First Library To Support Anonymous Internet Browsing Effort Stops After DHS Email

The Department of Homeland Security and local police didn't like the idea of a library running a Tor exit relay.

In July, the Kilton Public Library in Lebanon, New Hampshire, was the first library in the country to become part of the anonymous Web surfing service Tor. The library allowed Tor users around the world to bounce their Internet traffic through the library, thus masking users’ locations. Soon after state authorities received an email about it from an agent at the Department of Homeland Security.

This is rich. Got a woman who is trying to organize libraries across the country to get on the tinfoil hat brigade and offer their patrons anonymized Internet usage to protect our freedoms and privacy. Using a service that is well-known to be a refuge of sexual predators, drug dealers, arms merchants. I'd enjoy sticking a microphone and a camera in her face and asking her why she wants public libraries to buddy up with child molesters.

Commander Suzdal said:

This is rich. Got a woman who is trying to organize libraries across the country to get on the tinfoil hat brigade and offer their patrons anonymized Internet usage to protect our freedoms and privacy. Using a service that is well-known to be a refuge of sexual predators, drug dealers, arms merchants. I'd enjoy sticking a microphone and a camera in her face and asking her why she wants public libraries to buddy up with child molesters.

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So your entire argument is that because a few bad apples use a service, then all users of that service must be pedophilic drug dealing gun runners?

That seems completely logical! 1+2=8 level of reasoning.

Have you been following any of the investigative journalism about the Deep Web lately? It's not just "a few."

Investigative journalism these daya usually means pants wetting over-eactions by a non-tech savvy media with an agenda to push.

I'm going to go ahead and side with the pro-freedom of privacy people, over the mefia's scary stories, thank you.

Commander Suzdal said:

This is rich. Got a woman who is trying to organize libraries across the country to get on the tinfoil hat brigade and offer their patrons anonymized Internet usage to protect our freedoms and privacy. Using a service that is well-known to be a refuge of sexual predators, drug dealers, arms merchants. I'd enjoy sticking a microphone and a camera in her face and asking her why she wants public libraries to buddy up with child molesters.

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If that is your logic why do you drive a car/truck? I can't believe you'd want to be associated with family murdering drunk drivers, you must be a real piece of scum!

TOR is a tool. Tools can be used for good or bad. TOR doesn't have morals or values, it just routes packets.

canna said:

If that is your logic why do you drive a car/truck? I can't believe you'd want to be associated with family murdering drunk drivers, you must be a real piece of scum!

TOR is a tool. Tools can be used for good or bad. TOR doesn't have morals or values, it just routes packets.

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+1

Just like VCR's. Just because it can be used for nefarious purposes, doesn't mean it doesn't have legitimate purposes.

This includes reporters communicating with secret sources

People who want to hide their identity because they are afraid of public exposure over private information. (ie celebrity, revealing she was raped by a politician) Or a couple going through family counseling services.

A 3rd party company who is being unfairly blocked from comments posted by a competitor based on their IP

A client discussing with a security team a potentially sensitive move of valuable assets (ie: Jewels/painting)

A client discussing with a lawyer potential legal implications.

A white hat who's looking for new exploits.

And of course, in countries like Iran and China where speaking against your government will get you killed.

The gov't doesn't have the right to snoop on you without a warrant. And it snoops on you without one today which is against unreasonable search and seizure. So you have a right to protect yourself.

Good old fashioned police work can find most criminals.

I understand both the skepticism and the idealism. But the reality no longer measures up to the ideal. It isn't the first geek plaything to go sour. They say the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Try this on for size:

http://www.cracked.com/personal-exp...ed-infiltrating-deep-web-child-molesters.html

And even if you didn't listen to a word I say (I would be shocked--shocked!!!--if that should happen) consider this--anyone who cares can use Tor without a public library getting in the middle.

Commander Suzdal said:

And even if you didn't listen to a word I say (I would be shocked--shocked!!!--if that should happen) consider this--anyone who cares can use Tor without a public library getting in the middle.

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In an effort to crack down on TOR, it is rumored the NSA has tried to infiltrate it with tons of bad nodes that they control. The more parts of the path they have, the easier it is to track back to you through analytics and statistics.

The last thing any gov't security agency wants is for it to be installed on a gov't computer as an exit point, because that opens up a whole @#$@# bag of problems...it's spying on your own government branches, which is a sticky thicket.

Commander Suzdal said:

This is rich. Got a woman who is trying to organize libraries across the country to get on the tinfoil hat brigade and offer their patrons anonymized Internet usage to protect our freedoms and privacy. Using a service that is well-known to be a refuge of sexual predators, drug dealers, arms merchants. I'd enjoy sticking a microphone and a camera in her face and asking her why she wants public libraries to buddy up with child molesters.

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Think of the children!

Commander Suzdal said:

This is rich. Got a woman who is trying to organize libraries across the country to get on the tinfoil hat brigade and offer their patrons anonymized Internet usage to protect our freedoms and privacy. Using a service that is well-known to be a refuge of sexual predators, drug dealers, arms merchants. I'd enjoy sticking a microphone and a camera in her face and asking her why she wants public libraries to buddy up with child molesters.

