Grand Theft Auto V IQ Features Performance - Part 3 @ [H]

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FrgMstr

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Grand Theft Auto V IQ Features Performance - Part 3 - In our second to last in-depth evaluation into Grand Theft Auto V on the PC we dive into each feature and find out how demanding each feature truly is. We look at FXAA, MSAA, Reflection MSAA, TXAA, as well as Tessellation, Grass, and Extended Distance Scaling performance.
 
I'm thoroughly confused. Not a single good thing said about MSAA's visual impact, only talking shit about the performance impact. Is this an image quality review or not?

Based on previous articles in this series, along with responses in the forums to concerns regarding dismissal of MSAA options in this game, I have to ask... Brent, what exactly is your problem with MSAA? Why are you on such a crusade to prove FXAA is sufficient?

It's disingenuous to include results saying FXAA reduces aliasing on everything in-game when it does not; I will post screenshots later to PROVE you are wrong in that conclusion. There is a massive IQ difference.

MSAA + FXAA produces incredibly detailed visuals, free of aliasing. Your refusal to acknowledge that is very concerning.
 
Daroller said:
I'm thoroughly confused. Not a single good thing said about MSAA's visual impact, only talking shit about the performance impact. Is this an image quality review or not?
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As clearly stated in the title, "IQ Features PERFORMANCE" article. So to directly answer your question above, no.
 
I like to see continuing test on this game.
Will be looking forward to the shadow testing.
I have found that "softest" with "half-vsync" yields the best performance for my 7950/1100t combo @ 1080p. But sometimes when starting the game, i have a strange square boundry around my character, and if i switch between AMD CHS and then back to softest, it fixes that.
 
Daroller said:
I'm thoroughly confused. Not a single good thing said about MSAA's visual impact, only talking shit about the performance impact. Is this an image quality review or not?
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It is not.

It is a feature performance impact review.

regarding dismissal of MSAA options in this game
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5 pages of AA testing in this article + focus on MSAA and Reflection MSAA performance contradict your statement.

I have to ask... Brent, what exactly is your problem with MSAA?
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From a technical, and performance standpoint, MSAA is outdated. This is my personal opinion.

From a factual scientific standpoint, MSAA's disadvantage with rendering AA in games is that it can only work on polygon edges, not textures or alpha textures or anything that isn't a polygon. It also demands a heavy burden on performance that takes away from other in-game settings.

Its method of brute force rendering is an outdated idea. There are more efficient ways to reduce aliasing on pixels using more intelligent sample patterns that MSAA just isn't equipped to do. This is why you see both NVIDIA and AMD trying to create a new AA method every generation so you can bypass MSAA and use a more effective method. Hey, it's not just me, it is AMD and NVIDIA both saying MSAA is highly inefficient.

Reference: NVIDIA CSAA, HRAA, Quincunx, MFAA, FXAA / AMD MLAA, EQAA, CFAA, SMAA etc.......

Why are you on such a crusade to prove FXAA is sufficient?
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FXAA may not be the perfect answer, in fact I think SMAA is better and probably better things to come still in the future. IMO, shader based AA is the future. I said it in 2011, and I'm saying it again in 2015.

Just like Anisostropic filtering concerns vanished, and it is pretty much a given now in games, so will AA one day. AA needs to be a given, it needs to be fast, cost little in performance (only a few percent) and provide full-scene alias reduction on everything from polygon edges, to alpha textures, to everything in-between.

Only a shader based post-processing affect can accomplish these tasks. There are different kinds that exist, I wish to see them improved. FXAA is what this game supports so as far as this game is concerned, that's the only shader based AA method we have to use. The performance benefits of FXAA allow us to enable other in-game features than if we were using MSAA.

It's disingenuous to include results saying FXAA reduces aliasing on everything in-game when it does not; I will post screenshots later to PROVE you are wrong in that conclusion. There is a massive IQ difference.
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In our image quality evaluation I will have screenshot comparisons.

In the meantime, I suggest hitting up past HardOCP FXAA screenshot evaluations and checking out other articles on the web to see the advantages it can have over MSAA.

https://www.google.com/search?q=fxa...ceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8#q=hardocp+fxaa
 
cinnamonandgravy said:
everyone knows downsampling + smaa + msaa + transparency aa is the only true path to IQ nirvana :cool:
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Maybe so but you have to realize that this is a review about the performance hit that the settings make on the game. The Image Quality review is the next installment.

I hope there is a Project Cars test after that. :)
 
I know FXAA got a bad name here.

Since BF3 and Skyrim famously fucked-up their included FXAA mode, most games have included proper sharpening filters when FXAA is selected. I no-longer see blurring of flat textures with games like BF4 and Borderlands: TPS with FXAA enabled, so it works well. The same is true for GTA V, where there no perceptible change in texture quality with FXAA.

So I'm in agreement here: you only enable MSAA + FXAA if you have FPS to kill, and want slightly better edges. FXAA, and SMAA are the future here :D
 
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Great analysis, thanks.

