MIT Engineer: Cars Shouldn’t Be Fully Driverless

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Megalith

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In opposition to Google’s philosophy of fully autonomous self-driving cars, this engineer believes there should be at least some degree of manual control left to us.

If robotics in extreme environments are any guide, Mindell says, self-driving cars should not be fully self-driving. That idea, he notes, is belied by decades of examples involving spacecraft, underwater exploration, air travel, and more. In each of those spheres, fully automated vehicles have frequently been promised, yet the most state-of-the-art products still have a driver or pilot somewhere in the network. This is one reason Mindell thinks cars are not on the road to complete automation.
 
Because human designed is inherently flawed, we should not fully trust in it.

Sure, I understand his fear, it is valid, but for him to make this statement seems a bit foolish?
I mean, it's pretty obvious, and I feel near sighted given what I imagine the natural progression autonomous driving will take moving forward.

I am glad this engineer is speaking up on the technology, but he should restraint his comments to areas he can measure with accuracy, as he is trained to do.
 
Kalabalana said:
Because human designed is inherently flawed, we should not fully trust in it.
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I think the argument is that even in easier and/or more controlled environments, with much larger budgets available for the vehicle, full automation is still not available. Therefore it's unlikely that a fully autonomous car will be available anytime soon, especially that is better than a driver with advanced driving assistance technology.
 
Cars will never be fully autonomous in extreme environments. But on the average road/highway, on the average commute? That's easy.
 
They aren't perfect, but I have to imagine they'll be better than California drivers.
 
I think auto driving is going to be possible in the near future, but I don't think we're going to see a car where we sit and drink champagne in the back while the car drives us to our destination anytime soon. I doubt that auto manufacturers want to take on the liability (and as soon as it's fully automated, an accident is their fault).

I know Tesla thinks they'll be there in 5 years, but I think what they'll have is their autopilot mode work on most, if not all, roads, but you're not going to relax in your lazy boy or sleep in your bed while the car drives you from Chicago to Minneapolis.

I hope I'm proven wrong.
 
Dwango said:
Cars will never be fully autonomous in extreme environments. But on the average road/highway, on the average commute? That's easy.
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+1

His examples were deep sea and moon exploration and air planes...

The common car going down a very well known street is a different situation I believe.

The difficult part will be for early adopters... Those cars will probably drive themselves like bluehairs, with little concern for the flow of traffic. Sure when all the cars are automated peas in a pod.. but before then it will be difficult.
 
dandirk said:
+1

His examples were deep sea and moon exploration and air planes...

The common car going down a very well known street is a different situation I believe.
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Yes, the point is that deep sea, moon exploration and air planes are much more controlled, with less unpredictable things that can happen and they're still not automated.

Going down a street is much tougher by comparison.
 
I like that the guy emphasizes that he's a historian and then cites 40 years of history and extrapolates that into perpetuity. :rolleyes: If history was going to teach this guy one thing, it should be that what we see as viable today is going to be completely different in the year 2055.

We have so much that 40 years ago people wouldn't believe was even possible, now we have a so called expert doing the exact same thing.
 
If it has the capability to carry people, I doubt a manufacture will ever completely remove manual controls. Dumb down and minimize the training required to use controls, yes. Fly by wire, yes. Remote operation, yes. Heck voice control, probably.
 
nilepez said:
I doubt that auto manufacturers want to take on the liability (and as soon as it's fully automated, an accident is their fault).
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This right here. Only way we get fully autonomous cars is if automakers get massive liability immunity or very low damage caps legislated.
 
Kueller said:
This right here. Only way we get fully autonomous cars is if automakers get massive liability immunity or very low damage caps legislated.
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I'd say it's likely there will be some sort of standards body and adherence to the standard will be the measure of liability.


I would love a fully automated car but I won't be getting the first or second models!
 
I disagree and think we have fully autonomous driving fairly soon.

Look at ABS. Your brakes are the single most important system on your car, and for the last 20 years, when braking under the most severe situations, we've been handling the task over to the computer. Obviously a far cry from autonomous driving, but I think in a matter of time, people will be more uncomfortable without it than with.
 
well its not like they cant keep tweaking the software after use in real world situations is it, I'm sure that will add to reliability.
 