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Just because bad people use a service that anonymizes (or as close as possible to it) data doesn't make the service bad. Or is that what you are arguing?

Let's not forget that the TOR network has already been infiltrated, so it's kind of pointless to use it.

Methadras said:

Just because bad people use a service that anonymizes (or as close as possible to it) data doesn't make the service bad. Or is that what you are arguing?

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I'm kind of free-associating, I guess. The idealistic crusader leading the charge for public libraries to use TOR is very likely, IMHO, to be the sort of person who would be deeply horrified by many of the users of TOR. I find the irony instructive to contemplate.

Personally I don't think it's a good idea for libraries to be mixed up with TOR. We already have too many pervs who use the computers to surf porn and jack off. Why add a new vector for pervs to a place full of children?

I have no qualms about people using Deep Web tools and services on their own. Let the user beware. I prefer not to have it in a library, paid for (to the extent that there are costs associated with setting up and maintaining it) with my taxes.

I'm tired of the government spying on innocent civilians. If you're for that, I think you're an asshole.

rezerekted said:

Think of the children!

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Methadras said:

Let's not forget that the TOR network has already been infiltrated, so it's kind of pointless to use it.

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It was invented by the U.S. department of defense. That should be enough to question it.

timta2 said:

I'm tired of the government spying on innocent civilians. If you're for that, I think you're an asshole.

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I'm tired of civilians spying on innocent assholes. If you're for that, I think you're the government.

Commander Suzdal said:

I'm tired of civilians spying on innocent assholes. If you're for that, I think you're the government.

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I give this post 4 thumbs up

Commander Suzdal said:

This is rich. Got a woman who is trying to organize libraries across the country to get on the tinfoil hat brigade and offer their patrons anonymized Internet usage to protect our freedoms and privacy. Using a service that is well-known to be a refuge of sexual predators, drug dealers, arms merchants. I'd enjoy sticking a microphone and a camera in her face and asking her why she wants public libraries to buddy up with child molesters.

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Ever heard of this thing called "Internet". Lot's of criminals and idiots there. Let's shut it down.

Commander Suzdal said:

This is rich. Got a woman who is trying to organize libraries across the country to get on the tinfoil hat brigade and offer their patrons anonymized Internet usage to protect our freedoms and privacy. Using a service that is well-known to be a refuge of sexual predators, drug dealers, arms merchants. I'd enjoy sticking a microphone and a camera in her face and asking her why she wants public libraries to buddy up with child molesters.

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Tor's highest donor is the US government. It's ok to use this tool you speak of in other countries to promote "freedom" ...but not locally.

Jadawin said:

Ever heard of this thing called "Internet". Lot's of criminals and idiots there. Let's shut it down.

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Golly, I wonder if they use computers too? That's scary. I'm not comfortable with anyone having computers.

Many forget that some Librarians aren't exclusively focused on "shuushing" people and shelving book. Some of them have been staunch defenders of knowledge, privacy, and personal freedoms while serving the greater good of society. Even in the age of the Internet, I think the Library system should expand its focus to providing as much free access to information and media in every way possible and I feel it is one of the better uses of my tax dollars to do so. Imagine for instance if public libraries used some of their funding to purchase access to scholarly journals and LexisNexis, among other archives and indexes that individuals not sponsored by institutions or with a hefty wallet could not easily afford.

One of the very first protests about the over-reach of DHS power after its creation was instituted by public librarians who objected to turning over information on what books/media patrons had checked out. At least in my opinion, this was a laudable act in protecting user privacy from foolish fishing expeditions; prior to 9/11 the idea that the government should be picking through library lending records to find those who may have checked out "subversive" material was laughable.

I don't see any problem with a public library running a TOR node. Like all tools, it can be used for good or ill, but the good by far outway the ill (and lets not forget that much of the "ills" are miscategorized to begin with, such as drug sales and the like). TOR is a fantastic service and is necessary in this day and age, even more than people might think. While dissidents, journalists, whistleblowers and other privacy advocates have a role on darknets, it is helpful and important for "regular" users to have a presence there as well, lest governments (US or otherwise) claim that "only bad people are on TOR". Having each public library run a TOR node (not to mention other darknets like i2p) is a great way to add to the network bandwidth and offer privacy for "normal" use. In fact, I can see the benefit in libraries having "digital privacy" seminars teaching their communities about the dangers we face today from corporate and government (foreign and domestic) data mining, and how to add protection for oneself using commonly available Free / Open Source software.

Somehow I doubt that the local police nor DHS are going to every gun sale/show in New Hampshire and warning the organizers that allowing person-to-person/unlicensed sales of guns without record or background check "could be exploited by criminals" and thus they should shut down those transactions...so why such focus on something like TOR?

Damn, can't edit. Oh, and its notable that Kilton Public Library is running Linux on their PCs, even prior to the TOR node!

Here are a few links if you wish to voice your support.

