2013 PC Gamer Top 100 (of all time)

Yea it is, these games are selling for ridiculously low prices. If Perfect Dark has the player base and "nostalgia" to sell for a higher price it would.

I agree in the past it was a social thing, but it isn't like the remakes are the same game. Usually they are updated with added features.

People aren't playing Perfect Dark anymore because it is an inferior experience and something their friends don't play.

Hence why gaming is mostly generational. Not saying Perfect Dark isn't a good game, it was...15 years ago.

I see the point you are making but when you make a top 100 games of all time list leaving out games that where the greatest of their time seems wrong.

To use the awful car analogy. Pretty much even the worst cars today are better than the best 60 years ago but if not for those cars 60 years ago where would we be today? All the hard work and innovation coupled with what has been learned from those vehicles is why we have what we have now.
 
Sure, the majority is always going to be OK with mid level goods. I don't think that is the meat of the topic, though. Many of the titles on the list are very niche games. Some of them didn't even sell well.
 
If I mentioned that sentence to someone like my wife or a "casual" they aren't going to care.
The consoles certainly do a good job of playing games for those who aren't terribly particular about visual fidelity, lower-latency input or playing with different types of input on different types of outputs.
If this requires further repetition, you'll need to allow me time to get my hammer.
 
No crap, someone who doesn't probably doesn't consider themselves a PC Gamer probably wouldn't care. Last time I checked your average PvZ or Famville player doesn't spend a lot of time on [H].



If you really believe this, then why do companies even exist to cater to certain aspects of the market. Why does Lamborghini continue to produce cars if the majority of people aren't going to be able to afford one? Why do Ford, Toyota, and Honda pour so much money into R&D and marketing.

I think you're beginning to believe your own BS at this point...

You mad bro?

I already stated in a previous reply that Lamborghini and Ferrari cater to that market. However the market is small. I also went into how those companies are starting to design cars outside of their core product line. Would you like me to link you some examples, some non BS ones, like the Ferrari FF and Porsche Ceyenne S.

As far as the casuals not spending time on [H] that is true, but how often do you see a game developer who is making the new Fallout game or some shit on Hardforums? They aren't you know why? Because they aren't developing a game for 10 percent of the gaming market.
 
Let me put it this way, I see "top 10 best xbox games" on sites like gaming bolt blah blah blah but I rarely see threads for them. I could be wrong, I just think it is dumb that people are getting bent out of shape.

Personally I can't believe PC Gaming is still even in publication due to the fact that pretty much all publications are extinct.

It's because most console gamers can't figure out how to post on forums from their xbox. :p

But, to be serious; the console game flame wars are much worse than the relevant PC ones. Just look at how hard people shit themselves over console specs that weren't even confirmed. That's not even taking into account the shit talk when it comes to whose platform exclusives are better.
 
If this requires further repetition, you'll need to allow me time to get my hammer.

Not really because my wife doesn't even have a console, nor do a lot of people.

It isn't hard for people to get on steam or amazon, buy a game click the install button and not fuck with the settings because they don't care.

That is the point I was getting at. Its not like people playing WoW and shit are tweaking all these graphically settings in order to play, some people are just installing and playing the games they want to play. They could give a shit less about visual fidelity.

Your example ignores the 10s to 100s of games that exist on PC that are not available any where else.
 
Money. if you said to basically any one, "you can either have the prius or a Austin Martin db9 for free," basically no one would take the prius. Given a choice almost every one will choose comfort,style,and power over mediocrity. But it comes down to fiscal availability. most people can't afford to spend that kind of money. only enthusiasts and people that are well off actualy buy them.
 
It's because most console gamers can't figure out how to post on forums from their xbox. :p

But, to be serious; the console game flame wars are much worse than the relevant PC ones. Just look at how hard people shit themselves over console specs that weren't even confirmed. That's not even taking into account the shit talk when it comes to whose platform exclusives are better.

That is true.
 
Heading out to the tool shed. Back in a minute.

You could just address what you don't actually get about what I just said?

I will sum up my point in one sentence, there are people who play PC games that really don't give two shits about visual quality and they play the same games I do.
 
Money. if you said to basically any one, "you can either have the prius or a Austin Martin db9 for free," basically no one would take the prius. Given a choice almost every one will choose comfort,style,and power over mediocrity. But it comes down to fiscal availability. most people can't afford to spend that kind of money. only enthusiasts and people that are well off actualy buy them.

I would still take the Prius, pretty hard to get a car seat in something like a DB9.
 
As far as the casuals not spending time on [H] that is true, but how often do you see a game developer who is making the new Fallout game or some shit on Hardforums? They aren't you know why? Because they aren't developing a game for 10 percent of the gaming market.