I'm pretty new to the GTX980 having just upgraded last week from a 290x.
I came across an AA setting called MFAA (Multi Framed Sampled AA) which is reported to change the effect and performance of MSAA.
It is said to be better looking and about half the performance cost.
http://www.geforce.co.uk/hardware/technology/mfaa/technology
How does this figure in the AA stakes?

Also DSR (VSR for AMD) is worth a look.
On my old 290x @1080p, VSR 2560x1440 with FXAA looked very good and performed well, better than 4xMSAA imo.

I cant try DSR on my 980, it doesnt give any effect and makes the NVidia control panel not open once enabled.
Only a driver wipe and re-install gets the control panel back, tried multiple times!
Hopefully its just an early driver glitch.
 
cptnjarhead said:
I like to see continuing test on this game.
Will be looking forward to the shadow testing.
I have found that "softest" with "half-vsync" yields the best performance for my 7950/1100t combo @ 1080p. But sometimes when starting the game, i have a strange square boundry around my character, and if i switch between AMD CHS and then back to softest, it fixes that.
Click to expand...

I actually had this same issue in the single player part of the game with my GTX980. I had PCSS shadows enabled and when my charater would go into a shadow from say a building or I was in a heli high up. I would see a square box where my shadow should have been. I had to switch it to Softest for it go away.
 
I have tried FXAA, and i just can't use it, game looks terrible to me, and i always end up going back to 2xMSAA(MFAA). This is at 2560x1440 res.
 
Nenu said:
Great analysis, thanks.

I'm pretty new to the GTX980 having just upgraded last week from a 290x.
I came across an AA setting called MFAA (Multi Framed Sampled AA) which is reported to change the effect and performance of MSAA.
It is said to be better looking and about half the performance cost.
http://www.geforce.co.uk/hardware/technology/mfaa/technology
How does this figure in the AA stakes?

Also DSR (VSR for AMD) is worth a look.
On my old 290x @1080p, VSR 2560x1440 with FXAA looked very good and performed well, better than 4xMSAA imo.

I cant try DSR on my 980, it doesnt give any effect and makes the NVidia control panel not open once enabled.
Only a driver wipe and re-install gets the control panel back, tried multiple times!
Hopefully its just an early driver glitch.
Click to expand...

MFAA requires 2xMSAA at least, so you'll still get a huge hit.

DSR, once you tick the boxes in there, will allow you to choose those resolutions inside the game.
 
trandoanhung1991 said:
MFAA requires 2xMSAA at least, so you'll still get a huge hit.

DSR, once you tick the boxes in there, will allow you to choose those resolutions inside the game.
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MFAA modifies MSAA, for sure MSAA has to be selected otherwise MFAA has no effect.
According to the NVidia document, MFAA 4x has the same performance penalty as MSAA 2x.
The point of it is much less performance hit and supposedly looks better.
Which is why I hoped to see it in the evaluation.

I have used AMDs VSR and really like it.
I hoped to use DSR but when I enable it by ticking any of the resolution boxes, it never enables.
If I close the NVidia control panel, it will not open from then on until I use a driver cleaner to remove the driver and re-install.
So basically, when I enable DSR, I get an instant driver bork and have no control panel!
Tested many times you can be sure, one of those things.
 
defaultluser said:
I know FXAA got a bad name here.

Since BF3 and Skyrim famously fucked-up their included FXAA mode, most games have included proper sharpening filters when FXAA is selected. I no-longer see blurring of flat textures with games like BF4 and Borderlands: TPS with FXAA enabled, so it works well. The same is true for GTA V, where there no perceptible change in texture quality with FXAA.

So I'm in agreement here: you only enable MSAA + FXAA if you have FPS to kill, and want slightly better edges. FXAA, and SMAA are the future here :D
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normally I would agree, but in GTA V FXAA just looks terrible. It's not so much the blur but the shimmering it adds to objects in motion. Completely understandable that some would not be bothered by this though, it's really down to personal preference.

Also, 3440x1440 (all settings maxed except for Very High Grass) with a Titan X my framerates are really good when not in the countryside - 45-50+ usually. They can drop to the 30s in the countryside with a lot of grass, but that's okay, even when going with FXAA only I still drop into the 40s. So having MSAA on is definitely worth the hit for me.

My framerate goes to hell if Ultra grass is enabled but I don't see much of a benefit from enabling it vs having MSAA on, so I leave that on Very High.
 
Nenu said:
MFAA modifies MSAA, for sure MSAA has to be selected otherwise MFAA has no effect.
According to the NVidia document, MFAA 4x has the same performance penalty as MSAA 2x.
The point of it is much less performance hit and supposedly looks better.
Which is why I hoped to see it in the evaluation.

