Valve's Paid Skyrim Mods Are a Legal, Ethical and Creative Disaster

CommanderFrank

CommanderFrank

Cat Can't Scratch It
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Valve and Bethesda have jointly opened an online Skyrim mod store. Should be good for the community, right? Well according to the comments from a large number of fans and game modders alike, not so much. :eek: Thanks to Forum member lcpiper for the linkage.

Skyrim mod store is an absolutely terrible idea for reasons that are already becoming clear even in the first day after launch.
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selling mods is low but a mere 25% for the people doing all the work is more like evil. fuck you valve
 
I'm not inherently opposed to the idea. The concept is great. It should, in theory, lead to higher quality mods on a scale similar to falksaar or nehrim.

However, Valve's attitude towards stolen mods being sold, their lack of policing/filtering for this, and the horribly low 25% creators get is sad and wrong.

This could be good. It has potential. I just hope that Valve/Zenimax/Bethesda work to meaningfully improve the system and address concerns, rather than turning a blind eye.
 
dgz said:
selling mods is low but a mere 25% for the people doing all the work is more like evil. fuck you valve
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Valve isn't the one getting 75% ... They are getting the same 30% they get from every transaction (and that every other store collects) ... Bethesda is the one taking 45% so more vitriol should be directed at them
 
The new Unreal Tournament will be build around the same concept of selling user created contents. Just a wild guess, but I think Bethesda is probably testing the water for a similar concept to be used in their future title, maybe Fallout 4.

I know the new UT is different from Skyrim, of course as Skyrim wasn't build around such concept. But it's the best platform Bethesda have to test this concept as user content plays a big role in Skyrim. It is a mess too, but I guess that's what testing is for. You need to run into problems to know what are the potential problems (ie. content rights, revenue distribution, etc), and fix it in the new game that will actually be build around this idea.
 
kbrickley said:
Bethesda is the one taking 45% so more vitriol should be directed at them
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Because Bethesda is the one that controls the Steam marketplace and decides on income distribution... Its Valve's house, and they decide the policies.
 
Valve is giving the nexus mod community proceeds from Valve's cut if the mod publisher opts in. It's almost as if they are trying to bribe them to be on Valve's side.
 
Most of these people were getting nothing or very little before, this gives them another option. It also gives them the option to get an official channel that is probably also really easy to get working for people who are not computer literate which is the vast majority of gamers. If they don't like it? They are free to keep giving the mod away. As for people stealing your mod? Whoa, we actually have a recourse to stop that. As someone whos IP was stolen many times I can tell you the normal system doesn't do shit to stop that the system you are all clamoring to defend. Its not just about people grabbing the whole thing but copying, modifying your work etc.... Now with valve and an official channel valve can ban an account if someone takes work that is not their own, they can withhold money until something is sorted out etc.... Nothing ever stopped anyone from making a website and selling other peoples work before. Good grief the author is dumb as shit. He keeps citing instances of clear copy right infringement and saying oh look this is bad, the moron doesn't realize the copy right was stolen before this even went into place the only difference is before because there was not money to be made copy right holders didn't have any money to try and protect their IP not they might actually have some money. This valve thing might actually get the gaming crowd as a whole to wake the fuck up about all the IP theft they seem to never stop doing and thinking is OK.

It is amazing how short sighted and dumb people are you take the same exact situation change one little variable in and suddenly people freak out and think its completely new and completely wrong. The only thing I can think of about why people are freaking out is probably something similar to selling used games on consoles you fear that companies will lock down things so you can only use this system and your free junk will disappear but I ask you is that what happened with the google play store? No not at all you can get almost everything for free now in the google play store.
 
25% is far better than the 10% musicians used to get and can make someone a millionaire overnight.
 
Ducman69 said:
Because Bethesda is the one that controls the Steam marketplace and decides on income distribution... Its Valve's house, and they decide the policies.
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And if valve makes policies that do not make the studios that sell their games on steam happy those studios will look toward other solutions like maybe origin.
 