I actually talk to quite a few devs on niche forums these days. Quite a few of them are doing it because they love it, not just because it is a paycheck. This means they are often passionate about the same subject. Even ones that don't post still read feedback on sites, even this site.

Fuck, the most niche and hardcore gaming site out there has the largest active dev community outside of groomed social sites like BSN.
 
I actually talk to quite a few devs on niche forums these days. Quite a few of them are doing it because they love it, not just because it is a paycheck. This means they are often passionate about the same subject. Even ones that don't post still read feedback on sites, even this site.

Fuck, the most niche and hardcore gaming site out there has the largest active dev community outside of groomed social sites like BSN.

I see that point, however PC gaming is more casual now than what it was 15 years ago when it was just mostly people who were in a minority who knew how to play and install games on their computer.

Games are more expensive today and therefore you have developers developing to "all" of the market.

Just look at games like WoW and why you haven't seen another game like EVE or Everquest because at its peak Everquest was a 500k sub and a game like EVE is so much smaller. WoW is a 10 million global game.

When you are developing the next "Fallout" you are probably hoping there is 2-3 million out there that will buy it. Those "hardcore" people out there with kids and a family now aren't putting in 10 hours a day to play those games.

That is the point I am trying to make. Yea you might see some hardcore features in games, but also a lot aimed at casuals.
 
I would still take the Prius, pretty hard to get a car seat in something like a DB9.

now your just being argumentative pick any other badass car that you can fit a car seat. would you still pick the prius. like that really ugly 4 door porche.
 
I see that point, however PC gaming is more casual now than what it was 15 years ago when it was just mostly people who were in a minority who knew how to play and install games on their computer.

Games are more expensive today and therefore you have developers developing to "all" of the market.

Just look at games like WoW and why you haven't seen another game like EVE or Everquest because at its peak Everquest was a 500k sub and a game like EVE is so much smaller. WoW is a 10 million global game.

When you are developing the next "Fallout" you are probably hoping there is 2-3 million out there that will buy it. Those "hardcore" people out there with kids and a family now aren't putting in 10 hours a day to play those games.

That is the point I am trying to make. Yea you might see some hardcore features in games, but also a lot aimed at casuals.


Sure, there are more casual players on this platform these days. I think rather than taking over the market, the market just grew. We are starting to see sales figures for niche games that never would have been made public before, and quite a few of them are doing very well.

I mean, in today's terms, we would call Everquest a failure. In reality, that game made SOE a great deal of money. So much so that it's still quite lucrative to keep those servers running and keep cranking out new content.

I think some of the AAA budgets ran away and created this sense that we need to sell 10 million copies of a game to be considered a success. This is more of a problem with the way games are marketed and published than anything else. The idea that every game needs an AAA budget to be worth your time is laughable. Fuck, casuals don't even care.
 
now your just being argumentative pick any other badass car that you can fit a car seat. would you still pick the prius. like that really ugly 4 door porche.

If you didn't have to spend gas on it, insurance, worry about cost than yea I would. But your example could be used for anything. You are trying to compare something like a Prius which you consider to be the worst car for driving to something like a DB9 to which you consider it to be the "best" and fastest car.

Now lets compare apples to apples. If my wife came up to me with her laptop and I said "hey money no object would you accept the best computer ever" without hesitation she would say yes.

Then when I showed up tomorrow with a 20 inch tower, with 5 fans, 2 video cards or something looking like it was out of future she would probably be like "ummm I want my old laptop back, it was easier portable etc".

I just gave her the best PC according to what I felt like the best PC should be. She doesn't care about video quality. She probably just wanted an update of her laptop.

It doesn't have to be a PC. I could have given her a Alienware 17 inch laptop or something.

Point is she doesn't care about "graphics fidelity".

Same with your car example she wouldn't take even a "badass Porsche" because the Prius is a small, simple, hatchback that caters and fits many peoples lives money aside.
 
Sure, there are more casual players on this platform these days. I think rather than taking over the market, the market just grew. We are starting to see sales figures for niche games that never would have been made public before, and quite a few of them are doing very well.

I mean, in today's terms, we would call Everquest a failure. In reality, that game made SOE a great deal of money. So much so that it's still quite lucrative to keep those servers running and keep cranking out new content.

I think some of the AAA budgets ran away and created this sense that we need to sell 10 million copies of a game to be considered a success. This is more of a problem with the way games are marketed and published than anything else. The idea that every game needs an AAA budget to be worth your time is laughable. Fuck, casuals don't even care.

I agree and yea Everquest was a success, but like you said in terms of today it would be a failure. TOR is a perfect example. EVE still makes money and only 20k people play that, however if EVE disappeared tomorrow it probably wouldn't impact video gaming that much.

