TotalBiscuit discusses review embargoes

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polonyc2

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after the Assassin's Creed Unity fiasco, embargoes have become a hot button issue with several popular sites no longer willing to publish post-release embargoes...here TotalBiscuit talks review embargos. What are they? What is their purpose? Are they anti-consumer? What can we do about them or indeed, should we do anything?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gavcvi19q1g
 
When we agree to review hardware, sometimes, if it is a pre-release product, we make an agreement with the hardware supplier to hold our review till an agreed embargo. Sometimes we source the hardware from somewhere other than the builder, and then we do not abide by any embargo as we have agreed to nothing.
 
polonyc2 said:
hardware embargoes are different in that there's no real pre-order incentives...with games you risk missing out on some DLC or other trinkets...hence most people are fine with waiting for full hardware reviews but are more willing to take a risk with pre-ordering games
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Yes you are correct. Unless you of course purchase the hardware before the reviews are out, which does happen.
 
I like his spin on things in the gaming world as pre-orders have gotten to be a BIG part of its revenue model.

I generally do not pre-order any games any more, with BL:TPS being an exception. I love playing that crap with my kids. We have so much fun. :)
 
I stopped pre-ordering games a long time ago..one of the best decisions I ever made.
 
I have no problem preordering games, but the only games I preorder are ones I plan on getting day one. Those games I would get without reading or watching a review so in those instances a review embargo. But games I'm on the fence about I'll usually wait for a review or price drop.
 
piscian18 said:
May I ask why hardware companies have the embargos? Just to avoid getting hurt at launch?
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In all honesty, I think it mainly has to do with controlling the stock price since all of those are publicly traded companies.
 
If there was a way to erase this idiot from the planet I would. Creating a mountain out of a mole hill. If you preorder, you took the risk. Big frickin' deal. Don't be a crybaby and move on with life.
 
I don't think pre-orders are a bad thing, it's just that the publishers have banked on the business model by luring people in with content that you would not otherwise have access to if you didn't pre-order. So people feel like they're missing out on the complete game if they don't pre-order. I have no problem with incentives like special pakaging and trinkets, but this practice of witholding content is highly anti-consumer. I remember when Gamestop had the marketing line "Power to the Players" and always thought it was ironic that this would be said at the end of every commercial pushing for a pre-order. In this case it's more like "Power to the Publisher."

Pre-orders are still good for imports like Japanese titles. The number of units shipped of such imports are usually reflected by the number of pre-orders in addition to market research. Publishers don't want to take the risk of wasting money on shipping titles that won't sell, and many Japanese games really fit into a niche market.

But I do feel that the pre-order culture has led us down this road of outlandish marketing budgets, hype trains, and active censoring. If publishers didn't waste so much damned money on marketing maybe we would have some QC and development resources to actually put out a good product. With preordering being such a big deal, they don't need to spend as much on the actual development of the product because you're basically buying their advertising with a preorder, not an actual product. They can afford to release a shoddy product because fuck you, we have your money anyway.
 
I can see no reason whatsoever that it is beneficial to us as gamers to purchase games before we can play them. Some will cry that "well one reason is the bonuses they give for pre-orders". Thats not a bonus at that point, it's a penalty for those that choose to wait. Also don't buy the whole "exclusive access to beta!". Thats not a beta. You wanted to play the demo so bad you bought the game. Think about how stupid that is.

The only exception I will make would be physical collectors editions or physical imports.
 
I pre-ordered 14 games around August and September almost worth more than a grand. I saved about 35% across all preorders. I also did not have any cash flow issues in November when I plan my visits/trips outside for vacation etc. So yeah pre-orders do help.
 
KickAssCop said:
If there was a way to erase this idiot from the planet I would. Creating a mountain out of a mole hill. If you preorder, you took the risk. Big frickin' deal. Don't be a crybaby and move on with life.
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I agree, I also don't have a problem with preorder bonuses. Its a choice the consumer can make. There is nothing forcing the consumer to preorder it or purchase it.
 
