24" Widescreen CRT (FW900) From Ebay arrived,Comments.

spacediver

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If I were to wager a guess, adjusting it in WinDAS would bring certain levels to where they need to be, so that proper output would correspond to their OSD adjustments. A few posts back, Vito said something to the effect of: when properly calibrated, the FW900 should produce an inky black when the brightness is set to 50. White level should be on point at Contrast = 90. When your brightness is too high or low for 50 = black, then a G2 adjustment is needed (something that the OSD can't do). I'm assuming the same can be said for geometry, landing, focus, etc. It would be really helpful to get factory specs as to what should be what when adjusting everything in WinDAS.

Yep, I understand this, and my proviso was that one could use WinDAS to adjust the G2 voltage (so that 50 percent brightness gives inky black).

I'm more interested in the white point balance and greyscale. Once you've taken care of the G2, I see no reason why the OSD can't do a good job. Not saying there isn't a reason, I'd just like to have it explained :)
 

jbltecnicspro

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Yep, I understand this, and my proviso was that one could use WinDAS to adjust the G2 voltage (so that 50 percent brightness gives inky black).

I'm more interested in the white point balance and greyscale. Once you've taken care of the G2, I see no reason why the OSD can't do a good job. Not saying there isn't a reason, I'd just like to have it explained :)

Oh okay. Didn't understand your question fully then. :) I was looking to color calibrate my FW900 eventually.
 

LAGRUNAUER

Gawd
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Lagrunauer,

Good to see you back! Got a question about your post, and it's something I've been pondering for a while.

My understanding is that if the electronic components do not fail (transistors, capacitors, etc.), the ultimate limit on the lifespan of a CRT is the supply of electrons from the cathode (and perhaps the lifetime of the phosphor). Sure, you can recondition the cathode with a Sencore CR-7000 and maybe give it a year or 2 extra life, but once you run out of electrons, that's it.

If this is true, then it would seem that the way to ensure maximum lifespan (while maintaining excellent image quality) is to ensure that the electron guns are not being over used in general, and that they are not being used in an unbalanced manner (which would lead to differential "wear and tear" on the guns).

I assume that the way that this is done is to keep the contrast within good spec (i.e. maintain good black level and not too high of a white level), to keep the gamma at the correct level, and to keep excellent greyscale balance across the entire range of luminance (which includes whitepoint balance).

My question is this:

Assuming the above is correct, and assuming you are able to adjust the G2 voltage through WinDAS, why can't you use the OSD to calibrate the luminance, contrast, gamma, and greyscale (assuming you have a decent spectrophotometer/colorimeter)? Why would that be inferior to doing it through WinCAT? Assuming you have good test patterns, and a good video card to display them (and you keep the video card settings on default), wouldn't the end result be the same as if you had done this through WinCAT?

You cannot adjust the G2 with the OSD because there is no G2 adjustment function on the OSD controls, but only in WinDAS. The OSD is entirely dependent on the EEPROM settings of the monitor, which stores the file with all the control parameters of the monitor's functionality. These are the "reference" adjustment and control parameters which must be "in Sony factory specs" for the monitor to work correctly. If these parameters are "off specs", then all your OSD adjustments will be "off" as well no matter what you do or try... Unless a WinDAS adjustment is performed.

The only way to keep these monitors working properly is to give them TLC by proper maintenance and ZERO abuse. Fine tuning the monitor is only done by WinDAS/WinCAT factory calibration and adjustment of critical parameters such as G2 and white point balance as well as others that most of you know by now. This is not rocket science and is been posted over and over on this forum...

Later on, I will be addressing the Sencore CR-7000 and the CRT...

Hope this helps...

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!
 

LAGRUNAUER

Gawd
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Dec 7, 2006
Messages
745
If I were to wager a guess, adjusting it in WinDAS would bring certain levels to where they need to be, so that proper output would correspond to their OSD adjustments. A few posts back, Vito said something to the effect of: when properly calibrated, the FW900 should produce an inky black when the brightness is set to 50. White level should be on point at Contrast = 90. When your brightness is too high or low for 50 = black, then a G2 adjustment is needed (something that the OSD can't do). I'm assuming the same can be said for geometry, landing, focus, etc. It would be really helpful to get factory specs as to what should be what when adjusting everything in WinDAS.

