2012 - A bad year for the PC

Aaron11

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I may be completely wrong, and I freely admit that, in fact, I hope I am.. We'll see in 25 years, but if you do not think our society is in a state of decline, I have three words for you: Honey-Boo-Boo.
I sort of agree that we are in a state of decline, but I don't see what that has to do with a lower demand for PCs.
 

PGHammer

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When did the Q6600 come out? That processor is still more than enough for most people I think that's one of the main reasons why the PC world is in a small slump. People just don't need to upgrade plain and simple.

Q6600 is a seven year old CPU that hasn't even been manufactured for four years - any Q66xx-era CPU (regardless of how many cores it has) is either used or has been sitting on a shelf for *at least* that long.

Is Q66xx relevant today? The surprising answer is *yes* - it most certainly is relevant *as a processor technology*. Where Q6600 (and any CPU of its year) will have issues is that it doesn't support the latest and greatest technologies in a cost-effective way. If you want or need support for any of the latest and greatest technologies in computing, Q6600 is simply too old to do so due to the CPU's support structure mostly - not due to any fault of the CPU itself.

Here's a common mATX motherboard of today that supports Q6600:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813138315

One problem you will notice right off is that it only supports two DIMM sockets (though it does support DDR3) - this is a limitation in the support structure commonplace in motherboards of the era.

Here's an example of the same range of price, but supporting LGA1155 (I chose the same motherboard manufacturer, same form-factor, and even the same range of price, to make this as close as possible to apples-to-apples)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813138332

Note that again the same two-DIMM limitation rears its ugly head - however, further digging shows that you CAN get higher DIMM capacity in the form-factor, but you WILL pay more for it. Such is not really an option for LGA775, however. Basically, if you want/need better, be prepared to spend some money. The decision that a lot of folks (and companies) are making, however, is to hold off - either temporarily or permanently - despite pricing for upgrading componentry (BYOPC) being incredibly cheap. However, even BYOPC is *still* seen as being incredibly complicated and complex, even though it's easier than it was even a mere five years ago - let alone ten years ago (2002) or when I did my first upgrade to my own PC (1993 - adding a CD-ROM drive). Thus it remains easier to justify not spending money than spending money - especially when it's YOUR money.
 

fullvietFX

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Q6600 is a seven year old CPU that hasn't even been manufactured for four years - any Q66xx-era CPU (regardless of how many cores it has) is either used or has been sitting on a shelf for *at least* that long.

Is Q66xx relevant today? The surprising answer is *yes* - it most certainly is relevant *as a processor technology*. Where Q6600 (and any CPU of its year) will have issues is that it doesn't support the latest and greatest technologies in a cost-effective way. If you want or need support for any of the latest and greatest technologies in computing, Q6600 is simply too old to do so due to the CPU's support structure mostly - not due to any fault of the CPU itself.

Here's a common mATX motherboard of today that supports Q6600:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813138315

One problem you will notice right off is that it only supports two DIMM sockets (though it does support DDR3) - this is a limitation in the support structure commonplace in motherboards of the era.

Here's an example of the same range of price, but supporting LGA1155 (I chose the same motherboard manufacturer, same form-factor, and even the same range of price, to make this as close as possible to apples-to-apples)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813138332

Note that again the same two-DIMM limitation rears its ugly head - however, further digging shows that you CAN get higher DIMM capacity in the form-factor, but you WILL pay more for it. Such is not really an option for LGA775, however. Basically, if you want/need better, be prepared to spend some money. The decision that a lot of folks (and companies) are making, however, is to hold off - either temporarily or permanently - despite pricing for upgrading componentry (BYOPC) being incredibly cheap. However, even BYOPC is *still* seen as being incredibly complicated and complex, even though it's easier than it was even a mere five years ago - let alone ten years ago (2002) or when I did my first upgrade to my own PC (1993 - adding a CD-ROM drive). Thus it remains easier to justify not spending money than spending money - especially when it's YOUR money.

I'm just saying when my Athlon XP 2000+ was 7 years old it was absolutely obsolete and could barely do day-to-day tasks. Where as a 7 year old Q6600 is still chugging along fine.
 

PGHammer

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Which is, as much as we as enthusiasts hate it, a greater incentive to stand pat/do nothing.
 

DKrebo87

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I blame neither tablets OR smartphones - if anything, I blame developers.