KickAssCop said:
I pre-ordered 14 games around August and September almost worth more than a grand. I saved about 35% across all preorders. I also did not have any cash flow issues in November when I plan my visits/trips outside for vacation etc. So yeah pre-orders do help.
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That is usually how do I my preorders, i tend to pay them in advance when I have extra money. So when they come out, I have money for other stupid shit I buy lol.
 
qbanb8582 said:
I agree, I also don't have a problem with preorder bonuses. Its a choice the consumer can make. There is nothing forcing the consumer to preorder it or purchase it.
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Pre-orders hurts the rest of us in the fact it allows the publishers to release shitty, buggy and unoptimized console ports. Other than that I don't care how anyone else spends their money.
 
pcjunkie said:
Pre-orders hurts the rest of us in the fact it allows the publishers to release shitty, buggy and unoptimized console ports. Other than that I don't care how anyone else spends their money.
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How so? I don't see how preordering a game verus buying it day one will reflect the quality of the product.
 
qbanb8582 said:
How so? I don't see how preordering a game verus buying it day one will reflect the quality of the product.
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um...it was explained in my previous post...Totalbiscuit also talked about it. Is there something you don't understand?
 
qbanb8582 said:
How so? I don't see how preordering a game verus buying it day one will reflect the quality of the product.
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I don't see it being the biggest factor, but it is a factor. What it does, is it creates larger sales figures early on before people know whether the game is good or not. This locks in a certain percentage of sales where the quality of the game does not impact sales. If the game sucks, it will still look like it sold well due to preorders, and then the publisher will think it was a success regardless of how much work went into making it the best game it can be (or not as in a lot of cases.)

Once again, this isn't the biggest deal, as it only locks in the percentage that preordered. There is still ample opportunity for vocal people to speak out after the fact.

There are cases though where a game gets a bad rap based on a vocal set of people, and actually ends up being quite enjoyable. A lot of people get turned off from a game, and blindly follow what these people are saying, don't buy the game. Some of them may pick it up for $5 later to find out it's really not a bad game. At that point though, it's not doing anything to encourage that dev team or publisher.

It works both ways, and there are tons of factors at play.

The best thing is to do your homework, decide who you trust as a publisher and/or dev, and buy their games at full or reasonable sale price. Wait on borderline cases, and don't buy things that are said to suck until they come down to a price that's worth the risk to you. Going by these guidelines I really haven't bought a bad game in at least 10 years, and I do preorder here and there with a trusted dev. For example, I preordered Bioshock and Bioshock Infinite. I trusted the ex-irrational devs to deliver and they did. (I knew Bioshock 2 wasn't developed by the main team, and didn't buy it until it was $10. I didn't like it much, and wasn't out much. It didn't suck, but wasn't worth more than what I paid to me.) I trust id. A lot of people don't like their style of games these days, but I still do, and they haven't burned me once. RAGE was a slow starter with its AMD issues, but I was ready to buy a new card anyway, popped an NV card in, and it was immensely fun for me. I will be pre-ordering Doom 4, and know that I won't have a problem with it. I preordered Borderlands 2 knowing that I would enjoy it. Also preordered Deus Ex: HR There are a ton of games that I wait and see on. There are others I wait for sales on. There are TONS that I don't buy at all. You just have to be smart about it.

Also, don't trust most review sites. Read as many as you can (or previews) and start forming an opinion based on interpolating the data between them all. Mix that in with what you know about the company making the game. If you can get some user reviews in before you pick it up even better.
 
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I think the only game I pre-ordered was an indie game, and only because it was a safe bet with little financial risk. Imho pre-orders are just a way to take advantage of the instant gratification types, people age differently than others and all that jazz.
 
J3RK said:
I don't see it being the biggest factor, but it is a factor. What it does, is it creates larger sales figures early on before people know whether the game is good or not. This locks in a certain percentage of sales where the quality of the game does not impact sales. If the game sucks, it will still look like it sold well due to preorders, and then the publisher will think it was a success regardless of how much work went into making it the best game it can be (or not as in a lot of cases.)

Once again, this isn't the biggest deal, as it only locks in the percentage that preordered. There is still ample opportunity for vocal people to speak out after the fact.

There are cases though where a game gets a bad rap based on a vocal set of people, and actually ends up being quite enjoyable. A lot of people get turned off from a game, and blindly follow what these people are saying, don't buy the game. Some of them may pick it up for $5 later to find out it's really not a bad game. At that point though, it's not doing anything to encourage that dev team or publisher.

It works both ways, and there are tons of factors at play.

The best thing is to do your homework, decide who you trust as a publisher and/or dev, and buy their games at full or reasonable sale price. Wait on borderline cases, and don't buy things that are said to suck until they come down to a price that's worth the risk to you. Going by these guidelines I really haven't bought a bad game in at least 10 years, and I do preorder here and there with a trusted dev. For example, I preordered Bioshock and Bioshock Infinite. I trusted the ex-irrational devs to deliver and they did. (I knew Bioshock 2 wasn't developed by the main team, and didn't buy it until it was $10. I didn't like it much, and wasn't out much. It didn't suck, but wasn't worth more than what I paid to me.) I trust id. A lot of people don't like their style of games these days, but I still do, and they haven't burned me once. RAGE was a slow starter with its AMD issues, but I was ready to buy a new card anyway, popped an NV card in, and it was immensely fun for me. I will be pre-ordering Doom 4, and know that I won't have a problem with it. I preordered Borderlands 2 knowing that I would enjoy it. Also preordered Deus Ex: HR There are a ton of games that I wait and see on. There are others I wait for sales on. There are TONS that I don't buy at all. You just have to be smart about it.

