGA board. With a video card, it's hamstrung by the operating environment it's working with (Windows, for example is a HUGE pain-in-the-ass compared to Linux). Signal generators, like the Sencore ones, you can manually adjust till you nail the specific setting required by WinDAS; producing a much more accurate calibration.

That is correct!

Unkle Vito!
 

LAGRUNAUER

Gawd
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745
based on the AVS thread, a white point balance adjusts the scaling of the input signal to each gun, so that they're mixed appropriately to achieve the desired white point targets. If your white point is ill-calibrated, this could account for the excessive drive on the red gun (although the problem could lie elsewhere). By doing a proper white point adjustment, you'll at least be balancing the inputs correctly to achieve white, and this may solve your issue. At the very least, you can attempt a white point adjustment using your eye only and see if it changes anything.

You CANNOT perform white point balances with you eyes only...

Unkle Vito!
 

LAGRUNAUER

Gawd
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745
not sure, but perhaps going through a proper white point adjustment may solve the problem. (you'd need a colorimeter/spectrophotometer for this though).

You need more instrumentation and equipment than that. First, check tube and gun integrity. If they check OK, then proceed with the white point balance. In my experience, 90% of the issues with CRTs are tube and gun related; the other 10% are intenal components failures.

Hope this helps...

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!
 
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