20" Apple Cinema Display V.S. Dell 20" 2005 FPW

Well I've pretty much decided my course of action. The Dell 2005FPW is going back for a full refund and I'm gonna go for the 20" ACD. It's a couple of hundred euro more expensive but from what I've read on other sites it's a sweet monitor, not plagued by backlighting issues. I'm willing to pay a bit more for quality and peace of mind.

Yes it doesn't quite have the same number of features as the 2005 - less inputs, less settings, doesn't rotate, non-adjustable stand. But these things aren't essential while an even backlight is.

I've been to a few Apple hardware discussion boards and there is no sign of any 40+ page topics with people moaning about faults in the monitor, unlike the 2005. In fact it's the 23" ACD which seems to have some issues but I can't afford one of those anyway!

Wish me luck! ;)
 
^^^ good luck.

yea, the apple products aren't plauged by any backlighting issues, and rarely have any dead pixels. you should be good to go. you lucky SOB who has enough money to buy one of these. :p
 
TSS Modder said:
^^^ good luck.

yea, the apple products aren't plauged by any backlighting issues, and rarely have any dead pixels. you should be good to go. you lucky SOB who has enough money to buy one of these. :p
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hehe, well I think the same thing about people who buy the 23" or 30" ACD! They are well and truly out of my price range.
 
Sidane said:
hehe, well I think the same thing about people who buy the 23" or 30" ACD! They are well and truly out of my price range.
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whether theyre out of your price range or not, i still am jealous of anyone w/ a monitor that big. let alone an apple product.

i only have a 17" widescreen LCD (on lappy) and a 17" Dell UltraSharp LCD (connected to lappy.) The dell was all i could afford, and that was only 290$ shipped. that was w/ the Dellf 25% off coupon.
 
Once Dell gets these backlight issues resolved, I would go with the 2005FPW. The Apple's build quality is average but it has better aesthetics IMO. Once Dell gets the backlight issues resolved, the 2005FPW would be much more of a value IMO. The reason Dell is having trouble resolving the said issues is that they don't make any of the monitors. They are basically rebrands of monitors produced OEM for dell. Once Dell gets a grip over the companies responsible for producing the monitors, the issues should disappear like with the Dell 2001FP.

IF you can wait a few months, you could save around 400 dollars by going with the Dell when it is on sale. If it isn't on sale, and you want a monitor immediately, the 150 dollar increase for the 20" ACD is negligible. Know that the dell has many more inputs and OSD options while the ACD has foregone most options in favor of simplicity and "ease of use."
 
yeah i know the 2005 has more features over the ACD and is better value. Things like extra inputs, settings, PIP are all nice features but having used the 2005 for the last few days they aren't really features I can see myself using.

First and foremost i need a high quality picture and consistent colour which the ACD should provide. The two features that I probably will miss are the adjustable stand and 90 degree rotation but I can live without them.

As for Dell fixing the problems with the 2005, hopefully they will but there's no guarantee of that. And if it does it could be 6-12 months from now, I can't wait that long. I'm thinking that the problem with the 2005 comes from the panel being manufactured by one company (LG?) and the bezel being manufactured by another (Benq?) and then Dell sells it. Those are 3 big companies and bringing it all together into a flawless product can't be easy. Likewise going back to the drawing board and fixing a major flaw in the design is no small matter.

Hopefully they will get it sorted because apart from the backlight leakage, it's a great monitor.
 
Mine is pretty much flawless:)
And I doubt it will take 6-12 months. It that span of time they will have already gone to bigger and better things.

Anywho GL with your ACD...they are purdy and stuff I guess.
 
I've seen the Apple 20" in person, and it is a very beautiful monitor. Like you said, I don't think I would use much of the Dell's extra features anyway but I am going for the 2005FPW. I just can't afford 500 more dollars for aesthetics and better "build quality." It just isn't in my budget for now. I am debating whether or not to wait and get a different monitor with a better panel, like samsung's new 21".

If you can justify the price increase, the Apple is an awesome monitor.
 