Kilton Public Library homepage/contact info - http://www.leblibrary.com/node/108
Library Freedom Project - Some of those who helped them set up TOR relays at Kilton and have been mobilizing support against fearmongering. https://libraryfreedomproject.org/
Electronic Frontier Foundation petition - The EFF has come to support the library and the TOR node and has launched a petition to show the community support, even in the face of fearmongering from other actors. https://act.eff.org/action/support-tor-and-intellectual-freedom-in-libraries

Commander Suzdal said:

I understand both the skepticism and the idealism. But the reality no longer measures up to the ideal. It isn't the first geek plaything to go sour. They say the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Try this on for size:

http://www.cracked.com/personal-exp...ed-infiltrating-deep-web-child-molesters.html

And even if you didn't listen to a word I say (I would be shocked--shocked!!!--if that should happen) consider this--anyone who cares can use Tor without a public library getting in the middle.

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Do you really think said people would go to a public library to look for child porn?

westrock2000 said:

It was invented by the U.S. department of defense. That should be enough to question it.

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There is another TOR like service called JAP but it has a backdoor for the German government.

https://anon.inf.tu-dresden.de/index_en.html

Commander Suzdal said:

I'm kind of free-associating, I guess. The idealistic crusader leading the charge for public libraries to use TOR is very likely, IMHO, to be the sort of person who would be deeply horrified by many of the users of TOR. I find the irony instructive to contemplate.

Personally I don't think it's a good idea for libraries to be mixed up with TOR. We already have too many pervs who use the computers to surf porn and jack off. Why add a new vector for pervs to a place full of children?

I have no qualms about people using Deep Web tools and services on their own. Let the user beware. I prefer not to have it in a library, paid for (to the extent that there are costs associated with setting up and maintaining it) with my taxes.

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However, that is a subjective issue and decision and I'm sure it is fraught with danger, but this is all about risk mitigation after all. There are pedos running around doing nothing right now. We know they are pedo, but they've never been caught in the act of their particular brand of evil, but we live in a society that reacts after the fact, not before. That is how our society is structured, that is how are laws are structured, and that is who we are as a people. If you started doing pre-crime as a function of keeping criminals from committing their acts, then that is tyrannical fascism and that's not a society I want to live in. I'll take my chances with the pedo's.

However, if we live in a mobstate, that is no better. Everyone would be ratting out everyone else to gain favor with the state and the secret police entrained to wisk people away never to be seen again. In effect you would be advocating either simply because you see something that has the potential to be used for evil.

M76 said:

Do you really think said people would go to a public library to look for child porn?

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It really doesn't matter if they do or don't, but do you stop a service simply because it could be used in that way?

Xaeos said:

One of the very first protests about the over-reach of DHS power after its creation was instituted by public librarians who objected to turning over information on what books/media patrons had checked out. At least in my opinion, this was a laudable act in protecting user privacy from foolish fishing expeditions; prior to 9/11 the idea that the government should be picking through library lending records to find those who may have checked out "subversive" material was laughable.

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I live in Canada and back in the 80s I was interested to see what was written in a Satanist Bible (I am not a Satanist and am atheist) so I went to the library to see if they had one. They had one but kept it in the"back" and not on the shelves.

I had to provide them with my address before I could check it out. The thing is you have to provide your address when you get a library card anyway. So yea, I was put on a "list" for wanting to see what a Satanist bible contains. So much for freedom of religion in Canada.

M76 said:

Do you really think said people would go to a public library to look for child porn?

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I have read of one case of that happening.

Commander Suzdal said:

We already have too many pervs who use the computers to surf porn and jack off. Why add a new vector for pervs to a place full of children?

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1. It's up to the parents to supervise their children while using a computer.
2. I WANT those pedophile pervs online jacking off to porn. Keep them in their house fapping where they belong. There is no cure for pedophilia. They don't choose to get turned on by kids. Nobody would. We don't get to choose. If we did, I'd choose to get turned on by fat, ugly, short women with bad hair, bad hygiene, a rotten complexion, and a bad disposition. I'd be having so much sex I'd have to quit my job. But life doesn't work like that. We don't get to choose. So hire porn actresses that look like kids to make kiddie porn that entertains the pedo's, and keep them in their own home fapping to their heart's content. Why? because you can't shut it down any more than you can stop drugs getting into the country. Try to control it instead.
But that won't happen. Ever. Because there will always be a bunch of morons that really believe they can control what other people think.
Idiocracy.

nightfly said:

1. It's up to the parents to supervise their children while using a computer.
2. I WANT those pedophile pervs online jacking off to porn. Keep them in their house fapping where they belong. There is no cure for pedophilia. They don't choose to get turned on by kids. Nobody would. We don't get to choose. If we did, I'd choose to get turned on by fat, ugly, short women with bad hair, bad hygiene, a rotten complexion, and a bad disposition. I'd be having so much sex I'd have to quit my job. But life doesn't work like that. We don't get to choose. So hire porn actresses that look like kids to make kiddie porn that entertains the pedo's, and keep them in their own home fapping to their heart's content. Why? because you can't shut it down any more than you can stop drugs getting into the country. Try to control it instead.
But that won't happen. Ever. Because there will always be a bunch of morons that really believe they can control what other people think.
Idiocracy.

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The only way I can make sense of your post as a response to any of mine is to think I was misunderstood somehow. By "the computers," I mean the ones provided for public use in libraries.