Obviously, he's the expert and not I - so just take my guess as what it is - a guess. :)

Vito - good to see you still here. Reading your post, is it safe to assume that you don't give out WinDAS adjustment information for free? I would really love to get more insights as to how to properly work with and calibrate my monitor, as I can't afford to ship my screen out anytime. I've already gotten a decent handle (I think) as to how the software works, but I would love to get more calibration specs and information. Eventually, I'll be saving enough money to purchase one of your 520's or 900's (or possibly - if you still have them - a zero hours 520). Thanks for helping all of us GDM owners out. :D

The calibration specs are specified on WinDAS/WinCAT when you are running the program! It will give you the target points and the ranges. The key is to have the proper equipment and instrumentation that will enable the user to get accurate readings and then perform the adjustments. Without proper equipment and instrumentation, accurate calibration and proper adjustment will never be achieved.

Maybe in the future, I may consider offering a WinDAS monitor calibration seminar for all of you to attend. That way, I can better illustrate what this powerful program can do.

Hope this helps...

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!
 

spacediver

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Hi Lagrunauer,

Thanks for the reply. I'm fully aware that the G2 voltage is an important part of calibration and that it cannot be addressed through the OSD. I included this in my post.

But once you have taken care of the G2 voltage, why can you not use the OSD to perform a careful white point balance and greyscale adjustment, using good equipment. Why is it necessary to do it through WinCAT/WinDAS (once you've taken care of G2).

These reference specs you talk of are presumably the CIEXYZ values for the white point balance. And you need to balance the guns such that when they are fed a video signal with equal values for RGB, they produce the desired white point. But why is it not as good to do this through the OSD using RGB gain and offset controls (once you've taken care of G2). Why would doing it through WinDAS/WinCAT be better for the monitor's lifespan? (again, regarding lifespan and finite supply of electrons, see my previous post where I asked the original question).
 

LAGRUNAUER

Gawd
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745
Yep, I understand this, and my proviso was that one could use WinDAS to adjust the G2 voltage (so that 50 percent brightness gives inky black).

I'm more interested in the white point balance and greyscale. Once you've taken care of the G2, I see no reason why the OSD can't do a good job. Not saying there isn't a reason, I'd just like to have it explained :)

A properly calibrated and adjusted Sony GDM monitor (FW900, C520, F520, E540, G520, G520P, and others) will have a perfect image (blacks, grey a good color purity) at D50, D65, D93 and sRGB with the brightness set at 50 and the contrast set at 85, which are the defaults once the WinDAS process is completed for a white point balance adjustment.

Hope this helps...

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!
 

LAGRUNAUER

Gawd
Joined
Dec 7, 2006
Messages
745
Hi Lagrunauer,

Thanks for the reply. I'm fully aware that the G2 voltage is an important part of calibration and that it cannot be addressed through the OSD. I included this in my post.

But once you have taken care of the G2 voltage, why can you not use the OSD to perform a careful white point balance and greyscale adjustment, using good equipment. Why is it necessary to do it through WinCAT/WinDAS (once you've taken care of G2).

These reference specs you talk of are presumably the CIEXYZ values for the white point balance. And you need to balance the guns such that when they are fed a video signal with equal values for RGB, they produce the desired white point. But why is it not as good to do this through the OSD using RGB gain and offset controls (once you've taken care of G2). Why would doing it through WinDAS/WinCAT be better for the monitor's lifespan? (again, regarding lifespan and finite supply of electrons, see my previous post where I asked the original question).

Again , you cannot adjust the G2 with the OSD because there is no G2 adjustment function on the OSD controls, but only in WinDAS. The OSD is entirely dependent on the EEPROM settings of the monitor, which stores the file with all the control parameters of the monitor's functionality. These are the "reference" adjustment and control parameters which must be "in Sony factory specs" for the monitor to work correctly. If these parameters are "off specs", then all your OSD adjustments will be "off" as well no matter what you do or try... Unless a WinDAS adjustment is performed.

Also, if you perform any adjustments in WinDAS/WinCAT, PLEASE DO NOT CUT CORNERS AND COMPLETE THE ENTIRE ADJUSTMENT PROCEDURE! Adjusting only the G2 then canceling the process IS NOT RECOMMENDED!!!