Ducman69 said:
Because Bethesda is the one that controls the Steam marketplace and decides on income distribution... Its Valve's house, and they decide the policies.
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Steam's success rely on publishers selling their games on Steam, especially now where there are competing DD services such as Uplay and Origin. So I'd imagine the publishers have as much say at the negotiation table. If Valve cannot agree to their demands , the publishers can take their game elsewhere.
 
TheOneKnownAsMe said:
I'm not inherently opposed to the idea. The concept is great. It should, in theory, lead to higher quality mods on a scale similar to falksaar or nehrim.
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Gabe has come out and explicitly said they will do ZERO, I repeat ZERO, quality checking. This will be as bad as the Google/Apple stores before they policed their work.

Buried below you will have the Chinese "app factories" spitting out crappy DLC (we shouldn't even call it "mods" anymore) and using upvote-farms to get theirs shot to the top of all the charts, that people buy and breaks two weeks later with the next game update, with no incentive to fix it after people have already paid for it and are past the 24 hour return period, and instead will just release a new mod that you can again buy for $2. Then of course you have your rush of people that are finding free mods and uploading it as their own to make a quick buck. And Gabe loves that, because every time you pay more, they get another cut of the action for doing literally nothing.

And all the collaborative work that is at the heart of literally every popular mod that I have used at least, forget about it. Once you introduce money, the agreements in the mod community where you could distribute and further modify it as long as it wasn't for commercial purposes will be over. It will attract a new breed of modders that will jealously guard their mods, and so now you're installing a crapton of individual mods which will likely break other popular mods, and before you know it it will be like Train Simulator 2013 which literally has over $2000 worth of DLC to make it complete... not a joke, google it.

Valve are literally taking a pound of flesh and not doing any police work to justify the expense to the consumer, when the system gamers have enjoyed not only worked well, but was free. And before you say, well no big deal I'll just go to Nexus and what not to get the mods for free... nope, they are already being pulled from Nexus and available only behind the Steam paywall. Mods that people have enjoyed for free for ages and distributed over the vast interwebz and picked up by others to include in packages with credit or modify to be complaint with game updates, all now locked down and quickly adding up to more than the cost of the original game.

This sucks, as the modding community was one of the main selling points over why PC was masterrace over consoles who only had expensive DLC.
 
The consumer can easily research if a mod is worth buying or not so if they buy a junk mod it is their fault for not researching first.
 
Ducman69 said:
Because Bethesda is the one that controls the Steam marketplace and decides on income distribution... Its Valve's house, and they decide the policies.
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I would be surprised if Valve was the one who arbitrarily decided on giving Bethesda 45% ... for the percentage to be higher than their own I am sure it was a negotiation and that is what Bethesda demanded

Personally, given all the push back on this I think the paid mod model should be totally abandoned (including the donation model as well ... which violates the DMCA) ... mods should be completely and totally free with no monetary exchange of any sort (since that would violate the original copyright holder's IP) ... I think we could all agree that this would be an acceptable compromise that would keep the mods alive but not violate the rights of the developers either

Alternately they could change the paid model so that all paid mods are IAP so they receive ongoing support (which would resolve the support concerns that some people have) ... and again, as long as we eliminate any form of monetary exchange between users and modders (for non IAP mods) we should have an acceptable system for both the users and the developers
 
kbrickley said:
I would be surprised if Valve was the one who arbitrarily decided on giving Bethesda 45% ... for the percentage to be higher than their own I am sure it was a negotiation and that is what Bethesda demanded
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Compared to the whopping 0% of money that both Valve and Bethseda enjoyed before they licked their lips and started putting modders in pretty dresses with bright red lipstick and throwing quarters on the dance floor...

No matter how you slice it, modders are getting shafted, and Valve and Bethseda worked out a deal between each other to take a lions share for literally zero extra work on their part.

If you wanted to show appreciation to modders, a simple "donate" hyperlink would have sufficed, with perhaps no more than a 10% transaction fee by Valve since they have said time and time again that they will do zero policing and thus really have no costs or risks involved.
 
So who owns/controls the mod once it's put up for sale? As long as it's still the creator's property and they can distribute it elsewhere if they wish I think this is fine.

Pay a premium for ease of use on steam, or pick it up for free (if the mod maker chooses to offer it) the traditional way. You could always donate to your favorite modder...
 
