Apple Tells U.S. Judge 'Impossible' To Unlock New iPhones

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Did Apple just say that it is impossible to unlock new iPhones? Impossible? Really?

Apple Inc (AAPL.O) told a U.S. judge that accessing data stored on a locked iPhone would be "impossible" with devices using its latest operating system, but the company has the "technical ability" to help law enforcement unlock older phones.
 
I can't say that it likes this now. But I am pretty certain that Jobs was such an egomaniac that the only way he was going to knowingly let some one else get access to *his* followers was over his dead body.

I think he was too proud to let the government or anyone else use him to do the leg work. I can't say that I feel that way about Tim Cook or any of the other "superstars" there. But I did feel that way about Jobs.

And I appreciate it if it was the case.
 
Nice marketing scheme to get criminals over to iOS, lol
 
Those devices include a feature that prevents anyone without the device's passcode from accessing its data, including Apple itself.
Click to expand...

Why is this hard to believe? Just because Android is literally spyware doesn't mean Apple has to be. We need to support this kind of thing more.
 
Steve said:
Apple Inc (AAPL.O) told a U.S. judge that accessing data stored on a locked iPhone would be "impossible" with devices using its latest operating system, but the company has the "technical ability" to help law enforcement unlock older phones.
Click to expand...

That's the entire point of having strong encryption. I don't doubt it at all.
 
I want to believe it, my tin hat makes me think this is a publicity stunt. If this is real I would like it if more companies stood behind encrypting user contents so the end user is protected if need be. I keep getting told that the NSA has a key to everything but I wonder about that sometimes, there is always someone better, the NSA can't be the worlds best.
 
Darunion said:
I want to believe it, my tin hat makes me think this is a publicity stunt. If this is real I would like it if more companies stood behind encrypting user contents so the end user is protected if need be. I keep getting told that the NSA has a key to everything but I wonder about that sometimes, there is always someone better, the NSA can't be the worlds best.
Click to expand...

For many years before the Snowden leaks the NIST consulted with the NSA on encryption standards meaning that the NSA had opportunities to build encryption standards in such a way that they could be broken under very specific circumstances only known to the NSA. Obviously since the wealth of information provided by Snowden this isn't the case anymore.

I don't know if the NSA are the world's "best" but they certainly employ some of the best. The NSA has an insane budget and when you can offer the finest minds in the world a practically unlimited research budget & free them from many of the ethical constraints that other organizations would place on them, you're offering something very few other places can. And there is a lot of misguided patriotism built in there as well meaning you can get some of the finest minds to go against their built in moral compass.
 
give the code to nsa... sure they can hack it and get access... can bill apple for the work.
 
xJ321x said:
Why is this hard to believe? Just because Android is literally spyware doesn't mean Apple has to be. We need to support this kind of thing more.
Click to expand...

Just because it's encrypted, does not mean it's not spying on you.... Apple collects data on it's users just like google (and now MS) does.... Don't kid yourself thinking they don't.
 
Biznatch said:
Just because it's encrypted, does not mean it's not spying on you.... Apple collects data on it's users just like google (and now MS) does.... Don't kid yourself thinking they don't.
Click to expand...

But, you agree to have that done when you buy the device. So, it isn't a "secret" that they are data mining your usage.
 
Biznatch said:
Just because it's encrypted, does not mean it's not spying on you.... Apple collects data on it's users just like google (and now MS) does....
Click to expand...

If it's encrypted and only I have the passcode then how would that work? Why would Apple lie to a judge then? Isn't it illegal to lie in court? Wouldn't it blow up in Apple's face once proved otherwise? People hate liars more than honest crooks.

Don't kid yourself thinking they don't.
Click to expand...

I'm not kidding myself at all. Apple going the way of protecting its users would strengthen their position in the market when as you said google and MS (everyone else) are doing the exact opposite. It'd be a super smart move in my opinion (and probably in Apple's opinion as well).
 
westrock2000 said:
I can't say that it likes this now. But I am pretty certain that Jobs was such an egomaniac that the only way he was going to knowingly let some one else get access to *his* followers was over his dead body.
Click to expand...

