The EPA Accidentally Turned This River Toxic And Orange

Megalith

Megalith

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The EPA normally responds to disasters, but this week, they did the complete opposite and accidentally let out a million gallons of contaminated mine water into the Animas River near Durango, Colorado. Considering the fact that contamination is persistent and rivers don't respect borders, the EPA has a huge problem on their hands.

The EPA also revealed their test results---the mine water contains high levels of lead, arsenic, cadmium, and aluminum. The bright orange color comes from sediment. The EPA said the local sheriff's decision to close the river to kayakers and tubers was appropriate given their numbers, though the agency didn't give specifics. The city of Durango has also stopped pumping water from the Animas River into its reservoir.
 
This surprises me not one bit.

I would not be surprised if this "accident" was actually done on purpose.
 
Now that is a proper fuck up. That water way will never be the same and who knows when the water will be safe again.
 
I left this article scratching my head.

It’s a classic case of good intentions backfiring. The abandoned mines in the area have long been a problem, filling up with acidic wastewater that leaches heavy metals out of rock and leaks into the river—a slow-motion environmental debacle. And the EPA has been trying to designate the mines a Superfund site for years, only to come up against local resistance. The mines still aren’t on the Superfund list, but the EPA has been trying to them clean up anyway. That’s why a crew was digging around the Gold King Mine—they starting to investigate leaks when the mine’s plug blew, turning the slow-motion problem into a fast-moving, highly visible advertisement for fixing the problem.
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How exactly is it a case of 'good intentions backfiring'? The EPA has been warning about this for years and making limited efforts to contain and clean it with available funding. It finally blew out and polluted the river.

Maybe we should have paid attention to the EPA before it started leaking? Are they trying to suggest it wouldn't have happened if the EPA hadn't been involved? They say they were investigating leaks when it blew out in the same paragraph.

Sounds to me like they mean nobody would have noticed the leakage if those damn nosy EPA people hadn't been involved. Makes you wonder what else has been covered up by industry over the years.
 
DeathFromBelow said:
Maybe we should have paid attention to the EPA before it started leaking? Are they trying to suggest it wouldn't have happened if the EPA hadn't been involved? They say they were investigating leaks when it blew out in the same paragraph.
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I've seen arguments online from some people who seem to be very anti-EPA, thinking that somehow companies will magically make everything clean if the government would just get out of the way and not enforce these pesky environmental laws. I've never understood this logic either.
 
If that was caused by them digging to measure how much acid was leaking out of those mines, then it was already a disaster that was going to happen anyway. The local residents should have allowed the EPA clean it up when they had the chance.
 
Dr.Diablo said:
Now that is a proper fuck up. That water way will never be the same and who knows when the water will be safe again.
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Well, it's a river. It will flush through.

It might take a while for wildlife to repopulate though.

I'd be more concerned with where it flows out into the ocean, and settles.
 
The sad part is that the Mighty Colorado river, responsible for carving out the grand canyon doesn't even reach the ocean anymore.

It has been overused to the extent where all water is pumped out of it before it reaches the Gulf of Mexico.

So I guess my comment about it flushing out to sea was wrong. It will never reach the sea.
 
sfsuphysics said:
That's kind of like blaming the bomb squad for a bomb exploding when they're trying to handle it.
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Agreed, if you read the article the reason we are in this situation is because a mine which has been unused for 100 years was left in a poor state, and locals scare of what it will do to their property prices have been fighting the EPA from designating it a superfund site, so they can actually bring in the big guns and fix it once and for all.

So, the EPA has instead been taking a more limited approach, doing what they can without a declared superfund site, and the money that comes with it.

The mine was partially plugged up, in order to slow down the nasty shit inside it escaping out into the river, but while the EPA was trying to check on it, and find out just how bad it was, the plug broke, and the nasty shit went streaming out into the river all at once.

The scary part is that there are lots of mines like this in that area, all of which could be fixed, if local residents just allowed them to be declared superfund sites, but instead they are being idiots.