Ducman69 said:
Compared to the whopping 0% of money that both Valve and Bethseda enjoyed before they licked their lips and started putting modders in pretty dresses with bright red lipstick and throwing quarters on the dance floor...

No matter how you slice it, modders are getting shafted, and Valve and Bethseda worked out a deal between each other to take a lions share for literally zero extra work on their part.

If you wanted to show appreciation to modders, a simple "donate" hyperlink would have sufficed, with perhaps no more than a 10% transaction fee by Valve since they have said time and time again that they will do zero policing and thus really have no costs or risks involved.
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I think you have to go all or nothing ... donating to a modder for a specific mod without giving a cut to the original IP owner (who made it possible for the mod to exist) probably should be illegal unless the IP holder permits it ... I think they should abandon this Steam model due to the controversy and switch to an IAP model instead so that the paid mods are supported by the developer and modder to become IAP ... if the mod is not IAP then it must be completely and totally free ... that would seem to be the best overall compromise ... it permits free mods to continue and paid mods to be added ... a true win-win scenario ... there should be no online way to officially donate for mods (although if people want to send checks or cash to modders that would be impossible to regulate ... as long as the modders don't violate the tax laws)
 
The biggest problem with "officially" sanctioned paid mods, is that mod development will grind to a halt. The main reason mods in general have prospered is that they all are from a big collaborative effort. Once money gets introduced, that collaboration dies. Now everyone will work on their own, essentially making every modder start from scratch instead of logically progressing other people's previous work. People say this will lead to higher quality, but IMHO it will make for worse quality overall mainly due to the reinvention of wheel problem to avoid legal issues, and of course the scammers that will pop out of the woodwork that take free mods, change the name, place it on steam as paid for and collect money for stolen works. Valve says the "community" will police it, but that is just BS. Valve is getting a cut, so they better earn their keep and do the policing it's their dam platform.

This also removes the "donation" button for any free mod. Many modders give their stuff for free but usually have a donation button should anyone want to say thanks for your hard work. That will disappear because Bethesda won't get a cut. That will mean they will most likely police that very strictly in the future. People seem to think it's a black and white issue when money is involved but it's not, it's always shades of grey.

The split is highway robbery also 45/30/25 where the modder is the one getting 25 is ludicrous. At worst it should be 35/30/35. Maybe if Skyrim were given away to a modder to make mods for it for free then I could see them getting a majority split, but outside that this is just a good old fashioned mugging. I know I would give a donation to a modder if their mod is really useful to me in game, but knowing this is the split, I'd never pay a penny for any mod cause the split is not mainly going to the modder but Bethesda and I already paid them and I needed the modder to fix their program to work the way I want it to.

And the biggest problem with it is there are no refunds on paid mods. Don't kid yourself what Valve calls a refund is not a refund. If you pay via a CC or Paypal then the money should be refunded via a CC or paypal. If it is NOT, then it is a STORE CREDIT. You can't use that money anywhere else, it is lost to you for anything unrelated to the Steam Store.
 
kbrickley said:
I think you have to go all or nothing ... donating to a modder for a specific mod without giving a cut to the original IP owner (who made it possible for the mod to exist) probably should be illegal unless the IP holder permits it ...
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Why?

I have a 460hp Corvette, with LG Pro longtube headers, ceramic coated GTP heads, Borla exhaust, carbon fiber intake, etc... why should I have to go to a Chevy dealership and pay Chevy and the dealership a 75% cut to allow me to install mods?

Its my car, I bought it, and if I want to throw a Borla exhaust on there I pay Borla. That's it. Same if I want to change the airconditioner or roof on my house, I don't pay Perry Homes 75% because they built the house. Why are video games different?
 
Ducman69 said:
Why?

I have a 460hp Corvette, with LG Pro longtube headers, ceramic coated GTP heads, Borla exhaust, carbon fiber intake, etc... why should I have to go to a Chevy dealership and pay Chevy and the dealership a 75% cut to allow me to install mods?

Its my car, I bought it, and if I want to throw a Borla exhaust on there I pay Borla. That's it. Same if I want to change the airconditioner or roof on my house, I don't pay Perry Homes 75% because they built the house. Why are video games different?
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You don't own your game though, you just have a license to use a game only in the ways the license authorizes.