There are commercial color calibration software and systems that will produce ICC profiles for your monitor, and the adjustments you made are done with the OSD controls of the monitor. The programs will generate an accurate ICC profile for the monitor as long the "reference" adjustment and control parameters are in specs. Now, if these "reference" adjustment and control parameters of the monitor are off specs and/or the monitor has any malfunctions such as faulty gun(s), shorts, low emission, etc, the ICC profiles will be worthless (large delta E).

Hope this helps...

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!
 

LAGRUNAUER

Gawd
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Dec 7, 2006
Messages
745
Yep, I understand this, and my proviso was that one could use WinDAS to adjust the G2 voltage (so that 50 percent brightness gives inky black).

I'm more interested in the white point balance and greyscale. Once you've taken care of the G2, I see no reason why the OSD can't do a good job. Not saying there isn't a reason, I'd just like to have it explained :)

SOFTWARE CALIBRATION (XRITE i1, COLORVISION, ETC), AND HARDWARE CALIBRATION (WINDAS/WINCAT) ARE NOT THE SAME!!!
 

LAGRUNAUER

Gawd
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745
SOFTWARE CALIBRATION (XRITE i1, COLORVISION, ETC), AND HARDWARE CALIBRATION (WINDAS/WINCAT) ARE NOT THE SAME!!!
 

jbltecnicspro

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SOFTWARE CALIBRATION (XRITE i1, COLORVISION, ETC), AND HARDWARE CALIBRATION (WINDAS/WINCAT) ARE NOT THE SAME!!!

Aware of that. Wasn't going the software route. ;) Edit - and thanks for hanging out here still. Do your artisan models come with the color profiler?

Oh, and while we still have you on here - what's a good way to do Dynamic Convergence adjustment? What resolution should we be doing it at? And is WinDAS trustworthy in telling us what to do? The common practice for those who don't have signal generators is to use the Nokia monitor test patterns and do it off of that. What signal generator would you recommend getting (believe it or not, I fully intend to go hardcore if I need to - I love these old screens).

I should reiterate what I mean by "is WinDAS trust worthy." With my P-991, it told me to set the monitor to 1024x768 which I did. I adjusted the convergence off that, but it seems to be a little out of whack in some areas that were too fine for 1024x768. Since the monitor is a 19-inch Trinitron, should I have instead done the Nokia test pattern and convergence adjustments at 1280x960? And FYI - I'm not afraid of ruining this monitor getting my hands dirty - I found it next to a dumpster. Everything seems to be a-okay with it though, after my initial WinDAS treatment. :)
 
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spacediver

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SOFTWARE CALIBRATION (XRITE i1, COLORVISION, ETC), AND HARDWARE CALIBRATION (WINDAS/WINCAT) ARE NOT THE SAME!!!

I wasn't implying that one calibrate on a software level. That's not a sustainable way to calibrate as you end up with custom look up tables and profiles that overlay the hardware and make things messy. And it's not a good solution to have a poorly calibrated CRT and then compensate with software, which doesn't fix the underlying problem.

I'm well aware of this.

The only software that I use is HCFR and I use this to provide raw readings. Based on these raw readings from my colorimeter, I then adjust the RGB gain and offsets accordingly. It's a time consuming process, and can take hours to do. Again, this process doesn't generate "profiles" that need to be loaded. Any and all adjustments are done on the OSD (after adjusting G2 on the WinDAS).
 
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spacediver

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I guess another way of asking my question is this:

Take these two scenarios:

Scenario 1:

You use WinDAS/WinCAT to do the white point balance (with the help of your colorimeter/spectrophotometer). In the process, G2 voltage is adjusted to the appropriate value. You do a calibration check and find excellent delta E's, white point balance, and the proper gamma value.

Scenario 2:

You use WinDAS to adjust the G2 to the appropriate level.

You then use your colorimeter/spectrophotometer to measure some test patterns, and adjust the RGB gain and bias. Also make the assumption that your video card produces the same quality signal as a video signal generator. You then do a calibration check and find that your delta Es, white point balance, and gamma, are all excellent.


Is there a difference between the two scenarios in terms of how the electron guns are actually tuned?
 