Also, don't trust most review sites. Read as many as you can (or previews) and start forming an opinion based on interpolating the data between them all. Mix that in with what you know about the company making the game. If you can get some user reviews in before you pick it up even better.
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I agree with that for the most part. What you're saying is comes down to the consumer making an informed decision. I have no problem with someone making an informed decision to preorder something or not get it at all. But I just don't see how preorders will determine the games overall quality. I can understand things like minor bugs and glitches being patched later when it comes to preorders.

I guess I have a different perspective, I worked in an environment where we had products preordered and we had a release day to meet. So things shipped with the plan to patch it in the future.

I find it hard to believe a game like Duke Nukem Forever would've been any better if no one would've preordered it, and waited to get it on release day.
 
qbanb8582 said:
But I just don't see how preorders will determine the games overall quality.
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Well, they don't really directly. However, if nobody pre-ordered, and everyone made an informed decision, it would definitely send a message to devs and publishers. If the game was bad, nobody would buy it. They'd realize, oh, we made a bad game. If everyone bought it, then they'd know they did it right. It wouldn't happen 1:1 for each game. However, the more this happens in succession, the more it would start to make a difference. This is all idealistic of course. I think a lot of publishers bank on the preorders even when they know they're rushing something out unfinished. "Oh well, we still have three million copies preordered. We can polish it up later."

If a company lost sales a few games in a row because nobody preordered, and everyone waited until they knew the games were no good. They might try harder. Duke Nukem was a special case really. The game COULD have been great at various stages in its development cycle. It was just poorly handled, and all manner of bad things happened to the project until it went on for so long nothing could have saved it. I'm amazed it turned out as well as it did really. It was still mildly fun, if a bit mindless and patch-work(y).
 
It's pretty easy, don't pre-order. That's my motto now. Burned too many times.

It was always the "extras" that get you to preorder. Only, if the game can't stand on its own without the extras, it's not worth your purchase in the first place. I gurantee those extras will not provide you additional enjoyment. I can't name 1 bonus that stands out in my long history of collectors editions and pre orders.

On the flip side, because I don't pre order and don't play games day 1, I've fallen into the year late cycle and almost exclusively play games on Steam now at a deep discount. (Can really suck for multiplayer elements, but that's the price you pay.)
 
J3RK said:
Well, they don't really directly. However, if nobody pre-ordered, and everyone made an informed decision, it would definitely send a message to devs and publishers. If the game was bad, nobody would buy it. They'd realize, oh, we made a bad game. If everyone bought it, then they'd know they did it right. It wouldn't happen 1:1 for each game. However, the more this happens in succession, the more it would start to make a difference. This is all idealistic of course. I think a lot of publishers bank on the preorders even when they know they're rushing something out unfinished. "Oh well, we still have three million copies preordered. We can polish it up later."

If a company lost sales a few games in a row because nobody preordered, and everyone waited until they knew the games were no good. They might try harder. Duke Nukem was a special case really. The game COULD have been great at various stages in its development cycle. It was just poorly handled, and all manner of bad things happened to the project until it went on for so long nothing could have saved it. I'm amazed it turned out as well as it did really. It was still mildly fun, if a bit mindless and patch-work(y).
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True in the end I think we're saying the same thing. It comes down the consumer making an informed decision.
 
I remember the days of demos coming out quite a bit before the game was release. You could try it, then play it. Unreal Tournament, Quake II, Diablo, Alpha Centauri, and many many others. The dev's actualy used feedback from the demos to tweak things and get the game right (or more right) when they released it.

This way, one could try a game, if they didn't' like it, they didn't have to buy it. Now days, you buy it - then get to find out if you like it or not. $50 to $60 on a game isn't a horrible price considering what goes into a game, but when you spend that much and you don't care for it at all, it sucks, is broken, blah blah is why I don't pre-order. Haven't since UT2004 (which had a pre-release demo).

I miss those days :(
 
I'd rather wait till the GOTY edition hits steam that includes all the DLC and bonuses and a million things way better than the pre order bonuses - and pay $10 for universally agreed upon "good game"

That's how I like to roll. Seriously - my backog from this. SOOOOOOOOOO big, when am I going to find the time to play all these great games guys! :(
 
somecallmeTim said:
I remember the days of demos coming out quite a bit before the game was release. You could try it, then play it. Unreal Tournament, Quake II, Diablo, Alpha Centauri, and many many others. The dev's actualy used feedback from the demos to tweak things and get the game right (or more right) when they released it.