Look at gaming - the one category of PC software that stresses a computer more than anything else outside of niche applications - it's been on a downward slide since the advent of multiplatform gaming. Result - games are defined by the least powerful platform (which isn't the PC).

If anything, application software, by and large, is worse than even gaming; again, outside of niche applications, how many everyday applications will seriously stress even a dual-core Athlon II?

Lastly, there is the PC operating system du jour - Windows. The real requirements in terms of hardware for a desktop PC haven't changed since Windows Vista, which is two Windows versions (excluding service packs) and five years ago. Outside of my GPU, the entire rest of the contents of my ATX case are of the same era, if not older. Yet I can, and do, run Windows 8 Pro with Media Center on it comfortably, along with a surprisingly large number of mainstream applications and other software. I have no use (or need) for most niche software, and I've worked around the one niche feature (Hyper-V) in Windows 8 that I could take better advantage of with a hardware upgrade. (Most PC users - and probably a not-insignificant number of the [H]orde - are doing the same.) We can run the latest and greatest (supposedly) software on older hardware - therefore, why the rush to upgrade? Horror of horrors, this is the consumer/prosumer space!

The corporate/enterprise space is, if anything, under far greater pressure to not spend money on upgrading the hardware. Let's face facts - the economy is still largely in the commode, and as long as it is, spending on perceived *luxuries* - and, like it or not, new PC hardware is still seen as a luxury, especially in the corporate/enterprise space - is under far greater scrutiny than ever. Therefore, it's far easier to justify not upgrading than upgrading.

This is, in fact, why sales of Windows 8 are below the usual pace - not because of anything directly about Windows 8, but because it's far too easy to justify not upgrading - either hardware or operating system. It's far from a fun thing to realize - in fact, i personally find it galling - however, that is the reality of today.

Meanwhile, on the other side of the same coin we have a lot of PC gamer's to blame. The piracy numbers on PC are astonishing, I'm surprised these developers are releasing PC games at all considering the amount of piracy going on. I think if they can come up with a legitimate solution to combat piracy we would see a difference in the quality of PC game's released, simply because they can confidently put all their efforts into the better hardware knowing they'll be getting real returns.

As far as Windows 8, I think it's suffering more because of how much a success Windows 7 was, whereas with Windows Vista everyone wanted to upgrade ASAP because it was such a mess of an OS. In my opinion that has a lot more to do with sales than the current economy, if there was as great of a need to upgrade from a poor OS we would see the same great sales as Windows 7 with Windows 8.
 
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Tsumi

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Meanwhile, on the other side of the same coin we have a lot of PC gamer's to blame. The piracy numbers on PC are astonishing, I'm surprised these developers are releasing PC games at all considering the amount of piracy going on. I think if they can come up with a legitimate solution to combat piracy we would see a difference in the quality of PC game's released, simply because they can confidently put all their efforts into the better hardware knowing they'll be getting real returns.

As far as Windows 8, I think it's suffering more because of how much a success Windows 7 was, whereas with Windows Vista everyone wanted to upgrade ASAP because it was such a mess of an OS. In my opinion that has a lot more to do with sales than the current economy, if there was as great of a need to upgrade from a poor OS we would see the same great sales as Windows 7 with Windows 8.

A pirated game =/= a lost sale. A pirated game can sometimes equal a sale gained. And piracy isn't as rampant as you make it out to be.

Here's why: many people that pirate games would not have paid for the game regardless of whether or not they could pirate it. This is why a pirated game =/= a lost sale.

Some people pirate a game to try it out, and if they enjoy it, they will buy it. If they did not have the chance to try out the game and enjoy it, they would not have bought it. This is why sometimes a pirated game = sale gained.

The best way to combat piracy? Make the game enjoyable. Make it have a good multiplayer experience, since multiplayer can only be accessed with legitimate keys, and have sales on it as time goes by. Not everyone is willing to buy a game at $60, but a lot more are willing to buy it at $20 or less.

And there have been legitimate anti-piracy measures taken. Some of these measures actually backfire and push people away from a game, resulting in lost sales.

Yes, software should be written to take full advantage of hardware, but sometimes it's not possible. Efficiency of the code is also key, just look at Crysis and Crysis Warhead. Crysis was more demanding, yet it looked worse.
 

squad

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More people are going for apple products because of their marketing team. If people look through all that it's just an overprice product. People are buying more IPADS and IPHONES then anything else.
 