If anything good comes out of this, it might be that the EPA will be allowed to designate this, and the many other similar sites in Colorado as superfund sites and actually deal with them, before they contaminate the water to the point where 30 million people in the southwest are without potable water.
 
tetris42 said:
I've seen arguments online from some people who seem to be very anti-EPA, thinking that somehow companies will magically make everything clean if the government would just get out of the way and not enforce these pesky environmental laws. I've never understood this logic either.
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What bothers me is how people don't seem to notice how blatantly psychopathic it is. 'It's not our fault the mine polluted the river after you told us it would, it's YOUR FAULT for investigating it.' We see criminals do the same sort of mental gymnastics when they get caught and most people seem to be able to recognize it... but they fall for ridiculous headlines like this without question.
 
tetris42 said:
I've seen arguments online from some people who seem to be very anti-EPA, thinking that somehow companies will magically make everything clean if the government would just get out of the way and not enforce these pesky environmental laws. I've never understood this logic either.
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You've never understood the logic because it's illogical. The logic is simple. Maximum profits at any cost that doesn't interfere with the profits. Capitalism 101. Doesn't mean that capitalism is evil but it is indifferent to all other concerns beyond profit. And that's not to say that governments aren't trying to line their pockets as well because they are. But a society ruled by profit maximization is no better than a society ruled by freeloaders because they are one in the same. Except one group has much better stuff. Better than free ObamaPhones at any rate.
 
tetris42 said:
I've seen arguments online from some people who seem to be very anti-EPA, thinking that somehow companies will magically make everything clean if the government would just get out of the way and not enforce these pesky environmental laws. I've never understood this logic either.
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The only reasonable stance on removing/minimizing the EPA has been that we reclassify it under property laws. Seeing pollution as a violation of property law and move it under civil suits. That being said it would require a large move and rewrite of the current structure.

Else you just have the typical ignorance stance of privatizing nearly everything as if private companies would have any interest in the general welfare of a state. Profits != good or bad, maxing profits and productivity doesn't often include long term thinking especially in the world of publicly traded companies.
cyclone3d said:
This surprises me not one bit.

I would not be surprised if this "accident" was actually done on purpose.
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Zarathustra[H];1041782937 said:
Well, it's a river. It will flush through.

It might take a while for wildlife to repopulate though.

I'd be more concerned with where it flows out into the ocean, and settles.
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Pretty much i mean it depends where the river terminates but it wont stay in the river, the issue is the damage to the wild life population and where it settles.
 
The last person to touch it is always at fault.

Remember, Ghostbusters already warned us about the dangers of the EPA!
 
I had read another article somewhere that suggested (maybe incorrectly, I simply don't know) that the EPA's heavy equipment caused the blowout, not that it simply finally gave out. Again, I don't know.

They are of course immune to the same liabilities they enforce on others, hopefully politics still pressures them to do the right thing and take responsibility.
 
Semantics said:
Profits != good or bad, maxing profits and productivity doesn't often include long term thinking especially in the world of publicly traded companies.
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We're so into demonizing everyone and everything these days that everything becomes an epic battle when sometimes it's just plain indifference. If the consequences of actions don't show themselves until years, decades or centuries after their initial cause so what? You're dead and buried and have already reaped the rewards. And compounding these kinds of problems is that few want to pay for the sins of their fathers.

So as pxc pointed out, the last guy touching it is fucked.
 
aardvark sandwich said:
They are of course immune to the same liabilities they enforce on others, hopefully politics still pressures them to do the right thing and take responsibility.
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Take full responsibility for a problem that they pointed out long ago and were ignored? Blaming government for all ills is the same victimhood mentality that conservatives love to warn everyone else about but never seem to realize how often they are guilty of the same.
 
A lot of the imperfections of capitalism continue to propagate down the line when incorporated into the government model. The greed doesn't go away. Have you ever truly seen a selfless politician?

The main difference is that with the continued greed comes newfound privileges not afforded to others
I'm not saying it never works at all, but it quite often has negative ramifications not found in a pure market model.

