US Recommends Emergency Braking Tech on All New Cars

CommanderFrank

CommanderFrank

Cat Can't Scratch It
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The Federal government’s auto regulator is recommending auto makers consider installing crash imminent braking and dynamic brake support as standard equipment on all new cars produced. The recommendations are the first step in getting needed technology in as a mandatory regulation.

Crash imminent braking, as the name implies, uses on-board sensors to detect when a crash is about to happen and then deploy the brakes if the driver has not already done so.
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While this certainly has uses, it could lead to problems as well:

I could see law enforcement wanting to be able to trigger this remotely in v2.0
Following, if it's remote then it would also be subject to attack.
ODB-2 dongles like the Progressive one could be used to trigger this.
Without an override, you may get stuck by passable obstacles.
Criminals could use this to halt vehicles that they intend to target.
etc etc.
 
My question is who owns the intellectual rights to said property? I know this isn't a public domain thing. And has that company who owns the technology been lobbying the government at all?
 
Follow up (lack of edit) do any congressmen or senators who are part of the department that gets to make these decisions in any way owners of stock of said company?
 
First they add backup cameras to all cars, and now this. Pretty soon, nobody will be able to afford cars because of all the crap the federal government is mandating. The cheapest cars will be $100k, with any reliable cars costing $250k or higher.
 
Or just have, oh I don't know, actual standards for driving.

Create proper driving test, some that only 90% of the applicants can actually have the skills to pass, because we know there are a LOT of people that are too god damn stupid and should be taking public transportation.... at least 1 out of 10 people. And the roads are already congested enough as it is, and driving has always been a privileged.

We take such extreme safety measures when it comes to pilot training for example, having to even do physicals every year along with annuals on the vehicle basically taking it apart and putting it back together, even for simple Cesnas. Yet for cars, literally any retard can drive on our roads.

Its especially bad in Houston, being such an international city, because we have so many foreigners that come from countries with no car or safety culture whatsoever, like India, Taiwan, China, Malaysia, etc. I mean, driving in Malaysia there will literally be giant dump trucks driving at 70mph on dirt roads not wide enough for two cars and will run approaching cars off the road not even slowing down. In Taiwan, so often you see especially scooters going the wrong way down a one way street. And then they come here, and we provide zero training or standards, and then act surprise when OOPS the accident rate goes up (Houston is now one of the highest accidents per capita cities in the nation because of it). And now they are giving drivers licenses to all the illegal aliens, who still don't have insurance.

And you don't have to reinvent the wheel, just literally copy Germany word for word on their driving practices, considering that they have an exemplary safety record in spite of having no speed limit on much of the roads.

But as was said, these types of decisions usually involve $$$ changing hands at the upper levels, which is why they are pushed regardless of popular opinion of the public. And if its in the name of "safety" or "teh childrenz", then its unquestioned.
 
dgingeri said:
First they add backup cameras to all cars, and now this. Pretty soon, nobody will be able to afford cars because of all the crap the federal government is mandating. The cheapest cars will be $100k, with any reliable cars costing $250k or higher.
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If that were to happen, the ones to blame would be the car manufacturers, not the government. Unless you really think some extra sensors and a camera cost tens of thousands of dollars?
 
I drive a lot and I see a lot of bad drivers out there. I got rear ended the week before Christmas because someone was not paying attention at an intersection, and while we did have a green light (green means go, right?), traffic was backed up and this guy didn't notice everyone in front of him had stopped. Crunch.

On the other hand, I've been in a couple of close calls in bad road conditions where auto-braking would very likely have resulted in me losing control of my vehicle (and presumably crashing). But those instances are statistically less common than the inattentive (cell phone wielding) city driver, so on the whole I think this would be a net benefit. It will just end up creating a few really nasty lawsuits where someone was on the road in wet or icy conditions.

Going around a bend, you encounter some wildlife.
Car auto-emergency brakes.
Weight transfers forward off the rear wheels.
Rear end breaks free because car was in a turn already.
Uncontrolled spin.
Who knows where you end up...field, guard rail, tree, water, cliff?
 
Lets add more stupid shit to cars so they can malfunction and cost thousands to troubleshoot and fix.
 