I have used AMDs VSR and really like it.
I hoped to use DSR but when I enable it by ticking any of the resolution boxes, it never enables.
If I close the NVidia control panel, it will not open from then on until I use a driver cleaner to remove the driver and re-install.
So basically, when I enable DSR, I get an instant driver bork and have no control panel!
Tested many times you can be sure, one of those things.
Click to expand...

In case you missed it, just clicking "OK" isn't enough. At the bottom of the panel, on the right, there's an "Apply" button. Click it, and then your screen should black out for a few seconds. Afterwards, you should have access to those resolutions.

P.S. It's not uncommon for me to have the Control Panel freeze up when I click on the DSR sections. I guess it's accessing my system, and there's some kind of a pause connected to that. So, if you try again, allow it some time.
 
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Excellent article. Not a whole lot of reviews like this online. I learn a shit ton when you guys do these.

I generally never use the high AA settings anyway because I play fast action games like Batman, Dead Space or other shooters. For those, the visual difference with FXAA is pretty much non existent to me unless you specifically stop to wander around a look at stuff to compare. I recently upgraded to a 144 Hz monitor so now more than ever am I willing to trade some AA off for some higher frame rates to keep as close as possible to that golden 144 fps number.
 
Thanks guys, good read.

Another setting worth reducing is shadow quality and using softer shadows.

I think something like grass:high + shadow quality:high (+softer) with the advanced settings off can work with 2x MSAA and FXAA and looks pretty good. I'm pretty bigoted when it comes to jaggies so ymmv as always. Cheers.
 
Babel-17 said:
In case you missed it, just clicking "OK" isn't enough. At the bottom of the panel, on the right, there's an "Apply" button. Click it, and then your screen should black out for a few seconds. Afterwards, you should have access to those resolutions.
Click to expand...
I always click apply, leaving control panel open most of the time.
When it was still open I could cancel DSR and continue as normal but DSR hasnt ever functioned.

When I close control panel with DSR enabled, it wil not open again except for one condition:
I hadnt installed the 3D apps and added them to the current driver install.
Then control panel opened but it had only the 3D section.

Enabling DSR removes access to everything that is installed, the menus vanish and DSR does not function at all.
I do not get access to the extra resolutions.
I know what to look for because I've used AMDs VSR which also provides higher resolutions in game.

P.S. It's not uncommon for me to have the Control Panel freeze up when I click on the DSR sections. I guess it's accessing my system, and there's some kind of a pause connected to that. So, if you try again, allow it some time.
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Control panel didnt freeze up, it remains responsive without any delays while it is still open.
Even after a reboot I have no control panel once DSR is enabled.
It just refuses to open again once it is closed after I enable DSR.
The only remedy is to run a driver cleaner and re-install the driver.

I verified it 3 times with exactly the same result.
I will wait for the next driver and try again.
 
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A lot of hard work there, thank you. Is there going to be a Part 4 on CPU core scaling? As a poster-child for the next generation of games, it would be very useful and interesting to see how GTA scales with the number of CPU cores available, and if hyperthreading makes a positive difference vs real cores. I don't suppose you have one of the new 15+ core Xeon E5 v3s or E7 v3s around?
 
Quartz-1 said:
A lot of hard work there, thank you. Is there going to be a Part 4 on CPU core scaling? As a poster-child for the next generation of games, it would be very useful and interesting to see how GTA scales with the number of CPU cores available, and if hyperthreading makes a positive difference vs real cores. I don't suppose you have one of the new 15+ core Xeon E5 v3s or E7 v3s around?
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Lets not forget the older CPU's! Interested to see how a Phenom x965 @4ghz stacks up against an FX or i3
 
cageymaru said:
Maybe so but you have to realize that this is a review about the performance hit that the settings make on the game. The Image Quality review is the next installment.

I hope there is a Project Cars test after that. :)
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HERE! HERE! Project Cars review!!!!

ColonelBlimp said:
Lets not forget the older CPU's! Interested to see how a Phenom x965 @4ghz stacks up against an FX or i3
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x965 vs FX vs i3???....... I think you posted that in the wrong community forum.....
 
MacLeod said:
I generally never use the high AA settings anyway because I play fast action games like Batman, Dead Space or other shooters. For those, the visual difference with FXAA is pretty much non existent to me unless you specifically stop to wander around a look at stuff to compare. I recently upgraded to a 144 Hz monitor so now more than ever am I willing to trade some AA off for some higher frame rates to keep as close as possible to that golden 144 fps number.
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I'd agree with you in anything except this game. There's so many small details that FXAA or SMAA (via ReShade+SweetFx) doesn't do well. One of the more annoying issues is how hair and beards look all dithered and awful unless using MSAA or TXAA. For some reason there is a huge visible difference despite only antialiasing has changed.
 
Do you think you could add some multi-GPU MSAA results as well? It would be interesting to see if Titan X SLI or 980 SLI can run away from 970 SLI when MSAA is added.
 
Excellent review. Really interesting seeing the performance hits of the various features.

I like that both AMD and Nvidias' techs can be tested and used on either brands' hardware.
 
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