Don't forget that is VERY LIKELY you will not be able to see POST or enter your BIOS using the Apple monitor; the first thing you'll see is the Windows desktop.
 
Thanks Torquemada, I'm aware of that too. I have other monitors I can hook up if I need BIOS access which isn't very often anyway.
 
What many of you don't seem to realize, is that the 2 panels are pretty much the exact same thing. They use the same panel, and therefore their picture quality is nearly identical. Other than the crapshoot some have had to play, I'd say the Dell is a better monitor, functionality wise, price wise, and gives you the same picture quality.
 
chances are the screen are close to identical. dell's only crap is the backlight issue.

personally, i hate apple and their ridiculous prices...because i can never afford one. most of the time, what you're paying for is design and built...which for someone who's poor, this is most of the time pointless. (though still nice)

i must admit it's a nice clean looking screen...and it makes me wonder why other companies dont learn a few things from apple. but in the end, the apple is still a featureless (functions wise) and overpriced product. it'd still be nice to be able to afford one. but their products are clearly marketed for people with too much money.
 
I agree, it is overpriced and lacking in features. But it's the only alternative 20" widescreen out there.

Over here in Rip Off Ireland, the 2005FPW is usually 920 euro inc Tax before any discounts. At present there is 20% off which is why I got it but discount coupons are nowhere near as common here as in the US so it'll be a good while before a similar discount comes along again.

The ACD is 1000 euro inc Tax. Not a huge difference really.

In the US you can get the 2005FPW for around $500 and the ACD = $1000, yes that is a BIG difference. Here, the difference is a lot smaller.
 
iamtherat said:
chances are the screen are close to identical. dell's only crap is the backlight issue.

personally, i hate apple and their ridiculous prices...because i can never afford one. most of the time, what you're paying for is design and built...which for someone who's poor, this is most of the time pointless. (though still nice)

i must admit it's a nice clean looking screen...and it makes me wonder why other companies dont learn a few things from apple. but in the end, the apple is still a featureless (functions wise) and overpriced product. it'd still be nice to be able to afford one. but their products are clearly marketed for people with too much money.
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or people who appreciate good, simple design. i have 2 2001fps. they have PiP and all this other shit i dont use. i use it as a desktop monitor. it has backlight issues. after a few months they started going to shit.
 
I had my final 2005 replacement and my current Apple 20" at the same time and was able to connect them side by side on the same computer. The last 2005 actually had decent backlighting, but the bezel was scratched up (go figure, how does that slip through Q&A, especially the fifth time around :rolleyes: ). Well the Apple with the same panel kills the 2005.

It's not just the backlighting being perfect, but also how the Apple doesn't turn a purplish hue as easily at slight angles and the Apple has a better cover over the panel. One easy test is poking the Dell gently and you see the usual wave of colors...try that on an Apple and you get nothing...which by itself speaks of better build quality in the Apple. The cover also is less reflective and provides better IQ than the Dell. That same panel arguement is moot when the monitor Dell built around it is flat inferior to the Apple.

You can argue value, that's up for the consumer to decide. The Apple for me cost about $300 more than my Dell (~$575 vs. $875, both new, but the Apple with edu discounts), and I feel it was worth it for the one component I stare at daily.
 
Ramuman, your post is music to my ears. I ordered the ACD 20" today to replace my 2005FPW which I got last week and is going back for a refund. I was aware the panels are the same make and was a little worried I might run into the same backlighting problem (despite several ACD users saying otherwise).

You're side by side comparison is exactly what I've been looking for. And I agree with what you say, you get what you pay for. Dell is better value but you compromise on quality construction which = backlight leakage, Apple charge a premium but you're getting possibly the best 20" monitor available.

I'll hopefully confirm that when mine arrives in a day or two :)
 
just as a note from a satisfied ACD 20" owner, apple has an insane in-store return policy. at the one i went to, they accepted returns within 3 weeks of any ACD's with any dead pixels. my friend has the dell panel and i personally find the ACD has more even backlighting than his. i think youll be plenty pleased, and since youre spreading out the monetary damage on credit, it doesnt hurt nearly so much! enjoy an excellent and beautifully designed display.
 