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ZeosPantera

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Anyone know of or want to make a short youtube video describing the process of calibrating this monitor with Windas? Reading instructions and hearing/seeing someone complete them are totally different. I would set out with far greater confidence if the steps were shown to me instead of trying to piece them together from forum posts.
 

spacediver

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A properly calibrated and adjusted Sony GDM monitor (FW900, C520, F520, E540, G520, G520P, and others) will have a perfect image (blacks, grey a good color purity) at D50, D65, D93 and sRGB with the brightness set at 50 and the contrast set at 85, which are the defaults once the WinDAS process is completed for a white point balance adjustment.

Hope this helps...

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!

I run my OSD color control in expert mode, and use a D65 target when doing my white point balance. So calibrating those other targets (D50, D95, sRGB) in advance, while important for others, isn't important to me, as I don't have the need to switch between those modes.

I guess it would be nice to do the white point balance directly through WinDAS and WinCAT, but I don't have a video signal generator, and I find the expert color controls on the OSD safe and user friendly. I suppose I could use a second computer to display test images, similarly to how dynamic convergence is done.

Also, if you perform any adjustments in WinDAS/WinCAT, PLEASE DO NOT CUT CORNERS AND COMPLETE THE ENTIRE ADJUSTMENT PROCEDURE! Adjusting only the G2 then canceling the process IS NOT RECOMMENDED!!!


What if you adjust the G2 value directly by modifying the file (as opposed to going through the whole calibration procedure). That would enable people to adjust the G2 without prematurely halting the adjustment procedure and canceling the process, right?

From my limited understanding of CRTs, the G2 voltage (also known as "screen" voltage) provides a kind of "brake" on the electrons. The anode pulls the electrons out of the gun, and the g2 voltage counteracts this pull. So by lowering the G2 voltage, you are "taking your foot off the brakes", and allowing more electrons through.

This should obviously be done with caution, as you don't want to burn out the phosphors with too much brightness.

So suppose you experiment with some values of G2, such that you get a nice 10000:1 contrast ratio at 50 brightness and 85 contrast (black level at around 0.01 cd/m^2 and white level at 100 cd/m^2). Wouldn't that be a good starting point to use the OSD expert color controls to achieve a good greyscale and white point balance?

With the RGB bias and gain, you have six different controls (Red bias, Red gain, Blue bias, Blue gain, Green bias, Green gain) that you can adjust. If you adjust these intelligently (adjusting the biases for low LRE test patterns, and gain for high LRE patterns), and your instruments tell you that you have low delta e's, good gamma, etc., then is your monitor in good standing?

With WinDAS/WinCAT, what extra controls do you have to achieve color calibration?
 
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spacediver

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Anyone know of or want to make a short youtube video describing the process of calibrating this monitor with Windas? Reading instructions and hearing/seeing someone complete them are totally different. I would set out with far greater confidence if the steps were shown to me instead of trying to piece them together from forum posts.

there's a youtube video of someone adjusting G2 voltage through WinDAS. lemme know if u need help finding it.
 

LAGRUNAUER

Gawd
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I run my OSD color control in expert mode, and use a D65 target when doing my white point balance. So calibrating those other targets (D50, D95, sRGB) in advance, while important for others, isn't important to me, as I don't have the need to switch between those modes.

I guess it would be nice to do the white point balance directly through WinDAS and WinCAT, but I don't have a video signal generator, and I find the expert color controls on the OSD safe and user friendly. I suppose I could use a second computer to display test images, similarly to how dynamic convergence is done.




What if you adjust the G2 value directly by modifying the file (as opposed to going through the whole calibration procedure). That would enable people to adjust the G2 without prematurely halting the adjustment procedure and canceling the process, right?

From my limited understanding of CRTs, the G2 voltage (also known as "screen" voltage) provides a kind of "brake" on the electrons. The anode pulls the electrons out of the gun, and the g2 voltage counteracts this pull. So by lowering the G2 voltage, you are "taking your foot off the brakes", and allowing more electrons through.

This should obviously be done with caution, as you don't want to burn out the phosphors with too much brightness.

So suppose you experiment with some values of G2, such that you get a nice 10000:1 contrast ratio at 50 brightness and 85 contrast (black level at around 0.01 cd/m^2 and white level at 100 cd/m^2). Wouldn't that be a good starting point to use the OSD expert color controls to achieve a good greyscale and white point balance?