You know this encryption in the new iOS came about way after Steve Jobs died. Right?
 
xJ321x said:
If it's encrypted and only I have the passcode then how would that work? Why would Apple lie to a judge then? Isn't it illegal to lie in court? Wouldn't it blow up in Apple's face once proved otherwise? People hate liars more than honest crooks.



I'm not kidding myself at all. Apple going the way of protecting its users would strengthen their position in the market when as you said google and MS (everyone else) are doing the exact opposite. It'd be a super smart move in my opinion (and probably in Apple's opinion as well).
Click to expand...


Encrypting a device just prevents other people from accessing the data on the device itself. It does not prevent apple from spying on you, just like google (which also has encryption on their devices..). They don't need access to the device when there are services running that will send apple/google/MS the info. You are confusing 2 completely different issues.
 
Can't wait for the security researcher that is going to blow Apple's statement out of the water. Just like the judge and the rest of us consumers, we're going to have to take Apple's word "that it is impossible to unlock a new iPhone".
 
Dwango said:
For many years before the Snowden leaks the NIST consulted with the NSA on encryption standards meaning that the NSA had opportunities to build encryption standards in such a way that they could be broken under very specific circumstances only known to the NSA. Obviously since the wealth of information provided by Snowden this isn't the case anymore.

I don't know if the NSA are the world's "best" but they certainly employ some of the best. The NSA has an insane budget and when you can offer the finest minds in the world a practically unlimited research budget & free them from many of the ethical constraints that other organizations would place on them, you're offering something very few other places can. And there is a lot of misguided patriotism built in there as well meaning you can get some of the finest minds to go against their built in moral compass.
Click to expand...


You are a perfect example of just how misguided your though process is when it comes to the NSA. The NSA is not a law enforcement agency, they are a DoD component and as such, a "moral compass" has nothing to do with anything. the NSA's job is to to Intelligence Collection on enemies and potential enemies of the USA. There is no "misguided patriotism" because it isn't a case of the NSA doing things to our own people. That's what made William Binney and others all leave their jobs and throw away their retirement, because they thought the NSA was doing something unethical and illegal. They were wrong, they didn't know that some things had changed, they also didn't know the full story around what they thought was going on.

But they were not a-typical of NSA employees, they are the norm. These guys who chose to accept severe damage to their personal futures because they thought something wrong was going on are not different then most, they are the average of most. Guys like you can't see it and won't believe it. It's too bad that your anger and distrust blinds you to how decent these guys are. Their "misplaced patriotism" is real patriotism grounded in the Constitution and the desire to protect and serve our country.

Maybe you'll come to understand this some day, maybe not. Maybe you'll gain a point of view that allows you to accept that there will allways be a tension or strugle between security and privacy and that we have this tug-of-war is a good thing and stands as testiment to a healthy system of safeguards not because there is never a point that things go too far one way or the other, but because it exists at all. It is proof that our system works and is healthy, not proof of evil and misdeed.

Snowden's "revelations" and what has happened since are only simptoms of a working system that can adapt and change and still maintain the fundimental structures that support our freedoms while doing all that is reasonable to ensure it's security.

When you get an infection and your body fights it off without needing help that's a good sign, not proof of rot. It's all in your point of view.
 
Apple could cure cancer and the collective Android circle jerk would hate Apple for it saying they should have done it earlier, and that, in fact someone else already cured cancer and they just copied them.
 
Dwango said:
For many years before the Snowden leaks the NIST consulted with the NSA on encryption standards meaning that the NSA had opportunities to build encryption standards in such a way that they could be broken under very specific circumstances only known to the NSA. Obviously since the wealth of information provided by Snowden this isn't the case anymore.

I don't know if the NSA are the world's "best" but they certainly employ some of the best. The NSA has an insane budget and when you can offer the finest minds in the world a practically unlimited research budget & free them from many of the ethical constraints that other organizations would place on them, you're offering something very few other places can. And there is a lot of misguided patriotism built in there as well meaning you can get some of the finest minds to go against their built in moral compass.
Click to expand...

this +1.