Is that messed up? Yes. But that's why it's different.
 
Know what this will lead to? Developers making cores of games, virtually unpopulated, while everybody else actually makes all the content, and instead of buying a game, or hell even buying a game and having to fork over money for a DLC, you'll have to fork over $60 for a game engine and get nickle and dimed to death for any and all content.
 
I think it's a great idea for Valve to continue being an industry leader in monetizing game content in new ways to take advantage of the large amount of discretionary income gamers have at their disposal. Turning fans who purchase the game into profit is good, but making even more money from fans by turning their mods into microtransaction DLC will reap huge rewards for both Valve and Bethesda. Plus, as people have already mentioned, mods will improve in quality as professionals who are after income will enter the modding market place and shoulder aside people who make mods because they like the game. It means Bethesda can literally make money from bug fixes that the modding community offers (like unofficial patches and stuff) so they don't need to go support the game with patches or updates. Its cheaper for them and the games will get updates from people motivated to earn money. This is going to be totally awesome and revolutionary in the gaming industry! I absolutely love the direction this will take the PC gaming master race!
 
Ducman69 said:
Why?

I have a 460hp Corvette, with LG Pro longtube headers, ceramic coated GTP heads, Borla exhaust, carbon fiber intake, etc... why should I have to go to a Chevy dealership and pay Chevy and the dealership a 75% cut to allow me to install mods?

Its my car, I bought it, and if I want to throw a Borla exhaust on there I pay Borla. That's it. Same if I want to change the airconditioner or roof on my house, I don't pay Perry Homes 75% because they built the house. Why are video games different?
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Cars are not a valid comparison ... most people are modding their own vehicles and people that share mods are not usually selling them to each other ... a car is also covered by patent law and not copyright law usually ... violating patent law has a totally different set of criteria than violating copyright law

A software modder always has the right to do what he wants to non-online programs for his own personal use (online programs are more heavily restricted due to competitive concerns and the interaction of the clients with the global servers) ... and if he chooses to share this mods for free most companies don't have an issue with this sharing ... however, if he starts to receive compensation for the mods (even through donations) he is being compensated for work that was done leveraging another person's IP ... and that could be construed legally as a copyright violation (unless he or she received permission to do so)

A better example would likely be in music ... if you are a professional or doing something where you profit from the music then you should be paying the song owner if you decide to cover their music (even if you make slight acoustical changes to it) ... mods should be no different ... if it is a standalone product totally written by the creator then it can be sold or given away at the creator's discretion (just like the app stores work) ... if you are modifying someone else's original work to create your product then the original IP owner should be compensated if you try to profit or receive revenue from your work (unless it is open source work and not copyrighted ... and in that case there are all kinds of rules about how revenue and credit should work, developed by the open source community)
 
Kueller said:
You don't own your game though, you just have a license to use a game only in the ways the license authorizes.
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Exactly, which is why IP is so retarded, where I can't even buy a game anymore I can only rent the opportunity to play it for ~$60 for however long the publishers thinks I should be able to.

Imagine if that applied to everything else you "buy"... buy a house and want to paint the walls? You have to call the home builder and ask them if they offer/allow that, and how much they will charge to allow you to pay someone else to paint your home. Buy a kitchen table with four chairs and want to add two end-chairs? Pay the table manufacturer 75% cut to let someone else be allowed to sell you some chairs. And what if the table is wobbly and needs a fix? Pay up!

To now add mods into that disaster of IP by turning into a pay-business, when it was working great as is with a very healthy modding community? Well, that sounds GREAT for consumers.... NOT!
 
dgz said:
selling mods is low but a mere 25% for the people doing all the work is more like evil. fuck you valve
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Pretty much this. Sorry, but I won't participate in this out of principle alone. Don't get me wrong, if they are doing things like auto-updating, hosting files, and processing payments they deserve a cut for that service. Something like 15% would be fair, but not three quarters of the pie. Taking 75% when your contribution is minimal is immoral IMO.
 
Ducman69 said:
Why?