With the RGB bias and gain, you have six different controls (Red bias, Red gain, Blue bias, Blue gain, Green bias, Green gain) that you can adjust. If you adjust these intelligently (adjusting the biases for low LRE test patterns, and gain for high LRE patterns), and your instruments tell you that you have low delta e's, good gamma, etc., then is your monitor in good standing?

With WinDAS/WinCAT, what extra controls do you have to achieve color calibration?

With all my due respect, you are comparing apples to oranges with your analogy... Again, hardware calibration done via WinDAS/WinCAT is not the same as software calibration using OSD controls, and/or with a program which will generate an ICC profile for your monitor... The best way to understand what I am trying to explain is to have you perform the white point balance in WinDAS/WinCAT, and then you'll realize that NONE of the OSD controls are used in the process. All the adjustments are done via WinDAS/WinCAT on the EPPROM from measurements and patterns generated with the correct equipment and instrumentation. Also, modifying a EPPROM file by changing the parameters manually without performing the required measurements and/or going thru the entire adjustment process is not recommended and it may render your monitor unusable beyond repair. This is cutting corners and again that is a no-no...

Hope this helps...

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!
 

LAGRUNAUER

Gawd
Joined
Dec 7, 2006
Messages
745
I guess another way of asking my question is this:

Take these two scenarios:

Scenario 1:

You use WinDAS/WinCAT to do the white point balance (with the help of your colorimeter/spectrophotometer). In the process, G2 voltage is adjusted to the appropriate value. You do a calibration check and find excellent delta E's, white point balance, and the proper gamma value.

Scenario 2:

You use WinDAS to adjust the G2 to the appropriate level.

You then use your colorimeter/spectrophotometer to measure some test patterns, and adjust the RGB gain and bias. Also make the assumption that your video card produces the same quality signal as a video signal generator. You then do a calibration check and find that your delta Es, white point balance, and gamma, are all excellent.


Is there a difference between the two scenarios in terms of how the electron guns are actually tuned?

Scenario # 1 is the proper way to perform a white point balance adjustment. Scenario # 2 is not...

Hope this helps...

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!
 

LAGRUNAUER

Gawd
Joined
Dec 7, 2006
Messages
745
Aware of that. Wasn't going the software route. ;) Edit - and thanks for hanging out here still. Do your artisan models come with the color profiler?

Oh, and while we still have you on here - what's a good way to do Dynamic Convergence adjustment? What resolution should we be doing it at? And is WinDAS trustworthy in telling us what to do? The common practice for those who don't have signal generators is to use the Nokia monitor test patterns and do it off of that. What signal generator would you recommend getting (believe it or not, I fully intend to go hardcore if I need to - I love these old screens).

I should reiterate what I mean by "is WinDAS trust worthy." With my P-991, it told me to set the monitor to 1024x768 which I did. I adjusted the convergence off that, but it seems to be a little out of whack in some areas that were too fine for 1024x768. Since the monitor is a 19-inch Trinitron, should I have instead done the Nokia test pattern and convergence adjustments at 1280x960? And FYI - I'm not afraid of ruining this monitor getting my hands dirty - I found it next to a dumpster. Everything seems to be a-okay with it though, after my initial WinDAS treatment. :)

The best way to perform Dynamic Convergence (DC) adjustments via WinDAS is... first to have all the proper equipment and instrumentation. In addition to the computer running the program, you will need a video signal generator capable of reproducing cross-hatched patterns at the correct polarity and bandwidth. DC via WinDAS is done in two cycles: a high resolution adjustment and a low resolution adjustment. WinDAS will tell you the resolutions and polarities to set up your signal generator in addition to the gun(s). I use Quantum Data and Sencore signal generators which are specifically programmed to work with WinDAS, but I do not control the generator via WinDAS (it can be). I like to do it manually...

Performing adjustments with just the video board of your computer and a pattern generator program will not reproduced the accurate signal at specific polarity and bandwidth necessary to achieve proper adjustments.

And lastly... YES! All our Artisans come with the Color Reference System and the Color Sensor (calibrator), in addition to being Grade A+ fully calibrated to Sony factory specs. I have two (2) brand new zero (0) hours of use in the tube. For more info, please check my eBay auctions...

Hope this helps...