This way, one could try a game, if they didn't' like it, they didn't have to buy it. Now days, you buy it - then get to find out if you like it or not. $50 to $60 on a game isn't a horrible price considering what goes into a game, but when you spend that much and you don't care for it at all, it sucks, is broken, blah blah is why I don't pre-order. Haven't since UT2004 (which had a pre-release demo).

I miss those days :(
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I must have played the Quake III preview demo with the two levels 50+ hours before the game came out. :cool:
 
Guys these are video games, not life saving kidney transplants. If a developer habitually takes a shit in a box and you keep preordering it then it's your fault for not waiting for other people to open the box and warn you of the smell.
 
fdiaz78 said:
Guys these are video games, not life saving kidney transplants. If a developer habitually takes a shit in a box and you keep preordering it then it's your fault for not waiting for other people to open the box and warn you of the smell.
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This. A million times this.
 
fdiaz78 said:
Guys these are video games, not life saving kidney transplants. If a developer habitually takes a shit in a box and you keep preordering it then it's your fault for not waiting for other people to open the box and warn you of the smell.
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Pretty much. I'm so glad I didn't pre-order Unity or buy one of those Nvidia promo codes right now. I wish Kiev wasn't doing FC4 but since they are, back to waiting. Or rather on to buying DA: Inq and giving Ubi the middle finger. That said the whole concept of post-release embargos is and has always been fucking stupid and should ALWAYS be taken as a bad sign.
 
KickAssCop said:
I pre-ordered 14 games around August and September almost worth more than a grand. I saved about 35% across all preorders. I also did not have any cash flow issues in November when I plan my visits/trips outside for vacation etc. So yeah pre-orders do help.
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I doubt you saved much money if a couple of those games turned out to be shit.
 
Why when nvidia endorses a game does it suck? Shouldn't they get the early access code, and shouldn't the game be better? If Ubisoft sucks at producing quality coded games or just poor porting, then quit endorsing the damn things. AC Black Flags, Splinter Cell Blackist, AC Unity. Just to name a few. All they accomplish is bad PR. AMD has had their share of problems but as HardOCP pointed out, Alien Isolation has fantastic performance and is highly efficient. This time around.
 
northfaceseen said:
Why when nvidia endorses a game does it suck? Shouldn't they get the early access code, and shouldn't the game be better? If Ubisoft sucks at producing quality coded games or just poor porting, then quit endorsing the damn things. AC Black Flags, Splinter Cell Blackist, AC Unity. Just to name a few. All they accomplish is bad PR. AMD has had their share of problems but as HardOCP pointed out, Alien Isolation has fantastic performance and is highly efficient. This time around.
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Nvidia sponsors a game: game runs like shit, but slightly less like shit on Nvidia cards. Result: AMDSUXLOLOLOLOL

AMD sponsors a game: game runs well on just about every setup. HardOCP chooses not to include it on their benchmarks. Result: AMDSUXLOLOLOLOL
 
KazeoHin said:
Nvidia sponsors a game: game runs like shit, but slightly less like shit on Nvidia cards. Result: AMDSUXLOLOLOLOL

AMD sponsors a game: game runs well on just about every setup. HardOCP chooses not to include it on their benchmarks. Result: AMDSUXLOLOLOLOL
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Umm BF4 and Tomb Raider (both AMD sponsored titles) have been in [H]ard's test suite practically since they released. Of the three Nvidia sponsored games both Crysis 3 and FC3 run well on both and Watch_Dogs is well Watch_Dogs.
 
I watched most the video then got bored. I don't see what the big deal is really. If a company is willing to have an embargo date that is prior to release, cool, that's nice, lets us see the game early and get any preorder goodies while still being informed by reviews.

If a company isn't willing to have an embargo date that is pre release, why should I, the consumer, care? If I'm willing to buy the game without reviews, I'll do that. If I'm not, I won't. I'm not seeing why it's a big deal. If you buy a shit game because you hadn't seen any reviews before it released, that's on your own head.

It matters more to the reviewer whether or not they want to go along with the publisher's embargo or whether they'd rather just wait for the game to come out.
 
Having review embargo that prevents a review from going public prior to the release of a game is an anti-consumer move, especially when coupled with the practice of withholding contents from those who doesn't want to pre-order a game.

As such, consumers stand to lose either way, because if you want to get all the content that everyone rightfully should get, you have to blindly purchase a game not knowing what you're getting into. If you wish to make an informed purchase, then you have to forgo certain contents despite paying a full price.
 
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