Torquemada XP said:
Don't forget that is VERY LIKELY you will not be able to see POST or enter your BIOS using the Apple monitor; the first thing you'll see is the Windows desktop.
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I am not aware of any cards with DVI that don't support DVI POST. Don't spread this without the facts.
 
ramuman said:
I am not aware of any cards with DVI that don't support DVI POST. Don't spread this without the facts.
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I'm sorry, but this is a widespread problem. Check the Apple forums for PC users' experiences. Neither a BBA 9800 Pro or Sapphire X800XT PE would show POST on the 23" alum. ACD I had in August, so I'm not just talking out of the blue here. The problem isn't the cards, it's the non-standard timings Apple uses on its displays -- the forums will attest to as much.
 
mj007 said:
The fact that the nearest competitor's product is at least $300 more expensive should tell you something.
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Given what we know about marketing psychology and Internet pricing, this statement means nothing. Apple could very well be able to price their display in the same range as Dell's and still provide a quality product and make a profit from its sales. However, most consumers are conditioned to believe that expensive = better, so Apple could be bumping up the price to attract sales.

Then again, I could be wrong. That's the point: we really don't know why there's such a price disparity between two similar products.
 
Ramuman, does you Apple 20" ACD display the post screen? If it does, I guess I will save up, I've given up "hoping" for a good 2005FPW. If the 20" ACD displays BIOS information I'll have made my decision. No pictures needed, just tell me if you can see the BIOS or not at startup.
 
My 6800GT displays post on both the Dell and ACD. My roommates 9600 does on both as well. This isn't a guarantee that it will work (per the post above there might be issues), but on two relatively different cards it does. I never had to install drivers for either monitor either (not that the ACD even comes with any :p). I did reinstall forceware after installing the monitors as I updated my drivers after getting the Dell and reformatted right before the switch over to the ACD.
 
So far I have been to Best Buy, Circut City, Comp USA, Micro Center, Offfice Max, Staples, etc... Looking at displays for myself. Nothing compares to the Apple in terms of Image Quality. No question about it. I dont mind the premium price but I''m just worried about my functionality. I would reeaaaally like to be able to POST and see it happen. And I'm kinda worried about my system not being able to handle the native resolution in max quality in HL2 and such while still maintaining rock solid framerates. Anyone with similar specks with the display?
 
Seems the 20" LCD world is a pit of gambles, with the 20" ACD you run the risk of not being able to change BIOS options while with the 2005FPW you are almost guaranteed to experience some backlight issue, minor or major.

I guess I will have to take my system to the Apple store and ask if they will let me connect to one of the displays and see for myself whether or not it displays the BIOS. I hope the Apple works out well for you Sidane.
 
on the POST screen, ive seen widely varying results with this. my personal experience on a modded sapphire radeon 9800 pro is POST shows perfectly normal when the monitor is connected on DVI. i was afraid of this and already resigned myself to never seeing bios settings outside my 2ndary analog monitor, but it works crystal clear.

ive seen numerous reports of 9800 pro's and many nvidia cards POSTing as well. one post i saw suggested that disabling the quick boot option might help you if you arent POSTing.
 
Does anyone know when Apple will likely drop their M.S.R.P on either their 20'' or 23'' models? Or offer some kind of a rebate/discount? The Apple display is like butta :)

Has anyone heard of the new LCD technology that is supposed to be released that is going to blow conventional LCD's out of the water?
 
Isaacav2 said:
Does anyone know when Apple will likely drop their M.S.R.P on either their 20'' or 23'' models? Or offer some kind of a rebate/discount? The Apple display is like butta :)

Has anyone heard of the new LCD technology that is supposed to be released that is going to blow conventional LCD's out of the water?
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In order they were asked.