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!
 

jbltecnicspro

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How much do those signal generators cost? You shouldn't tell us obsessive-compulsives all this stuff, Vito. There goes my weekend. :D
 

spacediver

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With all my due respect, you are comparing apples to oranges with your analogy... Again, hardware calibration done via WinDAS/WinCAT is not the same as software calibration using OSD controls, and/or with a program which will generate an ICC profile for your monitor... The best way to understand what I am trying to explain is to have you perform the white point balance in WinDAS/WinCAT, and then you'll realize that NONE of the OSD controls are used in the process. All the adjustments are done via WinDAS/WinCAT on the EPPROM from measurements and patterns generated with the correct equipment and instrumentation. Also, modifying a EPPROM file by changing the parameters manually without performing the required measurements and/or going thru the entire adjustment process is not recommended and it may render your monitor unusable beyond repair. This is cutting corners and again that is a no-no...

Hope this helps...

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!

I understand that the OSD controls are not used at all during the WinDAS/WinCAT process to achieve white balance. I'm trying to understand exactly what happens on the hardware level when you calibrate the guns using the WinDAS/WinCAT way.

I'm assuming that the gain and bias setting modulate the circuits that control how many electrons are pulled from each gun, depending on the input signal from the video card. Doesn't WinDAS/WinCAT do exactly the same thing? If not, how does it differ?

That's what I'm trying to understand here - I'm NOT saying you're wrong, or that I disagree. I'd just like you to give more information about how it differs.

And despite my stubbornness here, I do appreciate your patience :)
 

spacediver

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Performing adjustments with just the video board of your computer and a pattern generator program will not reproduced the accurate signal at specific polarity and bandwidth necessary to achieve proper adjustments.

Here is a screenshot of the custom display properties on my video card. Would these be sufficient to generate the correct parameters for test patterns? (notice you can change polarity)

2dhihvl.png
 

LAGRUNAUER

Gawd
Joined
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Messages
745
Here is a screenshot of the custom display properties on my video card. Would these be sufficient to generate the correct parameters for test patterns? (notice you can change polarity)

2dhihvl.png

With a video card, you won't be able to control the R, G, B color bands from each gun individually. This is absolutely necessary to produce patterns in which only one of the three guns is on and the cross hatch is magenta. The image reproduced is a magenta cross hatch and the alignment background are thin blue lines on the cross hatch that must be aligned to the magenta cross hatch in order to achieve uniform convergence of the CRT.

A video board source, although can give you the minimum source of video reproduction, is not what is used in Sony factory calibration and alignment of these units.

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!
 

LAGRUNAUER

Gawd
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Messages
745
How much do those signal generators cost? You shouldn't tell us obsessive-compulsives all this stuff, Vito. There goes my weekend. :D

You need to relax! I am trying to be objective on my responses. WinDAS/WinCAT adjustments are not "a walk in the park"... They are difficult and tedious, and unless you have knowledge of the program and have the proper equipment, you will not achieve accurate results.

We used laboratory grade instrumentation and equipment which is expensive for the average user. I am sorry if I come across blunt but this is a fact! You may find in the trade some bargains on older equipment and instrumentation but you will run into the issue of not being factory calibrated and/or certified, and/or with functionality issues.

Please check my past posts where I outline the proper equipment that is needed to perform calibration and adjustments via WinDAS/WinCAT.

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!
 

LAGRUNAUER

Gawd
Joined
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Messages
745
I understand that the OSD controls are not used at all during the WinDAS/WinCAT process to achieve white balance. I'm trying to understand exactly what happens on the hardware level when you calibrate the guns using the WinDAS/WinCAT way.

I'm assuming that the gain and bias setting modulate the circuits that control how many electrons are pulled from each gun, depending on the input signal from the video card. Doesn't WinDAS/WinCAT do exactly the same thing? If not, how does it differ?

That's what I'm trying to understand here - I'm NOT saying you're wrong, or that I disagree. I'd just like you to give more information about how it differs.

And despite my stubbornness here, I do appreciate your patience :)

Bias/Gains (control grid/cathode volage) changes the intensity of the electron bean. For instance, a higher bias is equal to lower bean current which equals less light out put. Lower bias is the opposite. This can be controlled with the OSD.