D

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Meanwhile, on the other side of the same coin we have a lot of PC gamer's to blame. The piracy numbers on PC are astonishing, I'm surprised these developers are releasing PC games at all considering the amount of piracy going on. I think if they can come up with a legitimate solution to combat piracy we would see a difference in the quality of PC game's released, simply because they can confidently put all their efforts into the better hardware knowing they'll be getting real returns.

As far as Windows 8, I think it's suffering more because of how much a success Windows 7 was, whereas with Windows Vista everyone wanted to upgrade ASAP because it was such a mess of an OS. In my opinion that has a lot more to do with sales than the current economy, if there was as great of a need to upgrade from a poor OS we would see the same great sales as Windows 7 with Windows 8.

You must work for Ubisoft.
 

Uberbob102000

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More people are going for apple products because of their marketing team. If people look through all that it's just an overprice product. People are buying more IPADS and IPHONES then anything else.

I do think this is true to an extent, but on the other hand Apple makes a really high quality piece of hardware. It's pretty damn hard to find a decent PC laptop from anyone other than Lenovo or Dell's business lines. I bought an HP dv6t Quad edition as I got a good deal on it and less than 1 year later, it's missing a key on the keyboard because the metal holding it was apparently made from whimsy and the battery is, for all intents and purposes, pretty much useless already.

On the other hand, the several year old MBPs my friends have are still going strong with a couple dents/scratches.
 

Flyboat

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But I do agree with jwcalla, my dad is a prime example, he only uses what he needs so he doesnt upgrade his laptops and pc's all that often.

Most of users are like that. If MS release office suite for iPad, I can place my PC in the basement.
 

Verass

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A pirated game =/= a lost sale. A pirated game can sometimes equal a sale gained. And piracy isn't as rampant as you make it out to be.

Here's why: many people that pirate games would not have paid for the game regardless of whether or not they could pirate it. This is why a pirated game =/= a lost sale.

Some people pirate a game to try it out, and if they enjoy it, they will buy it. If they did not have the chance to try out the game and enjoy it, they would not have bought it. This is why sometimes a pirated game = sale gained.

The best way to combat piracy? Make the game enjoyable. Make it have a good multiplayer experience, since multiplayer can only be accessed with legitimate keys, and have sales on it as time goes by. Not everyone is willing to buy a game at $60, but a lot more are willing to buy it at $20 or less.

-snip-

I will attest to that, I used to pirate games before buying into them, for ex when Might and Magic heroes 6 came out I was hesitant to buy it, so I dl'd it, tried it, like it and then bought it. But now I just watch a few game play videos on youtube.

As for 20$ games I would have to disagree, I dont believe a 20$ game will be good, quiet frankly I'd think it would be cheaply made. I'd pay like 40-45$ via Steam for a game with no problem ( 40$ cuz I dont think paying full price for a digital copy is fair)
 

HDriscoll

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I don't think it's the end of the PC, at least not for me. You are not going to replace my three 22" displays with a tablet. Yes, I'm a PC gamer. No, I don't pirate software.

I could see where a tablet will be useful in some situations. But is the processing power that great where people will abandon their PC for a more mobile solution?
 

Hagrid

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I don't think it's the end of the PC, at least not for me. You are not going to replace my three 22" displays with a tablet. Yes, I'm a PC gamer. No, I don't pirate software.

I could see where a tablet will be useful in some situations. But is the processing power that great where people will abandon their PC for a more mobile solution?

Maybe a laptop, but I cant see a tablet. I like the idea of the Surface with the separate keyboard/pointing device, but its really just for basic stuff.(I cant stand smudging and smearing my screen!)
Laptops are getting alot more powerful so they can take over for desktop PC's and of course tablets.
The screen size is not like your desktop, but its alot more portable and able to do everything.
I wouldnt replace my desktop with a laptop, but some/alot might.

The other reason as already been said is that the amount of power for most users, is already overkill. An CPU OC to 4.5+ is more then enough for basic users, much less enthusiasts.(2500K/3570K/8350, etc)
 

Tsumi

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I will attest to that, I used to pirate games before buying into them, for ex when Might and Magic heroes 6 came out I was hesitant to buy it, so I dl'd it, tried it, like it and then bought it. But now I just watch a few game play videos on youtube.