Raudulfr said:
If that were to happen, the ones to blame would be the car manufacturers, not the government. Unless you really think some extra sensors and a camera cost tens of thousands of dollars?
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Yup... a quick look at Amazon gets the first result for a plate mounted camera plus a viewing monitor for $32. I'm pretty sure car manufacturers can buy in bulk at wholesale prices, and if they're installing any sort of stereo system into a car they would practically zero more labor to install this into the dash as well.
 
A better question is why aren't ABS brakes standard on all cars sold? Anti-lock brakes are GOOD, and this is coming from someone who hates a computer second guessing them while driving.

Simple fact of the matter is, a computer can detect and correct for wheel lock faster than a human, and that results in quicker stops.

There is no replacement for people being aware of the driving conditions around them. Until AI happens, there never will be.
 
Sounds great in theory but a programming error could be disastrous. I for one like the safety features of new cars but there is a limit to how much control the car should have. Warning people when a car is next to them is a good thing as is a rear camera.

How about starting with warnings and see if maybe the drivers can start taking some responsibility. Once the cars are doing the work everyone will just blame the electronics for causing the accident.
 
spugnor said:
A better question is why aren't ABS brakes standard on all cars sold? Anti-lock brakes are GOOD, and this is coming from someone who hates a computer second guessing them while driving.

Simple fact of the matter is, a computer can detect and correct for wheel lock faster than a human, and that results in quicker stops.

There is no replacement for people being aware of the driving conditions around them. Until AI happens, there never will be.
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They are required by law. So is electronic stability control. You clearly haven't been new car shopping in a few years. I suggest doing a quick google before making assumptions about things you haven't verified in the future.
 
Raudulfr said:
If that were to happen, the ones to blame would be the car manufacturers, not the government. Unless you really think some extra sensors and a camera cost tens of thousands of dollars?
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Especially since that if said equipment becomes mandatory, economics of scale kicks in. These devices will go down in cost even further.
 
sfsuphysics said:
Yup... a quick look at Amazon gets the first result for a plate mounted camera plus a viewing monitor for $32. I'm pretty sure car manufacturers can buy in bulk at wholesale prices, and if they're installing any sort of stereo system into a car they would practically zero more labor to install this into the dash as well.
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Yeah some fly by night camera on Amazon is all it takes to add in a system to the entire electrical system, develop the software, communicate with the onboard CPU's develop its software so that everythng works in concert, actual apply the brakes. Do this all in any weather extremes 10's of thousands of times, with the reliability to avoid a pack of lawyers hoping to have an opportunity to sue.

yeah $32 sound about right. What a fucking joke.




.
 
spugnor said:
A better question is why aren't ABS brakes standard on all cars sold? Anti-lock brakes are GOOD, and this is coming from someone who hates a computer second guessing them while driving.

Simple fact of the matter is, a computer can detect and correct for wheel lock faster than a human, and that results in quicker stops.

There is no replacement for people being aware of the driving conditions around them. Until AI happens, there never will be.
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As mentioned, ABS is required on newer cars... which is another reason NOT to buy a newer car, because ABS *SUCKS!*

Sorry, but if you think ABS is good then obviously you don't know how to drive worth a damn.

If you know have to drive on slippery surfaces and know how to control slips/skids/spins/etc, then all ABS/traction/stability control/etc does is take your ability to control the vehicle away from you and increases the chance you are going to crash by about 75%.

The last vehicle I had with that shit I stripped it out and converted to manual. Won't be buying a vehicle now or in the future that I can't do that with.
 
How about requiring more comprehensive drivers license exams? The driving tests are jokes. Throwing money and equipment at the problem is not necessarily going to make the roads safer. Too many incompetent drivers on the road.
 
bloodypulp said:
How about requiring more comprehensive drivers license exams? The driving tests are jokes. Throwing money and equipment at the problem is not necessarily going to make the roads safer. Too many incompetent drivers on the road.
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I second this. Too many people think they have some kind of "right" to drive on public roads, and even more think they have the right to drive like assholes because the road belongs to them.

The U.S. is pathetic in how easily it hands out drivers licenses. There should be a nation wide standard (none of this state by state shit) that demands much stricter testing...

Something along the lines of a 150 question test (up from the 50-ish most states use) that you must pass with at least 98% and you must take yearly when you renew your tags, and an actual road test every few years when your license expires.

Also add yearly inspections for all vehicles driven on public roads for all the states that don't have them to get all the unsafe and illegal vehicles off the road...

That would be a good start.
 
WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot said:
As mentioned, ABS is required on newer cars... which is another reason NOT to buy a newer car, because ABS *SUCKS!*

Sorry, but if you think ABS is good then obviously you don't know how to drive worth a damn.

If you know have to drive on slippery surfaces and know how to control slips/skids/spins/etc, then all ABS/traction/stability control/etc does is take your ability to control the vehicle away from you and increases the chance you are going to crash by about 75%.

The last vehicle I had with that shit I stripped it out and converted to manual. Won't be buying a vehicle now or in the future that I can't do that with.
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Sorry, but most people cant use a turn signal and you expect them to know how to brake properly without ABS. Most people just jam the foot down expecting the vehicle to stop. ABS does improve stearability as well for crash avoidance. ABS is useful tech.

My concern with Emergency breaking is that it could activate prematurely or for an invalid reason, causing a crash.
 
I think hundreds of times more sobriety checkpoints and random vehicle searches with many more revocations of drivers' licenses on a lifetime instead of temporary basis would help a lot more than emergency braking stuff.
 
sfsuphysics said:
Yup... a quick look at Amazon gets the first result for a plate mounted camera plus a viewing monitor for $32. I'm pretty sure car manufacturers can buy in bulk at wholesale prices, and if they're installing any sort of stereo system into a car they would practically zero more labor to install this into the dash as well.
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Not even close to the quality used in decent cars. That's like comparing some knockoff junk tablet to a high end Samsung or ipad.

Also it's not just the cost of the camera, but getting it (and all the connected hardware certified to pass the government specs, warranty support, etc.


Having said that, automatic brakes (on the other guys car) would have saved me from a couple rear end accidents over the past several years.

I also wonder how long before the crooks start using this to rob people.
jump out in front of a moving car, and after it stops you friend pulls a gun on the driver.

As for police stopping a car with this feature, they don't need a remote. They just need to pull in front of the car and brake.
 
WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot said:
As mentioned, ABS is required on newer cars... which is another reason NOT to buy a newer car, because ABS *SUCKS!*

Sorry, but if you think ABS is good then obviously you don't know how to drive worth a damn.

If you know have to drive on slippery surfaces and know how to control slips/skids/spins/etc, then all ABS/traction/stability control/etc does is take your ability to control the vehicle away from you and increases the chance you are going to crash by about 75%.

The last vehicle I had with that shit I stripped it out and converted to manual. Won't be buying a vehicle now or in the future that I can't do that with.
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ABS is for panic stops, when you don't have time to properly react. I don't care how good of a driver you are, you are fooling yourself if you think are going to do a better job manually under a panic stop situation.


Also you better hope that you never get into an accident in a car that you disabled the safety equipment on. Even if it was the other guys fault they will sue and you will lose.
 
Am I the only one who drives with his right foot on the brake at all times.
 
Never had an issue with ABS, but my current car does not have it, and I do fine as well. Helps that I put winter tires on this year too, I never bothered before.
 
nutzo said:
ABS is for panic stops, when you don't have time to properly react. I don't care how good of a driver you are, you are fooling yourself if you think are going to do a better job manually under a panic stop situation.


Also you better hope that you never get into an accident in a car that you disabled the safety equipment on. Even if it was the other guys fault they will sue and you will lose.
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If you learn to threshold brake (which means braking at 90-ish percent pedal pressure to get maximum braking without locking up the tires), you can stop 25% quicker than a car with ABS enabled who just slams the brakes to the floor. It takes practice and control, but you can train yourself to do it. It has saved my ass a couple times in traffic in my non-ABS car. ABS is a generally good tech for a majority of people who have no interest in controlling their car or learning how it works. But, don't get the idea that it's better. It makes a stopping distance tradeoff by pulsing the brakes to prevent lockups.

Now, you can still threshold brake in an ABS car, because the system is designed to pulse the brakes in a locking condition. But, some ABS systems are more aggressive than others and kick in earlier. So, you can end up extending braking distance in a panic situation, which may not be ideal. Again, it's a good tech for someone who takes no interest in driving, but it isn't perfect.
 
"No interest in controlling their car or learning how it works". Lol ok.
 
delsydsoftware said:
If you learn to threshold brake (which means braking at 90-ish percent pedal pressure to get maximum braking without locking up the tires), you can stop 25% quicker than a car with ABS enabled who just slams the brakes to the floor.
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Car and Driver proved this was BS on a BMW, using one of the world's top racers who couldn't outperform simply standing on the brake with ABS.