In WinDAS/WinCAT, the adjustment is made directly to the EEPROM which controls every functional aspect of the monitor and it is a global adjustment of each color band and gun at the monitor's four white balance reference standard points (D50, D65, D93 and sRGB).

The difference is that the OSD adjustment can be wiped out if you hit the "reset" button and/or you engage the "image restore" function. The adjustment made in WinDAS/WinCAT reside on the unit's EEPROM and can only be changed/altered/wiped out via WinDAS/WinCAT.

Hope this helps...

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!
 

spacediver

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With a video card, you won't be able to control the R, G, B color bands from each gun individually. This is absolutely necessary to produce patterns in which only one of the three guns is on and the cross hatch is magenta. The image reproduced is a magenta cross hatch and the alignment background are thin blue lines on the cross hatch that must be aligned to the magenta cross hatch in order to achieve uniform convergence of the CRT.

A video board source, although can give you the minimum source of video reproduction, is not what is used in Sony factory calibration and alignment of these units.

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!

Interesting, that does make sense. If you ask your video card to send only a red signal (test pattern contains RGB value of (255 0 0), I suppose that does not guarantee that only the red gun will emit a beam. The video card interprets the RGB value and directs the CRT to emit a certain combination of the guns that it thinks represents true red. But true red does not mean that the other guns won't be activated. I can see how this would be an issue for proper convergence adjustments. I wonder if there is a way to control the firing of the guns more directly, without a video board. Or perhaps there are cheap video boards that can at least generate the cross hatch patterns for convergence adjustment at different resolutions.
 

jbltecnicspro

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7,657
You need to relax! I am trying to be objective on my responses. WinDAS/WinCAT adjustments are not "a walk in the park"... They are difficult and tedious, and unless you have knowledge of the program and have the proper equipment, you will not achieve accurate results.

We used laboratory grade instrumentation and equipment which is expensive for the average user. I am sorry if I come across blunt but this is a fact! You may find in the trade some bargains on older equipment and instrumentation but you will run into the issue of not being factory calibrated and/or certified, and/or with functionality issues.

Please check my past posts where I outline the proper equipment that is needed to perform calibration and adjustments via WinDAS/WinCAT.

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!

Don't worry! I'm as relaxed as can be. :) My statement was only meant to be a little joke is all. I mean... I DO love this stuff, so I could theoretically kill a weekend doing this (but with all love and respect for my wife - I won't). I'll check out your other posts about equipment. Interesting stuff about the individual gun alignments.

If it's not too much to ask - how much does a calibration cost? Thanks Vito!
 

spacediver

2[H]4U
Joined
Mar 14, 2013
Messages
2,681
Bias/Gains (control grid/cathode volage) changes the intensity of the electron bean. For instance, a higher bias is equal to lower bean current which equals less light out put. Lower bias is the opposite. This can be controlled with the OSD.

In WinDAS/WinCAT, the adjustment is made directly to the EEPROM which controls every functional aspect of the monitor and it is a global adjustment of each color band and gun at the monitor's four white balance reference standard points (D50, D65, D93 and sRGB).

The difference is that the OSD adjustment can be wiped out if you hit the "reset" button and/or you engage the "image restore" function. The adjustment made in WinDAS/WinCAT reside on the unit's EEPROM and can only be changed/altered/wiped out via WinDAS/WinCAT.

Hope this helps...

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!

Yep, this makes sense. My plan is to only use the expert control settings with a D65 target, so I don't have to worry about calibrating the other presets, such as D50, D90, and sRGB. I also consider it important to recalibrate from scratch every time I do an image restore.

btw here are the greyscale results from my last calibration using only OSD: The purple line indicates the delta E's. This was using a DTP-94 colorimeter, and with the anti-glare on, and without any G2 voltage adjustment. I believe the brightness and contrast were at 24/86.

My next goal is to invest in some better equipment (I may buy a mid-range colorimeter and profile it against a top range spectrophotometer), remove the antiglare, and adjust the G2 voltage before doing this again, so that I can get the proper black and white levels at 50/85 brightness/contrast. I have a couple spare fw900's, one of which I will experiment on using WinDAS before taking the leap with my "mint condition" one.

413d4396_fc5g6g.png
 

Meeho

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Aug 16, 2010
Messages
5,404
btw here are the greyscale results from my last calibration using only OSD: The purple line indicates the delta E's. This was using a DTP-94 colorimeter, and with the anti-glare on, and without any G2 voltage adjustment. I believe the brightness and contrast were at 24/86.