As for 20$ games I would have to disagree, I dont believe a 20$ game will be good, quiet frankly I'd think it would be cheaply made. I'd pay like 40-45$ via Steam for a game with no problem ( 40$ cuz I dont think paying full price for a digital copy is fair)

There are buyers at many different price points. I personally would never spend $60 or even $40 on a game, unless it was really good. If it's a Steam game, I generally wait for the $5 or $10 sales. I only just recently bought Starcraft 2 because Blizzard was offering it for $20.
 

PGHammer

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Meanwhile, on the other side of the same coin we have a lot of PC gamer's to blame. The piracy numbers on PC are astonishing, I'm surprised these developers are releasing PC games at all considering the amount of piracy going on. I think if they can come up with a legitimate solution to combat piracy we would see a difference in the quality of PC game's released, simply because they can confidently put all their efforts into the better hardware knowing they'll be getting real returns.

As far as Windows 8, I think it's suffering more because of how much a success Windows 7 was, whereas with Windows Vista everyone wanted to upgrade ASAP because it was such a mess of an OS. In my opinion that has a lot more to do with sales than the current economy, if there was as great of a need to upgrade from a poor OS we would see the same great sales as Windows 7 with Windows 8.

Actually, we're both incorrect - try *forty million Windows 8 licenses* since launch. That is a faster run rate than Windows 7 - or any other version of Windows.

And not only is that despite a craptastic economy, a successful Windows 7 ahead of it (which will still be supported for another eight years), and the Attack of the Punditocracy, it is despite a northeastern United States still recovering from Sandy sitting on them *and* late shipments of hardware with Windows 8 preinstalled.

The Cycle Is Officially Broken.
 

Iching

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I dislike the Tablet "revolution". Tablets are "OK" for what people want these days... Facebook and other mindless social media. I dislike Tablets in the same way I disliked the Nintendo NES. The NES pulled kids away from real computers like the Commodore 64, and the Apple II. Even really great computers like the Commodore Amiga and Atari ST failed. I worked in a software/game store in the late 80's, and I saw first hand the computer shelves getting smaller and the Nintendo shelves getting bigger. Eventually, Commodore and Atari computers were no more. Kids no longer had to learn computer skills to play a game, or had the resources available to type reports or actually learn something useful. The home PC went through a very dark period between the death of Commodore and birth of Internet. The thing about this dark time on our horizon is what if anything will bring a PC back to being a necessity? If a majority of people only care about social media, will the ones that are left be enough to support the market? When I owned my Atari ST, toward the end of its life, I had to drive for an hour just to get to a store that carried software for it, and most of that was imported from Europe. I see this latest trend as more dangerous to society as Facebook and such grows, collective intelligence seems to decline. The movie Idiocracy really should be viewed by anyone who cares where we are going as a species.


You are absolutely correct. I work for one of the corporations and it is a race to the bottom in order to increase the profits. Sadly, people are getting dumber.
 

Iching

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You are absolutely correct. I work for one of the corporations and it is a race to the bottom in order to increase the profits. Sadly, people are getting dumber.

EDIT: Unlike consoles/tablets/phones etc. you can do a lot more on a PC or a laptop without having to use Apple/Google store. You can install software from different sources without any limitations, change your hardware as much as you want etc. When you buy a tablet you are literally ...... since you have to buy a newer version next time. Therefore companies make more money and have more control over an individual who is perceived as a mere consumer.
 

Tsumi

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EDIT: Unlike consoles/tablets/phones etc. you can do a lot more on a PC or a laptop without having to use Apple/Google store. You can install software from different sources without any limitations, change your hardware as much as you want etc. When you buy a tablet you are literally ...... since you have to buy a newer version next time. Therefore companies make more money and have more control over an individual who is perceived as a mere consumer.

Which is completely not the case with Windows x86 tablets.
 

Fahim

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Year to date stock value:

AMD: -64.26%
Intel: -16.95%
HP: -48.45%
Dell: -38.48%
Microsoft: +2.59%

http://community.nasdaq.com/News/2012-11/2012-the-year-the-pc-died.aspx?storyid=191244

Are we seeing a shift in the PC Market? I blame tablets and smartphones...

YTD in my opinion shouldn't represent the PC industry as a whole. There are so many factors that go into Stock valuation that also do not tell the tale of whether the industry is up or down. Could be because one company could have made a huge investment in R&D this year and will not see the results for 2 or 3 years in the future.