I have a 460hp Corvette, with LG Pro longtube headers, ceramic coated GTP heads, Borla exhaust, carbon fiber intake, etc... why should I have to go to a Chevy dealership and pay Chevy and the dealership a 75% cut to allow me to install mods?

Its my car, I bought it, and if I want to throw a Borla exhaust on there I pay Borla. That's it. Same if I want to change the airconditioner or roof on my house, I don't pay Perry Homes 75% because they built the house. Why are video games different?
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Cars are a terrible analogy as always.

This is similar to the GT500, the Gates 311 Evo, and factory supported and installed mods.
 
There's a few problems with this.

#1 Valve takes 70% of the sale of mods.

#2 Mod makers are going to spew crap out out to make a quick buck.

#3 Everyone starts charging for mods and therefore nobody will ever get a chance to try them.

In Skyrims case they kinda left the game for dead. So most mods break the game and mods don't play well with other mods. If they updated Skyrim to better handle mods than I could see it worth a damn, but right now they're asking for trouble. Also no Linux version of Skyrim either, which is because again Bethesda left the game for dead after they couldn't milk it anymore.

Valve should rethink of a donate button instead because right now the Nexus has them beat in every way. They have better tools and a much larger community. Also I don't think they play nice with mods that aren't safe for work.
 
canna said:
Pretty much this. Sorry, but I won't participate in this out of principle alone. Don't get me wrong, if they are doing things like auto-updating, hosting files, and processing payments they deserve a cut for that service. Something like 15% would be fair, but not three quarters of the pie. Taking 75% when your contribution is minimal is immoral IMO.
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Valve is taking the standard 30%, that covers their transactions, Gabe's lunch, hosting, and auto-updating. Bethesda is taking 45% as part of their "license" expense for providing the core game. It's a little excessive. I think 30% valve, 30% IP owner, 40% modder would be fair. Or 30/20/50.
 
Spidey329 said:
Valve is taking the standard 30%, that covers their transactions, Gabe's lunch, hosting, and auto-updating. Bethesda is taking 45% as part of their "license" expense for providing the core game. It's a little excessive. I think 30% valve, 30% IP owner, 40% modder would be fair. Or 30/20/50.
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Or the previous business model: 0% for a myriad of free hosts all around the web (most mods aren't big downloads) supported by donations and/or a banner like on [H], and 100% to the modder via an optional "donate" button if you like the mod and feel like throwing a buck or two his way.

Its not like with that model we were lacking in game mods. http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/top/?

But its important to fix what aint broken, because as we all know, Bethseda and Gabe have children to feed and can't pay the gas money to get to work anymore, they are so poor.

WOOPS! I was wrong, Gabe already has $1.5 billion net worth: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabe_Newell

But hey, getting that fat off of caviar, albino tiger liver puree, and Lemur eye juice is expensive!
 
kbrickley said:
Valve isn't the one getting 75% ... They are getting the same 30% they get from every transaction (and that every other store collects) ... Bethesda is the one taking 45% so more vitriol should be directed at them
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I direct it at both. I am not philosophically opposed to paid mods like many people here, If someone wants to make money off their creation (YES, assuming the theft and proper attribution and credits can be ironed out) then so be it. It's perfectly possible that paid mods could lead to better mods with more production values, better completion rates for more ambitious mods, more voice acting, etc. etc.


My biggest problem is the breakdown. Call me crazy, but the party that does most of the work ought to get the biggest cut. I think it's reasonable for both valve (for hosting) and the game creator (for providing the platform and mod capability) to get SOME cut of mod sales, but I'd prefer a breakdown that looked something closer to this:

-valve ~15%
-game creator ~20%
-mod creator ~65%



I don't care that valve has always taken a 30% cut, I still think that is too large for both games and certainly mods. Large cuts need to be justified with larger costs, youtube takes around 50% but with reports they are basically breaking even suggests that their taking on storage and hosting necessitates that larger cut, it's not pulled out of their ass for gratuitous profit for its own sake like some greed infused thug.

25% of an effing joke. How anyone can actually convince themselves that they think that breakdown is fair is beyond me.
 