That said NSA used a metric crap ton of hardware to break keys. If a new encoding scheme is encountered they have to dedicate time to it. This is why perfect forward secrecy with elliptical curves is becoming the holy grail of encryption. If you break the encryption somehow, it's only good for that session.

It would be the equivalent of the Germans using the Enigma machine once and then throwing the technology out and inventing a new one.
 
OEM said:
Apple could cure cancer and the collective Android circle jerk would hate Apple for it saying they should have done it earlier, and that, in fact someone else already cured cancer and they just copied them.
Click to expand...

The only issue I have with this is that it doesn't cover how cool Apple would make the cure be.
 
xJ321x said:
Why is this hard to believe? Just because Android is literally spyware doesn't mean Apple has to be. We need to support this kind of thing more.
Click to expand...

Because Apple doesn't? Grow up. All these multinational megacorps datamine and market the hell out of user data they collect.
 
lcpiper said:
You are a perfect example of just how misguided your though process is when it comes to the NSA. The NSA is not a law enforcement agency, they are a DoD component and as such, a "moral compass" has nothing to do with anything. the NSA's job is to to Intelligence Collection on enemies and potential enemies of the USA. There is no "misguided patriotism" because it isn't a case of the NSA doing things to our own people. That's what made William Binney and others all leave their jobs and throw away their retirement, because they thought the NSA was doing something unethical and illegal. They were wrong, they didn't know that some things had changed, they also didn't know the full story around what they thought was going on.

But they were not a-typical of NSA employees, they are the norm. These guys who chose to accept severe damage to their personal futures because they thought something wrong was going on are not different then most, they are the average of most. Guys like you can't see it and won't believe it. It's too bad that your anger and distrust blinds you to how decent these guys are. Their "misplaced patriotism" is real patriotism grounded in the Constitution and the desire to protect and serve our country.

Maybe you'll come to understand this some day, maybe not. Maybe you'll gain a point of view that allows you to accept that there will allways be a tension or strugle between security and privacy and that we have this tug-of-war is a good thing and stands as testiment to a healthy system of safeguards not because there is never a point that things go too far one way or the other, but because it exists at all. It is proof that our system works and is healthy, not proof of evil and misdeed.

Snowden's "revelations" and what has happened since are only simptoms of a working system that can adapt and change and still maintain the fundimental structures that support our freedoms while doing all that is reasonable to ensure it's security.

When you get an infection and your body fights it off without needing help that's a good sign, not proof of rot. It's all in your point of view.
Click to expand...

We been done this road. NSA's bulk collection treats EVERYONE like a potential suspect.

And there are multiple examples where PRIVATE information was used to extort celebrities, the rich and wealthy, law enforcement, judicial members, and politicians. Case in point the Secret Service tried to ruin a congressmen who was investigating Secret Service scandals.

http://nypost.com/2015/09/30/secret...irt-on-congressman-who-investigated-scandals/

Who is watching the watchers? If the data is out there it has the potential to be abused.
 
amddragonpc said:
Can't wait for the security researcher that is going to blow Apple's statement out of the water. Just like the judge and the rest of us consumers, we're going to have to take Apple's word "that it is impossible to unlock a new iPhone".
Click to expand...

Well there will be something new come of this and I guess Apple thinks they have the power to fight off the Feds if it turns into a fight. I think they'll get crushed myself.

Apple's position was laid out in a brief filed late Monday, after a federal magistrate judge in Brooklyn, New York, sought its input as he weighed a U.S. Justice Department request to force the company to help authorities access a seized iPhone during an investigation.
Click to expand...

In this instance the Judge wasn't ordering Apple to produce the data from the phone, he was asking Apples input. As such, Apple is not "defying the court" as it is. But the Judge knows full well that Apple did this on purpose and that the result was Apples intent. If the Judge decides to force the issue and orders Apple to produce, "impossible to unlock" has nothing to do with anything except that Apple will have placed them in a position that is very dangerous. The Judge could decide that Apple is intimately aware that the Federal government has the authority to require them to produce records and that engineering and "excuse to avoid compliance" is not an excuse. The fines and sanctions could be crippling even for Apple. If the court decide that the actions of the company were driven by the decissions of one or more individuals, it's even possible that these guys could face criminal charges themselves.