I guess I'd rather deal with assholes on an equal footing.
 
heatlesssun said:
Take full responsibility for a problem that they pointed out long ago and were ignored? Blaming government for all ills is the same victimhood mentality that conservatives love to warn everyone else about but never seem to realize how often they are guilty of the same.
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how did a river become a democrat/republican issue for you?

lol
 
DeathFromBelow said:
The EPA has been warning about this for years and making limited efforts to contain and clean it with available funding. It finally blew out and polluted the river.
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What better way to get funding for your project than for a major "accident" to happen.
Sound to me like this was a very convenient accident.
 
aardvark sandwich said:
how did a river become a democrat/republican issue for you?

lol
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Human activity is altering this planet and conservatives are ignoring the problem. Much like this case. But hey, let's blame those that made a technical mistake for the cause of the problem.
 
heatlesssun said:
Human activity is altering this planet and conservatives are ignoring the problem. Much like this case. But hey, let's blame those that made a technical mistake for the cause of the problem.
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Who are you even talking about?

Am I ignoring the problem? I just said I hope they fix it.
 
aardvark sandwich said:
A lot of the imperfections of capitalism continue to propagate down the line when incorporated into the government model. The greed doesn't go away. Have you ever truly seen a selfless politician?

The main difference is that with the continued greed comes newfound privileges not afforded to others
I'm not saying it never works at all, but it quite often has negative ramifications not found in a pure market model.

I guess I'd rather deal with assholes on an equal footing.
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All I am saying is that every long term and serious human endeavor cannot be for maximum profit for the few. Left unchecked the motive for more and more profits for fewer and fewer leads to death and destruction. I'm under no pretense that government is the only solution to this problem and I firmly believe that free market capitalism is a great liberator. But there's not such thing as limitless freedom otherwise there would be no need for things like a 13th Amendment.
 
aardvark sandwich said:
Who are you even talking about?

Am I ignoring the problem? I just said I hope they fix it.
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Fix it, of course. But it probably would have been better that those that put that crap there in the first place hadn't. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
 
aardvark sandwich said:
I had read another article somewhere that suggested (maybe incorrectly, I simply don't know) that the EPA's heavy equipment caused the blowout, not that it simply finally gave out. Again, I don't know.
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The best description I've found so far of the actual event is this first-hand account:

EPA workers triggered the spill Wednesday morning while they were investigating a worsening acid discharge from Gold King and three other mines in the mountains north of Silverton.

They were using a heavy digging machine. EPA's on-scene coordinator, Hays Griswold, said "We were investigating where we could put in a pipe" to try to drain rising waters inside the mine. The EPA crew had stopped working momentarily.

"We had found the hard rock I wanted to find overhead," Griswold said. "All of a sudden, there was a little spurt from the top."

Then a flood of the built-up acid discharge blew through lose dirt, the only barrier between the collapsing mine portal and waterways. The bright orange wave tore down into Cement Creek, which flows into the Animas River.
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http://www.denverpost.com/environme...r-spill-leaves-durango-officials-edge-waiting

Sounds to me like they were in the process of trying to stop what was going to happen anyway. Emphasis on "worsening acid discharge" and "try to drain rising waters inside the mine".
 
Is not at least as important to understand why this sludge was left there for so long after warning as it is to point fingers at the immediate cause of this situation?
 
aardvark sandwich said:
A lot of the imperfections of capitalism continue to propagate down the line when incorporated into the government model. The greed doesn't go away. Have you ever truly seen a selfless politician?

The main difference is that with the continued greed comes newfound privileges not afforded to others
I'm not saying it never works at all, but it quite often has negative ramifications not found in a pure market model.

I guess I'd rather deal with assholes on an equal footing.
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So wait, I'm confused. It was the EPA's greed of wanting to be funded that caused this accident, therefore capitalism is the answer?
 
evilsofa said:
The best description I've found so far of the actual event is this first-hand account:



http://www.denverpost.com/environme...r-spill-leaves-durango-officials-edge-waiting

Sounds to me like they were in the process of trying to stop what was going to happen anyway. Emphasis on "worsening acid discharge" and "try to drain rising waters inside the mine".
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They certainly succeeded in draining the rising waters inside the mine.