Even Cycle World did a test and verified on motorcycles ABS reduces braking distance, with skill being irrelevant, as its simply not humanely possible to replicate.

The only time that threshold braking may have outperformed ABS systems was in their infancy, or in motorcycles perhaps 10 years ago (they have lagged behind cars for a while). And unlike a race course where you can actually anticipate the corner, you can't anticipate anything reliably in an emergency situation, including the need to also swerve slightly at the end of your braking, which ABS still permits but threshold would not. Also, once a tire has begun to skid, it takes much longer for the human body to release and reapply the proper threshold braking. You also can't anticipate the road conditions ahead that may have contributed to the need to emergency stop, such as a fluid spill, oil, wet leaves, sand spill, etc.

The reason is not just that the ECU is pulsing the brake (now as much as 20 times a second which no human an do), but that its doing so on all four tires independently, which is something that is simply impossible due to the lack of user interface. Thanks to traction control systems and sophisticated sensors, the same tools that allow the vehicle to selectively apply the brake to prevent a spin-out also apply brakes independently as the tiniest amount of slip is encountered on tires as traction varies between them. You thus have each tire at its peak braking potential while its virtually impossible to lock the tire or lose steering control.
 
Ducman69 said:
Car and Driver proved this was BS on a BMW, using one of the world's top racers who couldn't outperform simply standing on the brake with ABS.

Even Cycle World did a test and verified on motorcycles ABS reduces braking distance, with skill being irrelevant, as its simply not humanely possible to replicate.

The only time that threshold braking may have outperformed ABS systems was in their infancy, or in motorcycles perhaps 10 years ago (they have lagged behind cars for a while). And unlike a race course where you can actually anticipate the corner, you can't anticipate anything reliably in an emergency situation, including the need to also swerve slightly at the end of your braking, which ABS still permits but threshold would not. Also, once a tire has begun to skid, it takes much longer for the human body to release and reapply the proper threshold braking. You also can't anticipate the road conditions ahead that may have contributed to the need to emergency stop, such as a fluid spill, oil, wet leaves, sand spill, etc.

The reason is not just that the ECU is pulsing the brake (now as much as 20 times a second which no human an do), but that its doing so on all four tires independently, which is something that is simply impossible due to the lack of user interface. Thanks to traction control systems and sophisticated sensors, the same tools that allow the vehicle to selectively apply the brake to prevent a spin-out also apply brakes independently as the tiniest amount of slip is encountered on tires as traction varies between them. You thus have each tire at its peak braking potential while its virtually impossible to lock the tire or lose steering control.
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Hey now! Don't you go raining on these [H] pro drivers' parade. You'd be amazed what you can achieve after overclocking your brakes!
 
Megalith said:
Am I the only one who drives with his right foot on the brake at all times.
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Good drivers have the coordination to be able to switch between gas/brake with one foot. If anything you're more dangerous with your foot on the brake.

Guess ducman has a point about the quality of our driver's education
 
ABS is for loosers HAHA. Anyways ABS serves its purpose well 90% of the time. Some conditions where it sucksz: Tracks, low friction surfaces (abs actually is a terrible system when used in conjunction with automatic awd systems for traction or forward direction in ice and snow caz its gonna hinder forward momentum).

Back to this recommendation. As long as its a recommendation and not a requirement no major automaker cares. Maybe in their long term portofolio management team but not in the present. Just look how long rearview cameras are taking to become standard kit. Plus the systems out here need alot of fine tuning in regards to forward sensors in again terrible upkeep by owners (after a snow storm during a rainstorm if the line of sight is blocked the sensor is a dud).
 
Ducman69 said:
Car and Driver proved this was BS on a BMW, using one of the world's top racers who couldn't outperform simply standing on the brake with ABS.

Even Cycle World did a test and verified on motorcycles ABS reduces braking distance, with skill being irrelevant, as its simply not humanely possible to replicate.

The only time that threshold braking may have outperformed ABS systems was in their infancy, or in motorcycles perhaps 10 years ago (they have lagged behind cars for a while). And unlike a race course where you can actually anticipate the corner, you can't anticipate anything reliably in an emergency situation, including the need to also swerve slightly at the end of your braking, which ABS still permits but threshold would not. Also, once a tire has begun to skid, it takes much longer for the human body to release and reapply the proper threshold braking. You also can't anticipate the road conditions ahead that may have contributed to the need to emergency stop, such as a fluid spill, oil, wet leaves, sand spill, etc.