I'll be perfectly blunt. The problems we have when it comes to driving is that flatly most people should never have been given a license in the first place. Our driving tests are far more lax than our gun laws and arguably you can cause far more damage and death with a car. I'll support driverless cars under the condition that those of us who can prove we are significantly better drivers be allowed to drive whatever we please. I have zero interest in allowing a computer to make driving choices for me and can think of very few instances where I would want to be driven anywhere. Now once I am unable to prove that I am extremely competent on the road, then sure take the license.

On that note, this is absolutely an area where VR could have huge impacts. You could create a far more comprehensive and challenging road test without the massive cost of a full on simulator. Right now the road test being given is an absolute joke and honestly anyone that fails it should just be put on a permanent no drive list.
 
Kueller said:
This right here. Only way we get fully autonomous cars is if automakers get massive liability immunity or very low damage caps legislated.
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Several automakers and Google have already gone on record as saying that if their vehicles are in an accident and it's found to be the autonomous car's fault they will accept the liability.

And for the record Google's cars have been involved in a total of 13 traffic accidents since they've been roving the streets and in every case the accident was the fault of the other driver. Autonomous cars are far safer than cars driven by people. A computer that can see in 360 degrees around the vehicle and pay attention to it's environment 100 percent of the time will never be beaten by some idiot trying to juggle her makeup while moving down the road at 75 mph.
 
Dwango said:
Several automakers and Google have already gone on record as saying that if their vehicles are in an accident and it's found to be the autonomous car's fault they will accept the liability.

And for the record Google's cars have been involved in a total of 13 traffic accidents since they've been roving the streets and in every case the accident was the fault of the other driver. Autonomous cars are far safer than cars driven by people. A computer that can see in 360 degrees around the vehicle and pay attention to it's environment 100 percent of the time will never be beaten by some idiot trying to juggle her makeup while moving down the road at 75 mph.
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Talk is cheap. Lawsuits are expensive. Corporations exist to generate profit. The nice talk will end when the lawsuits begin and the matter is referred to lawyers, who dgaf what the lobbyist/PR rep that wanted to get autonomous cars approved said 10 years ago.
 
SLee said:
I think the argument is that even in easier and/or more controlled environments, with much larger budgets available for the vehicle, full automation is still not available. Therefore it's unlikely that a fully autonomous car will be available anytime soon, especially that is better than a driver with advanced driving assistance technology.
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Space travel, flight, and underwater exploration are "easier" or "more controlled" environments?
 
SLee said:
Yes, the point is that deep sea, moon exploration and air planes are much more controlled, with less unpredictable things that can happen and they're still not automated.

Going down a street is much tougher by comparison.
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Imagine taking a 17 year old kid with no experience and putting him at the controls of an aircraft or Soyuz.

It's easier to fly than drive down the street, since the environment is so much more controlled!

The only reason you people think that underwater, air, or space travel is easier and more controlled is because you have no idea what you're talking about.
 
kumquat said:
Space travel, flight, and underwater exploration are "easier" or "more controlled" environments?
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Pretty much since these environments are so much emptier than roads, where they rarely have to consider other objects and when they do they are generally stationary or moving in a predictable manner. All of which is easier for a machine than driving.
 
Again someone stating what can't be done. They say the clever ones learn from past mistakes, guess he's not a clever guy, as he should've learned from all those that come before and stating that sg can't be done.

Space exploration and underwater exploration is not automated simply because there is no point to do so. Why? Because how many spacecraft are out there that needs flying? There ought to be someone that can fly it. But cars. There are billions of cars, and unless you're joyriding in daddy's new sports car that he bought to deal with his midlife crisis, all driving is wasted time.

Also calculating trajectories in space and in underwater current requires slightly more complex calculations than what a car needs to follow a road, or avoid obstacles.

And he speaks of unforeseen situations as a con. Just how many times does a regular old human drives does the right thing in an unforeseen situation? Oops a car is stopped in front of me, I'll swerve into the oncoming semi.Or oops a car pulled out in front of me from the right, so I'll swerve left, and slam into the middle of it, but if I'd have done nothing I'd have completely missed him. That's what the superior driving of the average guy is capable of
 
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