1. When they announce a new model, which won't be for awhile.
2. They do. The educational discount.
3. I believe you're refering to OLED, and while it does have advantages over current LCD technology, it's got it's drawbacks as well. The transition to OLED won't really start to happen until the manufacturing process gets cheaper than LCD (which right now it isn't, but will eventually be).
 
Isaacav2 said:
So far I have been to Best Buy, Circut City, Comp USA, Micro Center, Offfice Max, Staples, etc... Looking at displays for myself. Nothing compares to the Apple in terms of Image Quality. No question about it. I dont mind the premium price but I''m just worried about my functionality. I would reeaaaally like to be able to POST and see it happen. And I'm kinda worried about my system not being able to handle the native resolution in max quality in HL2 and such while still maintaining rock solid framerates. Anyone with similar specks with the display?
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I've been running HL2 at 1680x1050 on the 2005FPW, all settings to high, no AA - it runs beautifully and looks gorgeous. My specs are in my sig. With my video card my rig is probably just a tad slower than yours.
 
How would you qualify for the educational discount? Do you have to go in-store and ask or can everything be done by phone or online?
 
Sidane said:
I've been running HL2 at 1680x1050 on the 2005FPW, all settings to high, no AA - it runs beautifully and looks gorgeous. My specs are in my sig. With my video card my rig is probably just a tad slower than yours.
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Thanks for the reply. I thaught that 1680x1050 should not be a problem for my 6800GT, but I plan on playing with atleast 2xAA 4xAF. What about AF? Do you have that enabled? Hopefully my rig is more than just a tad faster in HL2
;)
 
Your rig should be more than enough to play with 4xAA and even 16x AF, although AF doesn't make nearly as much of a difference as AA as far as image quality goes. Above 4x AF I don't think there is a impact on picture quality or framerate.
 
just saw one of these screen in my adviser's office. they are reallynice looking...but it doesn't look like you can change the height and what not...which kinda sucks. i am so used to my dell ultrasharp.

what i cannot believe is, ytf does my adviser have this screen? it's definitely an overkill. jesus, so this is where my tuition money is going??? damn the tuition hikes (20-25% since i've enrolled)!
 
iamtherat said:
just saw one of these screen in my adviser's office. they are reallynice looking...but it doesn't look like you can change the height and what not...which kinda sucks. i am so used to my dell ultrasharp.

what i cannot believe is, ytf does my adviser have this screen? it's definitely an overkill. jesus, so this is where my tuition money is going??? damn the tuition hikes (20-25% since i've enrolled)!
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I dont think that I would blame the guy. Would you turn one down?
:D
 
My 20" ACD arrived today and I thought it would be worthwhile posting a comparison between it and 2005FPW.

First off, you gotta hand it to Apple, they know how to design and present a product. The ACD is a beautiful piece of kit, lovely aluminium finish which makes the 2005 look positively clunky. Alas that's where a lot of the extra money goes I'm sure!

The ACD is an all in one unit, stand, panel and cable all come attached. Just lift it out of the box, set it on the table and plug it in. There is only one cable which at the end terminates into a DVI connection, 1 USB, 1Firewire and a connection for the power box which is separate.

I fired up my machine and sadly encountered the same POST/BIOS problem as many other people - it doesn't display. Neither did the Windows loading screen for that matter. That'll cause complications down the road I'm sure but luckily I don't tweak my settings at all so I don't enter the BIOS all that often.

Out of the box the ACD had 1 dead green pixel, fairly central low to the left. My 2005 has one dead green pixel fairly central to the upper left and 3-4 red ones that appear after a few hours use. I've also just noticed another couple of dead green ones, so it seems to be getting worse over time. Overall the ACD wins on dead pixels stakes - 1 in a over a million I can live with.

Here's a couple of shots of the ACD not long after startup:

Picture-003.jpg

Widescreen videos look terrific!

Picture-004.jpg

As does Half Life 2 at 1680x1050.

One concern I had was whether there would be enough clearance for my centre speaker to fit under the monitor. Thankfully there is - just! It tucks in nicely between the panel and the stand.