What are your gain/bias settings and could you please post an image of your gamma?


Also, WinDAS calibration won't necessarily give you good results if your monitor is not in perfect condition: http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1039082343&postcount=8491
 
Last edited:

spacediver

2[H]4U
Joined
Mar 14, 2013
Messages
2,681
I've long since screwed up that calibration - I'm due for another one very soon, just need to sort a few things out, so my current OSD settings won't reflect those results. More importantly, my particular gain bias settings are geared towards my particular unit. If you were to replicate those settings, you'd probably end up with very different results.

Here is the gamma info. Keep in mind I cheated a little. I boosted my vid card gamma by about 9 percent to reach the 2.4 target. In the bottom graph, the white dotted line indicates the 2.4 target.

k3xj88.png


qqocb6.png
 

Meeho

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Aug 16, 2010
Messages
5,404
I know I can't replicate the settings, I would just like to compare them.
 

LAGRUNAUER

Gawd
Joined
Dec 7, 2006
Messages
745
What are your gain/bias settings and could you please post an image of your gamma?


Also, WinDAS calibration won't necessarily give you good results if your monitor is not in perfect condition: http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1039082343&postcount=8491

That is correct! The tube integrity must be checked before any calibrations and adjustments are made. Any faults of the CRT and its internal components will affect the image quality and the results, and some instances the WinDAS/WinCAT process will not work. A few examples: bad guns, low emission, tube shorts, faulty transistors, faulty FBT, faulty PSU, etc.. We run a full diagnose before we perform Sony factory adjustments on the units from our customers. It is included as part of the service.

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!
 

LAGRUNAUER

Gawd
Joined
Dec 7, 2006
Messages
745
Yep, this makes sense. My plan is to only use the expert control settings with a D65 target, so I don't have to worry about calibrating the other presets, such as D50, D90, and sRGB. I also consider it important to recalibrate from scratch every time I do an image restore.

btw here are the greyscale results from my last calibration using only OSD: The purple line indicates the delta E's. This was using a DTP-94 colorimeter, and with the anti-glare on, and without any G2 voltage adjustment. I believe the brightness and contrast were at 24/86.

My next goal is to invest in some better equipment (I may buy a mid-range colorimeter and profile it against a top range spectrophotometer), remove the antiglare, and adjust the G2 voltage before doing this again, so that I can get the proper black and white levels at 50/85 brightness/contrast. I have a couple spare fw900's, one of which I will experiment on using WinDAS before taking the leap with my "mint condition" one.

413d4396_fc5g6g.png

We tried running the software with a DTP-94 to compare results of a recently WinDAS/WinCAT calibrated GDM-FW900 unit, and the software will not recognize the colorimeter. It gives an error message about a missing DLL.

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!
 

spacediver

2[H]4U
Joined
Mar 14, 2013
Messages
2,681
We tried running the software with a DTP-94 to compare results of a recently WinDAS/WinCAT calibrated GDM-FW900 unit, and the software will not recognize the colorimeter. It gives an error message about a missing DLL.

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!

u mean the WinDAS/WinCAT software? Did you test to see whether the DTP-94 worked in another software environment? The only way I got it to work was with the argyll drivers that HCFR uses. It seems that at least with this colorimeter, you need different drivers depending on what calibration software you use (I think).
 

LAGRUNAUER

Gawd
Joined
Dec 7, 2006
Messages
745
u mean the WinDAS/WinCAT software? Did you test to see whether the DTP-94 worked in another software environment? The only way I got it to work was with the argyll drivers that HCFR uses. It seems that at least with this colorimeter, you need different drivers depending on what calibration software you use (I think).

No... The HCFR software...
 

sadbuttrue

Gawd
Joined
Feb 16, 2008
Messages
519
Mine has just developed the ghosting issue - where lit phosphors are repeated very dimly to the right with a gap between each repetition, visibly stopping after 2 inches or when another lit phosphor appears. This is not ghosting caused by a cable or interference. If I keep the temperature below 20c and relative humidity below 50% the ghosting is almost gone. Something inside the monitor is unhappy with high temps/high humidity.

Example:
a a a a

What needs replacing/fixing?
 
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