Hell there lots of MMOs with people (galaxies) that just close up shop. If WoW failed tomorrow that would be fucking huge!

I still think games do have to content with AAA budgets. I think non AAA games are reserved for something like an indie PC game, a phone app or Xbox Live Arcade, but if you want to design an RPG you play to put out there on disk you better have voice acting, cut scenes the works. That is the standard we are at.
 
hey look another 'best games' list that everyone disagrees with. surprise!
 
I agree and yea Everquest was a success, but like you said in terms of today it would be a failure. TOR is a perfect example. EVE still makes money and only 20k people play that, however if EVE disappeared tomorrow it probably wouldn't impact video gaming that much.

Hell there lots of MMOs with people (galaxies) that just close up shop. If WoW failed tomorrow that would be fucking huge!

I still think games do have to content with AAA budgets. I think non AAA games are reserved for something like an indie PC game, a phone app or Xbox Live Arcade, but if you want to design an RPG you play to put out there on disk you better have voice acting, cut scenes the works. That is the standard we are at.

Where the heck do you pull 20k for Eve? The game is over 500k subs currently and is one of the few/only MMO's that has a growing subscription rate instead of declining one.
 
I said nothing to the contrary.

You said this:

The consoles certainly do a good job of playing games for those who aren't terribly particular about visual fidelity, lower-latency input or playing with different types of input on different types of outputs. They cater to a different market, yes. They're still racing around the same track (playing the same games) that the PC is, though: they just aren't executing on it nearly as well.

Pretty much a contrary point in my eyes.

I disagreed that people who care about visual quality are only console gamers you put that out there to which you still haven't agreed or disagreed with my point. After I challenged you on that point you said "going out to some stupid ass woodshed"

As far as the executing it as well is subjective. If the goal is just get around the track like you said then a Kia or a Ferrari will do the same thing, if it is to have the "fastest lap time" than yea the Ferrari will win.

However PC gaming isn't like that today. Many games run on a number of different hardware a point you continue to ignore.
 
Where the heck do you pull 20k for Eve? The game is over 500k subs currently and is one of the few/only MMO's that has a growing subscription rate instead of declining one.

You are correct sorry.
 
I think non AAA games are reserved for something like an indie PC game, a phone app or Xbox Live Arcade, but if you want to design an RPG you play to put out there on disk you better have voice acting, cut scenes the works. That is the standard we are at.

I don't think we are, at least not in the scale most people believe. I think there is such a huge resurgence of interest in the school RPG market that some of the bigger titles are getting looked over in favor of the smaller and more focused projects. Some really large AAA titles are going to stand out, of course, but often these AAA features come at the expense of other features we have become accustomed to in the cRPG field.

It also helps that it is becoming easier and easier for devs to get their games published without being locked down by draconian publisher contracts. I think we are at a point where AAA means less than it did before, at least when it comes down to overall consumer satisfaction.
 
I don't even know what we are arguing about any more lol
Helicopters.

I disagreed that people who care about visual quality are only console gamers you put that out there to which you still haven't agreed or disagreed with my point.
Did you mean to say "PC gamers" here? The sentence doesn't appear to make sense otherwise.

As far as the executing it as well is subjective. If the goal is just get around the track like you said then a Kia or a Ferrari will do the same thing, if it is to have the "fastest lap time" than yea the Ferrari will win.
The point was not so much about the differential between "Kia" and "Ferrari" as it was between "not fast car" (of which a Rio is an example) and "fast car". As I said, the crème de la crème, in PC terms, is not the low-end or mid-range hardware: it's the high-end hardware. By definition, it is the highest-end. The people who care very deeply about some of the things I listed do bring the best gear to the party to "set the best lap times", and it's the availability of that gear that's the strength of the platform.

People who want their PCs to execute cross-platform games only as well as consoles can do that, but there exists that potential to execute them much more spectacularly on a PC.
 
Helicopters.


Did you mean to say "PC gamers" here? The sentence doesn't appear to make sense otherwise.


The point was not so much about the differential between "Kia" and "Ferrari" as it was between "not fast car" (of which a Rio is an example) and "fast car". As I said, the crème de la crème, in PC terms, is not the low-end or mid-range hardware: it's the high-end hardware. By definition, it is the highest-end. The people who care very deeply about some of the things I listed do bring the best gear to the party to "set the best lap times", and it's the availability of that gear that's the strength of the platform.

People who want their PCs to execute cross-platform games only as well as consoles can do that, but there exists that potential to execute them much more spectacularly on a PC.

to the top part yes, sorry about that.

bottom part:

I got the analogy. You didn't have to explain it and yes there are still people who "care deeply" about the highest end, but its a minority and further more you have more and more games coming out that can run on a range of different hardware. Basically the entry level hardware is at a point where it can run a lot of the most popular games.