Right around 2006 I invested in NVidia and the very next day NVidia's stock dropped over 30% and continued to drop steadily over the next couple of days until it bottomed out at about 35% of it's former value. Thats a 65% loss. Pretty major drop right? The reason was that NVidia had just announced that there was a problem with a bunch of their modile GPU chips, the package was weak, they could run at proper settings. Basicly it was going to cost the company all their profit for the next one or two quarters. That announcement, that NVidia's shareholders wouldn't see any profit on their investments for the next 3 to 6 months was enough to make them abandon a solvent company in droves. It took NVidia over half a year to recover.

I did make a little money in the end because I bought into them even more while they were down cost averaging my initial investment meaning the stock didn't have to return to their former glory to get a profit out of it. But the point remains, just a serious threat of profitability, even over a short term, could be devestating, and knowing that the courts could cause this to drag out far longer is potentially more dangerous still.

Apple might make your "hero's" list for this, but heros frequently die and the line between hero, martyr, and example is sometimes very thin.
 
DigitalGriffin said:
We been done this road. NSA's bulk collection treats EVERYONE like a potential suspect.

And there are multiple examples where PRIVATE information was used to extort celebrities, the rich and wealthy, law enforcement, judicial members, and politicians. Case in point the Secret Service tried to ruin a congressmen who was investigating Secret Service scandals.

http://nypost.com/2015/09/30/secret...irt-on-congressman-who-investigated-scandals/

Who is watching the watchers? If the data is out there it has the potential to be abused.
Click to expand...

Your right, and you still don't see your error.
Who is watching the watchers?
Click to expand...
This question I have a damn good answer for. Because you and others refuse to see reason I can tell you without any doubt, the Watchers now watch the watchers. Everyone who holds a security clearance is now under survielance both at work and at home. It's a full blown out in the open program of survielance of the most intrusive category directed against US Citizens who are not even suspected of any wrong-doing.

Edward Snowden may have exposed a program that went over the line and represented the potential for abuse. But his actions and the unrelenting misguided beligerance of people like you have given birth to the real thing in it's grossest form. And they don't even try to hide it. And people like you ignore it completely.
 
Skripka said:
Because Apple doesn't? Grow up. All these multinational megacorps datamine and market the hell out of user data they collect.
Click to expand...

So no multinational megacorp could ever want privacy (from government spying) on its end users when it wants privacy (from government spying) itself as a multinational megacorp? Sounds realistic, especially for a company that makes its cake off of hardware and hardware and more hardware.

Google has tainted the well and got MS to join them so no one else will just pick a new well, I got it. However Apple not having any backdoor key is the only way they'd have any chance at all to defend their position from the US.gov.


In my opinion.
 
Apple is certainly stretching the truth here. It's their OS, running their encryption scheme. They can certainly get data off the device if they wanted too.
 
I think the writing is on the wall. The Federal Government is not going to sit there and do nothing when a company like Apple threatens to make it impossible to ever get any corporate or private records for Judicial review. Does anyone here think the Feds are just going to throw their hands up in the air and say "Well guys, it was good while it lasted" ?

Sheeeiiitttt. Apple is going to play this card right up until the Feds take them behind closed doors and threaten them with castigation and then if Apple is suicidal and still refuses that the hammer will fall and Apple will burn. The US Government will destroy Apple before they allow companies like Apple to make it "impossible" to comply with regulations.
 
lcpiper said:
I think the writing is on the wall. The Federal Government is not going to sit there and do nothing when a company like Apple threatens to make it impossible to ever get any corporate or private records for Judicial review. Does anyone here think the Feds are just going to throw their hands up in the air and say "Well guys, it was good while it lasted" ?

Sheeeiiitttt. Apple is going to play this card right up until the Feds take them behind closed doors and threaten them with castigation and then if Apple is suicidal and still refuses that the hammer will fall and Apple will burn. The US Government will destroy Apple before they allow companies like Apple to make it "impossible" to comply with regulations.
Click to expand...