Absolutely worst idea ever. It may increase the number of mods available,but most of them will be crap,because you'll have people cranking them out for profit rather than out of passion for the game. The Fallout3/New Vegas mod groups are already rebelling against this,out of fear they'll be next. Valve and Bethesda need to curb their greed before it ends up ruining modding completely.
 
Some people brought up an issue of modders sort of "remixing" content from others in their own mods.


This is part of the reason the modders themselves need the lions share of the cut. I think you DO need a system where more peoples creations within the mod are credited and paid for (if they are being paid for at all). If some guy creates a new quest line that uses content from other mods, he should probably get the lions share of the modding cut if he added value synthesizing that, but all the components created by others should be weighted and credited and paid from a portion of the revenue set for modders.


Now exactly how you break down THAT level and degree of revenue to creators along an endless chain seems impossibly hard to quantify, I would not want to be the one trying to solve that problem. But I suppose there are similar problems in music already, or perhaps the issues are so thorny that game companies deliberately go out of their way to avoid it entirely by creating their own unique assets so they won't have to deal with the messy mechanics of figuring out who many scores of other peoples content are included and how much of a cut each was entitled to.
 
dgz said:
selling mods is low but a mere 25% for the people doing all the work is more like evil. fuck you valve
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Valve takes the same standard 30% as everything else in their store, same as any appstore- Google, Apple, Microsoft. It's the publisher sets the revenue split for the remaining 70%.

But let's get real. Most people don't actually care for the "poor, downtrodden modders and their lowly revenue split." Most people are just mad that they might have to pay for something.
 
DPI said:
Valve takes the same standard 30% as everything else in their store, same as any appstore- Google, Apple, Microsoft. It's the publisher sets the revenue split for the remaining 70%.

But let's get real. Most people don't actually care for the "poor, downtrodden modders and their lowly revenue split." Most people are just mad that they might have to pay for something.
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That last deserves a poll, off to create it now.
 
I don't oppose Mod makers getting paid for the work, what I have issues with is Valve deciding to screw over their customers and monetize mods, while at the same time taking an disgustingly high percentage of the sale price.
 
Ashbringer said:
Valve should rethink of a donate button instead because right now the Nexus has them beat in every way. They have better tools and a much larger community. Also I don't think they play nice with mods that aren't safe for work.
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Sorry but Nexus isn't the hero in this new narrative that Robin is trying to create. For >14< years he laughed at modders' requests to add a donate button - modders have even posted screenshots of his past responses "Sorry no donate button but being on here gets you exposure and maybe a game company hires you", and only when Steam Workshop threatened his ad revenue generating traffic did he suddenly scramble to add a donate button, then proceed to pat himself on the back for being a champion of the "free and open modding community."

That said, donation buttons don't work, they're a myth because most people are just cheapskates or kids with no money. People are only screaming "donate button" because what they're really thinking is "Button for OTHERS to donate, not me, LOL". And when everyone thinks that then you have the situation we have now where modders with hundreds of thousands of unique downloads on their mods describing on Reddit how they'll average like $12 in a month after pouring hundreds or thousands of hours into the mod.
 
DarkStar_WNY said:
I don't oppose Mod makers getting paid for the work, what I have issues with is Valve deciding to screw over their customers and monetize mods, while at the same time taking an disgustingly high percentage of the sale price.
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I oppose modders being paid unless it is with the express permission of the IP holder who they are leveraging for their efforts ... I can see that Valve is trying to find an effective way to do that but it doesn't appear that this is that way ... We still need to find a way to obtain that permission, until we do I would expect all modders to comply with the law and not seek payment or donations for their efforts ... if they wish to be paid then they should write original code and not leverage another's IP for their creation
 
I'm a little confused, I suppose I can see why valve is getting 30% for hosting (seems a little high, but whatever)

Now why would bethesda get anything from it though, didn't they already get paid for skyrim, or am I to suppose this is another eso (pay for the game then pay a monthly fee bs)

Ducman69 said:
and before you know it it will be like Train Simulator 2013 which literally has over $2000 worth of DLC to make it complete... not a joke, google it.
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I did google it, and I see ts2015 is up to CDN$ 5,281.19 for all dlc :eek:
 
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