The fact that the stand isn't height adjustable was also a concern. The ACD does strike me as being a little low, even though you can tilt it quite a lot. It's only a minor gripe and already I'm getting used to it.

The main issue for me was backlighting. My 2005 November A00 has massive leakage that gets really bad after about 3 hours. The ACD, having been on for 10 hours and counting today has little to none in comparison.

Here are some pics:

Picture-007.jpg

2005FPW after about 3 hours. Yuck!

Picture-011.jpg

2005FPW beside an old Advent laptop after about 4 hours. Double yuck!

Picture-012.jpg

The 2005FPW with the ACD setup on the other side of the room. The difference is clearly noticeable. The ACD had been on about 10 hours, the 2005 about 4.

Picture-013.jpg

Both from the opposite angle.

Picture-014.jpg

The ACD after about 10 hours. Some very minor backlighting in the bottom corners and at the top but for the most part the colour is consistent and how it should be on an LCD.

Picture-008.jpg

Doom 3 in a completely dark corridor on the ACD. Pitch dark the colour is consistent except in the bottom corners but it is almost unnoticeable to the naked eye. Unfortunately I didn't take any pictures of Doom 3 on the 2005 but the leakage was VERY noticeable, large areas of the corners were grey.

So in conclusion I'm very happy with the ACD. It's what the 2005FPW should have been in regards to the panel. Yes it doesn't have the same options/features as the 2005 in terms of picture adjustment, inputs, adjustable stand and rotation but from my perspective they're not essential.

What is essential is a non intrusive backlight that doesn't turn black into a washed out grey and minimal dead pixels. The ACD has delivered that so far and after 10 hours of constant use it looks like staying that way. The 2005 started having problems after 2-3 hours.

In terms of choosing which one to go for. The 2005FPW is definitely more value for money if you can accept its flaws. The ACD is overpriced and lacking features in comparison.

But for someone like me who does a lot of graphic design and plenty of gaming too, solid picture and consistent colour comes first and it looks like the ACD is the only real option in the 20" widescreen market.

Now to get a refund on my defective 2005FPW which isn't proving to be easy, I love Dell customer service so much..... :mad:
 
I'm surprised you don't see POST. I've heard of that one some 5700 cards...and that a video BIOS flash fixed it. That's something you might want to look into. My roommate's 9600 can do DVI POST.

I'm also having trouble with Dell CS on returns. I shipped my fifth and final one back for a full refund, and they recieved it today according to UPS, but on my Dell account page it shows a sixth 2005 has been shipped (in transit to carrier, no tracking yet). They better not be doing another exchange - I'm doing a chargeback on my credit card if that's the case.
 
I did a google search for details on flashing the video card BIOS but nothing jumped out at me. TBH it's not something I've heard of before, motherboards yes, video cards no. I searched Sapphire's site and there's no mention of BIOS updates for the 9800 Pro.

I wouldn't be keen to experiment with a non-official bios, I don't want to turn my card into a brick!

Five replacements and you still haven't got one that works properly? :eek: that's just crazy, the monitor is majorly flawed!!
 
steviep said:
What many of you don't seem to realize, is that the 2 panels are pretty much the exact same thing. They use the same panel, and therefore their picture quality is nearly identical. Other than the crapshoot some have had to play, I'd say the Dell is a better monitor, functionality wise, price wise, and gives you the same picture quality.
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Well, if you have poor backlighting then the picture quality will be significanlty worse. Colors will be uneven as they depend upon the amount of light they need to block. I'd say that means a worse picture quality!

I guess you could draw an anology to cars, if someone was manufacturing Ferraris but you could save money by getting the "same" Ferrari engine and suspension with a Pinto body would you consider them "exactly the same thing"?
 
As I've posted before, the panel is the same, but there are other difference that affect picture quality, including the front covering over the pnale. Apple's is harder and makes the picture better (less reflective, less of that purple effect off center etc.). I had both panels side by side, so I can say that for certain.
 
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