Not to mention games are pretty much coded to auto adjust settings all that jazz and give the player the easiest out of box experience.

For those people which I consider a strong majority they just want to play their games. You can't tell me there are 10 million WoW players and the majority is running something like 400 dollar graphics cards. Same with minecraft etc.

These are the most popular games and in their eyes its not like they are having a "different" experience they are playing the same game in a lessor quality setting because to them they don't care as much.
 
So are you saying that most people don't care about the visual quality of the games they play?
 
So are you saying that most people don't care about the visual quality of the games they play?

At least for some of the more popular games on the platform

Of the PC market I am saying it grew to a point to where you have a number of those people who really don't care about visual quality and just want to play a game out of the box.
 
So are you saying that most people don't care about the visual quality of the games they play?

Considering that games like minecraft and WoW can absolutely dominate sales and lets look at how long the Wii dominated the other consoles its pretty clear to anyone who actually pays attention that the average gamer dont give 2 shits about graphics.
 
Of the PC market I am saying it grew to a point to where you have a number of those people who really don't care about visual quality and just want to play a game out of the box.

I won't argue this point, as I think you're correct, for the most part.

There have always been casual games and gamers on PC, it's where gaming started. I remember one of my aunts was so big into Myst she filled up the entire journal, complete with pictures, on how to beat all the puzzles.

A surge in casual players isn't what is killing PC gaming, it is publishers licking the boots of console profits.

PC and Console Games used to be very different, especially in terms of genre. You'll never see a cRPG (NOT Skyrim) or serious Military Hardware Simulator (NOT Ace Combat) on a console.

Because you'll never see a cRPG or Flight Sim on a console, publishers aren't willing to make them, something we both agree on. Luckily, there are some companies still producing, marketing, and selling them, but the selection is very limited.

It's because of this that I gripe, and will continue to gripe, until they pry the mouse and keyboard from my cold, dead hands.
 
I won't argue this point, as I think you're correct, for the most part.

There have always been casual games and gamers on PC, it's where gaming started. I remember one of my aunts was so big into Myst she filled up the entire journal, complete with pictures, on how to beat all the puzzles.

A surge in casual players isn't what is killing PC gaming, it is publishers licking the boots of console profits.

PC and Console Games used to be very different, especially in terms of genre. You'll never see a cRPG (NOT Skyrim) or serious Military Hardware Simulator (NOT Ace Combat) on a console.

Because you'll never see a cRPG or Flight Sim on a console, publishers aren't willing to make them, something we both agree on. Luckily, there are some companies still producing, marketing, and selling them, but the selection is very limited.

It's because of this that I gripe, and will continue to gripe, until they pry the mouse and keyboard from my cold, dead hands.

I don't think you see cRPG and Flight Sims on consoles because for the most part that don't sell well compared to their "rare" computer counterparts. You still see RPGs on PC, there are a shit load. F2P, Full Games etc. Same with MMOs.

There are more games that I play now that are only available on PC, however none of them require more than what runs on my ~50 dollar market value 3 year old 5850.

Other than Myst and solitaire I can't think of what else from 10 years ago. When I think of games today here is the list of casual household names I think of:

Sims
World of Warcraft
League of Legends
Diablo 3

That is just off the top of my head.
 
Graphics are the last thing that cross my mind when I think of games.

Could be because I'm old school and SteelCore....I have many trophies in my mental gaming catalog...Hardest difficulty perfect ending in super street fighter, beating hellfire, Conquering Kid Chameleon. FF1 white mage challenge, ect...
 
Graphics are the last thing that cross my mind when I think of games.

Could be because I'm old school and SteelCore....I have many trophies in my mental gaming catalog...Hardest difficulty perfect ending in super street fighter, beating hellfire, Conquering Kid Chameleon. FF1 white mage challenge, ect...

Sorry gotta do it:

Cool-Dog-Hey-Cool-story-bro41.jpg
 
UT 2k4 made the list, but UT did not?

They haven't a clue as to what they are talking about.
 
Sorry gotta do it:

Cool-Dog-Hey-Cool-story-bro41.jpg

Graphics are the last thing that cross my mind when I think of games.

Could be because I'm old school and SteelCore....I have many trophies in my mental gaming catalog...Hardest difficulty perfect ending in super street fighter, beating hellfire, Conquering Kid Chameleon. FF1 white mage challenge, ect..

I think I just told it again.
 
STALKER:Call of Pripyat???
Sigh...
Shadow of Chernobyl is one of the pinnacles of PC gaming.
Can you think of a better TRUE pc only fps in the last six years?

I guess I should just be happy they included any Stalker game.
 
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