I am curious how this will play out. If apple publicly concedes and creates a system with a backdoor, that will impact sales dramatically (which is odd because are you going to run to a phone that already has said backdoor?). If they refuse until their dying breath, I feel like this will be a very hot issue for some years.
 
xJ321x said:
If it's encrypted and only I have the passcode then how would that work? Why would Apple lie to a judge then? Isn't it illegal to lie in court? Wouldn't it blow up in Apple's face once proved otherwise? People hate liars more than honest crooks.
Click to expand...

Easy, you enter your passcode, the phone starts working. It collects your data, then spams it out to Apple's servers. It's nothing new and Apple has been doing it for a while. Before and after they encrypted phones.

I'm not kidding myself at all. Apple going the way of protecting its users would strengthen their position in the market when as you said google and MS (everyone else) are doing the exact opposite. It'd be a super smart move in my opinion (and probably in Apple's opinion as well).
Click to expand...

Google has encryption on Android since Honeycomb. MS has had encryption since Vista. They were optional features that you could setup. Google is forcing mandatory encryption for new devices using Marshmallow. MS still has it as optional, cause Windows and give users choices instead.

Apple, Google, and now MS are still spying on you regardless of encryption.
 
krotch said:
Easy, you enter your passcode, the phone starts working. It collects your data, then spams it out to Apple's servers. It's nothing new and Apple has been doing it for a while. Before and after they encrypted phones.
Click to expand...

So you're saying there is zero chance Apple doesn't collect everything Google and MS do? If so, why would Apple lie to a judge and risk more damage when it's already common knowledge that they do the exact same thing as Google and MS?

Doesn't make any sense to me.

Google has encryption on Android since Honeycomb. MS has had encryption since Vista. They were optional features that you could setup. Google is forcing mandatory encryption for new devices using Marshmallow. MS still has it as optional, cause Windows and give users choices instead.
Click to expand...
Yes, but we already know they put in backdoors (and are companies built on software/data mining), Apple claims something entirely different (and is a company built on selling hardware and more hardware). They appear to be two different types of giants to me. :eek:


Apple, Google, and now MS are still spying on you regardless of encryption.
Click to expand...
So Apple is taking a stance against the US government when they don't have a leg to stand on? I don't see why a company would move forward with such a reckless cause.

Even if Apple collects certain aspects of a users device it in no way means they're data mining to the excellence (evil) Google has managed to do. That has yet to be proven, to me at least. :eek:
 
lcpiper said:
I think the writing is on the wall. The Federal Government is not going to sit there and do nothing when a company like Apple threatens to make it impossible to ever get any corporate or private records for Judicial review. Does anyone here think the Feds are just going to throw their hands up in the air and say "Well guys, it was good while it lasted" ?

Sheeeiiitttt. Apple is going to play this card right up until the Feds take them behind closed doors and threaten them with castigation and then if Apple is suicidal and still refuses that the hammer will fall and Apple will burn. The US Government will destroy Apple before they allow companies like Apple to make it "impossible" to comply with regulations.
Click to expand...

Have you not been paying attention to the head of the FBI whining about not being able to read peoples phones for the last year?

According to this ars report:
FBI Director James Comey told a congressional panel that the Obama administration won't ask Congress for legislation requiring the tech sector to install backdoors into their products so the authorities can access encrypted data.

Comey said the administration for now will continue lobbying private industry to create backdoors to allow the authorities to open up locked devices to investigate criminal cases and terrorism.

"The administration has decided not to seek a legislative remedy now, but it makes sense to continue the conversations with industry," Comey told a Senate panel of the Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee on Thursday.
Click to expand...
 
Oh, and from Obama's own words
If American companies maintain the ability to unlock their customers' data and devices on request, governments other than the United States will demand the same access, and will also be emboldened to demand the same capability from their native companies. The US government, having made the same demands, will have little room to object. The result will be an information environment riddled with vulnerabilities that could be exploited by even the most repressive or dangerous regimes. That's not a future that the American people or the people of the world deserve.
Click to expand...
 
DocSavage said:
Have you not been paying attention to the head of the FBI whining about not being able to read peoples phones for the last year?

According to this ars report:
Click to expand...