The reason is not just that the ECU is pulsing the brake (now as much as 20 times a second which no human an do), but that its doing so on all four tires independently, which is something that is simply impossible due to the lack of user interface. Thanks to traction control systems and sophisticated sensors, the same tools that allow the vehicle to selectively apply the brake to prevent a spin-out also apply brakes independently as the tiniest amount of slip is encountered on tires as traction varies between them. You thus have each tire at its peak braking potential while its virtually impossible to lock the tire or lose steering control.
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ABS may have improved to the point where my numbers aren't relevant anymore. However, I still think that threshold braking should still be taught to drivers. My non-ABS car from 1996 has front discs, rear-drums, and a light back-end due to the front engine/FWD configuration. A large amount of cars on the road have this exact setup, because ABS was still optional for many years and car manufacturers were slow to move to 4-wheel discs here. If I don't threshold brake, the rear drums will lock up in a second. In a lot of interstate driving, you are traveling in a straight line with clear sight lines of the traffic in front of you. That is the ideal condition for threshold braking, and probably an example of the traffic conditions a majority of people face at high enough speeds to matter.
 
SparkedFire said:
Sorry, but most people cant use a turn signal and you expect them to know how to brake properly without ABS. Most people just jam the foot down expecting the vehicle to stop. ABS does improve stearability as well for crash avoidance. ABS is useful tech.

My concern with Emergency breaking is that it could activate prematurely or for an invalid reason, causing a crash.
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If anyone your comment just goes to show that there are a lot of people who shouldn't be driving at all and should have their license made invalid not be given more ways / reasons they can be bad drivers.
 
xIronCrossx said:
"No interest in controlling their car or learning how it works". Lol ok.
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That came out worse than I intended. What I mean is that most people on the road don't delve into the technicalities of driving. A vast majority of people don't work on their own cars, and they honestly don't care how it works. They just want a car that gets from a to b with good comfort, safety, reliability, and style. They don't say things like "the addition of side impact air bags is adding X amount of weight to modern cars, reducing performance", or "cars need to have the option to legally disable ABS". Those are conversations that basically only happen with car enthusiasts. From what I see on the interstate every day, people are more absorbed by their phones than with driving anyway.
 
Exavior said:
If anyone your comment just goes to show that there are a lot of people who shouldn't be driving at all and should have their license made invalid not be given more ways / reasons they can be bad drivers.
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I completely agree. The problem is, this will never happen.
 
Exavior said:
If anyone your comment just goes to show that there are a lot of people who shouldn't be driving at all and should have their license made invalid not be given more ways / reasons they can be bad drivers.
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Don't get why (about abs brakes, not turning signals, if that was what you mean). In a crash situation, it's not like people have a lot of time to go, yes, press down the brakes, release, and again. I think ABS is a good thing. I only care about turning signals if there are cars around. If you're alone or far away from other cars, it's not an issue for me. But yea... ffs, use them if you're merging into traffic!
 
Ha, CA is giving drivers licenses to illegals, you think they know how to drive?
As for ABS, my 20 year old Audi Quattro has ABS and it keeps the brakes from locking up on hard stops but does not work as well on slick surfaces.
Some Audi's in the late 80's had ABS override button for winter driving.
 
I think this is a government control thing. While the tanks and army trucks won't have these features, the people will be "stopped" automatically by the computer. More government taking away your rights mostly. All these things are being put into place so that when crap hits the fan the government will have an upper hand if things were to come down. All vehicles will be halted. They stepping in too much. There's a point where safety jeperdizes freedom. Keep everything manual. At most an automatic transmission. They want your guns, now they want your cars to be semi disabled. If a person can't drive without computer assistance then they shouldn't be driving period.
 
Ducman69 said:
Or just have, oh I don't know, actual standards for driving.
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Yes! Too obvious though.

I had a 2002 Chevy pickup that if ABS kicked on in poor conditions it essentially meant no brakes. Just a terrifying buzz. I would have to fully let off the pedal to disengage the ABS and try again if I wanted to understand what was going on with traction. Fucking terrible. And being a pickup, it was way easier to spin out using the gas pedal than it would ever be with the brake. The positive side is I had no choice but to go super slow in bad weather because I was knew what would happen.

I have a new car now and am sure it's better but haven't experienced it yet.
 
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