People write these sensational stories for news outlets to get 5 cents per hit.

as this dude has I just find it annoying, but still serves it's function to spark conversation, but for sure should not come to any conclusions.

A better analysis would be to take a 10 to 25 year trend line of monthly or quarterly stock price data, looks at the peaks and the declines and see what caused those peaks, and what those declines. It is probably in line with Microsoft releasing new OS or major break through technologies.

More random thoughts of mine:

I think the technology is maturing, or the industry is slowing down because the consumer cannot keep refreshing their hardware every year, nor do they have a reason to. Especially during a recession. And I find it annoying to keep changing computers. Tables and Smartphones are for sure competing for what ever little disposable dollars people have. We are so damn saturated with ipads, kindles, netbooks, laptops, desktops and smartphones in each households, all of which have just been accumulated over the past 3 years.

Windows 8 just came out and the industry was probably making some big bets that it would help the hardware side in a major way, just like when Vista and Win7 came out. but this time. But my guess is Windows 8 will probably do very little to help these numbers, if anything it will bring them down even more but missing expectations.
 

yelsewshane

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What you see is decline of intelligent people that can't understand computers in the usa because most usa people are very ignorant and not educated. No wonder many usa people walk around with a plastic baby sucker in the mouth they are ignorant and not educated in general. Granted some are but for the most part it's sad that the usa ranks like number 40 in education scores globe score. Oh well like usa is the modern day rome it will fall like rome did from the inside with corruption from your elected leaders.
 

pojut

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Both my wife and I have a gaming PC, a decent 2-3 year old laptop, and a tablet (she a 16GB 4th-gen iPad, myself a 32GB Touchpad running CM9.) Each serves its own purpose:

- The gaming PC usage is obvious. We use them to game. Dur-hey.
- The laptops are used while traveling, or when going to a LAN to play a less-than-hardware-taxing game (Civilization IV, Freelancer, BALDUR'S GATE ENHANCED EDITION OMFG IT COMES OUT TODAY, etc.)
- The tablets are used while we watch Netflix (which we do far too much of), or if we're casually heading over to a friend's house to hang out and watch bad horror movies, MST3K-style.

Now, granted, our situation is a little unique. I know everyone doesn't have access to or can afford to have all three, but if you can, I highly suggest that you do. Having all three options has allowed us to focus on getting the best possible experience based on what we're doing, and we both freakin' love it.
 

yelsewshane

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The reason for PC sales decline is becuase over the last 5-7 years there is no reason to upgrade. Most the games that come out are simply console ports and don't require better hardware to run them; and as far as normal usage for home office or internet there is not need to upgrade either. What sucks is I use my computer for work and play and would like to have on the play side better games for the PC. Nowdays though 90% of all the new generation bubble heads just want a console to play games and could care less about the other use on the business side that computers do. No wonder most teens nowdays are fat and lazy hehe oh well enough said just my 2 cent's on the subject.
 
D

Deleted member 88227

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The reason for PC sales decline is becuase over the last 5-7 years there is no reason to upgrade. Most the games that come out are simply console ports and don't require better hardware to run them; and as far as normal usage for home office or internet there is not need to upgrade either. What sucks is I use my computer for work and play and would like to have on the play side better games for the PC. Nowdays though 90% of all the new generation bubble heads just want a console to play games and could care less about the other use on the business side that computers do. No wonder most teens nowdays are fat and lazy hehe oh well enough said just my 2 cent's on the subject.

So playing on a PC instead of a console means you'll lose weight?
 

Hagrid

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So playing on a PC instead of a console means you'll lose weight?

Well kinda... :)

The wii can help curb a few lbs.
I dont play consoles, except the wii, but its not the same games or types of games so....
 
D

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Well kinda... :)

The wii can help curb a few lbs.
I dont play consoles, except the wii, but its not the same games or types of games so....

Huh?

I said playing on a PC will make you lose weight, not consoles. Since that's what the person I quoted implied stating that those "bubble head console teens" are fat because they play consoles, but if they played PCs....
 

Matthew Kane

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The future for both Intel and especially AMD does not look well if mobile computing expands with Qualcomm taking the lead.
 
D

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The future for both Intel and especially AMD does not look well if mobile computing expands with Qualcomm taking the lead.

I don't see the problem with mobile computing. People who play games on phones aren't always the same people who would have bought a PC/Console game in the first place; therefore it's not a loss sale for PC/Console gaming or the hardware to power those games.