Yes, exactly my point. The Feds are still playing nice nice hoping to get these companies to understand that the companies themselves still have a requirement to comply with Federal Law. In the current climate they don't want to look like the bad guy any more then they have to. But they are not going to let this stand much longer. Today a Judge is "asking for Apple's input". Tommorrow they may simply demand Apple comply with the request for records and if Apple engineered their own failure then it's Apples fault, but doesn't change the requirement to comply at all.
 
DocSavage said:
Oh, and from Obama's own words
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You put stock in what HE says?

The other day, a Russian General went to the US Forces Commander over operations in Syria and "told" him that Russian was going to be flying missions over Syria and the US should stop their activities. The US General told the Russin General to piss off. Today, the Russians and the US "coordinate" all air operations in Syria.

Other countries try to tell us what to do, doesn't mean we comply. Sometimes we do, sometimes we find a diplomatic middle ground, sometimes we tell them to get fucked.

But if something comes out of Obama's mouth it's cause he has an angle and thinks what he is saying will get him what he wants. By now I would have figured you knew what he wants and what we want aren't the same things.
 
lcpiper said:
Yes, exactly my point. The Feds are still playing nice nice hoping to get these companies to understand that the companies themselves still have a requirement to comply with Federal Law. In the current climate they don't want to look like the bad guy any more then they have to. But they are not going to let this stand much longer. Today a Judge is "asking for Apple's input". Tommorrow they may simply demand Apple comply with the request for records and if Apple engineered their own failure then it's Apples fault, but doesn't change the requirement to comply at all.
Click to expand...

If Apple can't access the records, then they can't access them. Nothing the Judge says can change that. Now Apple could theoretically change their software so that an update could make future people's data readable, but I don't think the judge has the authority to force that.
 
xJ321x said:
So you're saying there is zero chance Apple doesn't collect everything Google and MS do? If so, why would Apple lie to a judge and risk more damage when it's already common knowledge that they do the exact same thing as Google and MS?

Doesn't make any sense to me.
Click to expand...

What lie? Did you even read the article.

"Apple Inc (AAPL.O) told a U.S. judge that accessing data stored on a locked iPhone would be "impossible" with devices using its latest operating system"

Keyword there being "locked". Once you unlock your phone, that thing is going to spam Apple with all your usage data and whatever else they want to collect.
 
krotch said:
What lie? Did you even read the article.

"Apple Inc (AAPL.O) told a U.S. judge that accessing data stored on a locked iPhone would be "impossible" with devices using its latest operating system"

Keyword there being "locked". Once you unlock your phone, that thing is going to spam Apple with all your usage data and whatever else they want to collect.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I figure they'd just get the owner to unlock it, but there's that pesky 5th amendment in the way.
 
krotch said:
"Apple Inc (AAPL.O) told a U.S. judge that accessing data stored on a locked iPhone would be "impossible" with devices using its latest operating system"

Keyword there being "locked". Once you unlock your phone, that thing is going to spam Apple with all your usage data and whatever else they want to collect.
Click to expand...

I don't think just locking a phone would stop a backdoor from gaining the data by Apple, no? Isn't that the real question needing to be answered here? Yes, I read the article.
 
Oh, and I hate the use of the term "backdoors". A backdoor is an engineered "door" into a system or device. And we all know a backdoor might be exploited as a vulnerability which is why we don't want them, Industry doesn't really want them, and the government agrees that they don't want them. This is why you see the government explicitely say that they don't want backdoors. But what the government does want is a way for business to comply with legal requests for information from people's devices and the media turns right around and calls this a "backdoor" when it is not a backdoor. That's why you see the mixed messages up above.

There is a difference between;

FBI Director James Comey told a congressional panel that the Obama administration won't ask Congress for legislation requiring the tech sector to install backdoors into their products so the authorities can access encrypted data.
Click to expand...

And a writer's interpretation like this;
Comey said the administration for now will continue lobbying private industry to create backdoors to allow the authorities to open up locked devices to investigate criminal cases and terrorism.
Click to expand...

Neither is a quote, but some writers are more liberal in their paraphrasing techniques sp you get mixed messages.
 
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