It seems a competent crew would have made accommodations to contain a worse case scenario. One doesn't go poking holes in these things without some idea of the situation and consequences.
 
heatlesssun said:
Human activity is altering this planet and conservatives are ignoring the problem. Much like this case. But hey, let's blame those that made a technical mistake for the cause of the problem.
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Liberals would have us go back to the stone age if it would prevent the death of a bird. Oh, except when it gets in the way of Big Green Money. Remember Obama, liberals' master and god, when he gave solar power companies the ability to ignore liability for their solar farms that kill thousands of birds every year? And I mean high, high thousands.

But here's the best thing about liberals, they never think of the future nor of financial consequences. They only think about what their emotions are telling them at that particular moment. Or what some high power liberal is telling them to think. Its well known that in Cali, you can get just about any liberal bill passed. However, they never know how to pay for it.

Sorry, I digress. I just had to answer the ridiculous conservative bashing by a blinded liberal. But hey, at least he didn't blame Bush for the river accident. That's a step in the right direction I think.

Unfortunately, under Obama, the government has screwed up worse than any moment in my memory of previous history. Guess what happens to those entities? Nothing. Maybe someone gets fired, but they'll probably land a cushy job in a college somewhere.
 
tetris42 said:
So wait, I'm confused. It was the EPA's greed of wanting to be funded that caused this accident, therefore capitalism is the answer?
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I actually didn't mean to refer to this incident for that comment.

Speaking on a broad term, as everyone else seemed to be doing.

In general, yes the EPA has too much power in my view. They have the ability under the clean water act to declare essentially anything a wetlands and have a land grab. They can exercise eminent domain, confiscating land from owners or simply forbidding them to use it, while still insisting the owners pay taxes on it. Want to apply for a permit? That will be $100,000. Please and thank you.

Theft.
 
aardvark sandwich said:
In general, yes the EPA has too much power in my view. They have the ability under the clean water act to declare essentially anything a wetlands and have a land grab. They can exercise eminent domain, confiscating land from owners or simply forbidding them to use it, while still insisting the owners pay taxes on it. Want to apply for a permit? That will be $100,000. Please and thank you.

Theft.
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In this case, local officials in Silverton were successful in fending off the EPA, who had wanted to designate the mines a Superfund site for years. The locals didn't want the Superfund designation because that would have hurt tourism.

The locals had your attitude towards the EPA. You are now seeing the consequences of that attitude. If the EPA had gone in the way it wanted to a decade or two ago, this would not have happened.
 
You know I am generally for limited government but there is a place for government. Public health and safety is one of those things. Public interest is not on the list of priorities in for profit companies. (I think capitalism is the best system in the world but it has to have some oversight for safety)
 
tetris42 said:
I've seen arguments online from some people who seem to be very anti-EPA, thinking that somehow companies will magically make everything clean if the government would just get out of the way and not enforce these pesky environmental laws. I've never understood this logic either.
Click to expand...

I think some of the heartburn is because, although there are some companies that do try to use the environment as a toilet, there are companies that try to do the right thing, but the systems they have in place fail. The EPA wouldn't give a shit, best of intentions or not. Also if the company was in dire financial straights, the EPA couldn't give a shit either.

And nothing will happen to anyone because of this except a wrist slap to the actual workers if they somehow triggered this with improper procedures .
 
aardvark sandwich said:
A lot of the imperfections of capitalism continue to propagate down the line when incorporated into the government model. The greed doesn't go away. Have you ever truly seen a selfless politician?

The main difference is that with the continued greed comes newfound privileges not afforded to others
I'm not saying it never works at all, but it quite often has negative ramifications not found in a pure market model.
Click to expand...
The market model is this: One company does everything it can for the profits, and the environment be damned. Sells off the problem assets to a shell company for a pittance. Liquidates the initial company.
No one left to pick up the mess. Has happened before, will happen again. Corporations exist for one reason; to make money for it's executives and investors. Everybody else gets screwed; workers, customers, society. Too bad. That's the way the free market works.

I'm just glad I'm not living downstream from that mess. Instead I live in the toxic waste mess known as New Jersey. One town over in each direction is a superfund site. NO surprise there at all.
 
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