People who play PC/Console are still going to play the PC/Console. Therefore, if money is to be made now, then money will there to be made then just like it has in the past.

If anything, Qualcomm becoming so large in the mobile gaming market/computing could potentially start production on Intel/AMD and Console hardware; in which case we'll have more to choose from as a consumer.
 

Matthew Kane

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If anything, Qualcomm becoming so large in the mobile gaming market/computing could potentially start production on Intel/AMD and Console hardware; in which case we'll have more to choose from as a consumer.

I for one don't want this to happen, but hey that's just me, more 'cut-down' options for consumers will not be for everyone.
 

Matthew Kane

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Right. Because competition is bad for the consumer.

Not saying that competition will be bad, I just don't want desktop processors replaced by possibly something inferior from Qualcomm's table. Or Intel/AMD cut off their low-mid range line of products and only offer high-end stuff because price for performance Qualcomm offer's something better at the low end of the price point.
 
D

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Not saying that competition will be bad, I just don't want desktop processors replaced by possibly something inferior from Qualcomm's table. Or Intel/AMD cut off their low-mid range line of products and only offer high-end stuff because price for performance Qualcomm offer's something better at the low end of the price point.

If it gets replaced, its because the consumer made I happen. Doubt that happens.
 

psy81

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What you see is decline of intelligent people that can't understand computers in the usa because most usa people are very ignorant and not educated. No wonder many usa people walk around with a plastic baby sucker in the mouth they are ignorant and not educated in general. Granted some are but for the most part it's sad that the usa ranks like number 40 in education scores globe score. Oh well like usa is the modern day rome it will fall like rome did from the inside with corruption from your elected leaders.

LOL...so you are saying that the lack of intelligence and superior ignorance "only in USA" is the reason for this slow down in the PC market? LOL...I see...LOL...I see
 

Wixard

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The current doldrums could mostly be explained away by the current economy, but over the long term(5-20 years) I think the terminal replaces the PC.

It looks like shadowrun wasn't too far off the mark, minus the orcs!
 

STrooperTK421

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What you see is decline of intelligent people that can't understand computers in the usa because most usa people are very ignorant and not educated. No wonder many usa people walk around with a plastic baby sucker in the mouth they are ignorant and not educated in general. Granted some are but for the most part it's sad that the usa ranks like number 40 in education scores globe score. Oh well like usa is the modern day rome it will fall like rome did from the inside with corruption from your elected leaders.

You can do us "usa people" all a favor and shut the fuck up. I mean seriously, if you are going to bash us "usa people" on a United States based message board the least you could do is brush up on your lacking (read: shitty) english skills. Not only that bitch, but what you are seeing is a small subset of stupid assholes magnified by our illustrious media and the simple fact is that the USA and the MAJORITY of her people are still better educated and more motivated then whatever shithole you crawled out from.

tl;dr: Go fuck yourself.
 

jwcalla

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You can do us "usa people" all a favor and shut the fuck up. I mean seriously, if you are going to bash us "usa people" on a United States based message board the least you could do is brush up on your lacking (read: shitty) english skills. Not only that bitch, but what you are seeing is a small subset of stupid assholes magnified by our illustrious media and the simple fact is that the USA and the MAJORITY of her people are still better educated and more motivated then whatever shithole you crawled out from.

tl;dr: Go fuck yourself.

That was a very typical American response.

Criticism of the USA is very warranted. We are becoming an incredibly lazy, ignorant and stupid people.

But I agree that these things don't have much to do with declining PC sales.
 

ManofGod

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
12,512
That was a very typical American response.

Criticism of the USA is very warranted. We are becoming an incredibly lazy, ignorant and stupid people.

But I agree that these things don't have much to do with declining PC sales.

Keep this crap in Genmay please, thanks.:rolleyes:
 

STrooperTK421

Limp Gawd
Joined
Oct 8, 2009
Messages
466
That was a very typical American response.

Criticism of the USA is very warranted. We are becoming an incredibly lazy, ignorant and stupid people.

But I agree that these things don't have much to do with declining PC sales.

As I stated, our media likes to magnify the squeaky wheel (the willfully ignorant, the stupid, lazy, etc) and make out like we are "going down the drain". I'm saying that is a false view of the population of the USA and you're part of the problem if you can't figure that out on your own.
 
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