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A new study claims that boxed games results in lower greenhouse gas emissions than digitally downloaded games. 
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Downloading Games Causes More Pollution Than Boxed Games
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CrimsonKnight13
Lord Stabington of [H]ard|Fortress
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If you throw money at something, it always makes perfect & logical sense. Especially studies.
A new study claims that boxed games results in lower greenhouse gas emissions than digitally downloaded games.
Steve, that report talks about PS3 consumption model in UK. A thing the researchers had to point out was that PS4 lets you download as you play, which improves efficiency. It's saying that >4.5GB is the point that you would rather have the BD instead of downloading if you're using PS3.
kbrickley
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A study like this is too region specific ... since a lot of game manufacturing in the USA is likely to occur overseas and necessitate sea transport and air transport ... and since high speed access in the USA can be pretty fast for downloads I would say the opposite is true in the States (by a very large margin)
The other thing is that the datacenter operating costs and bandwidth/cost per title aren't shared to the public, so you don't have an absolute solid grasp of it. The report actually acknowledged this.
I hated the idea of Steam when it first came out. I was stuck on a slower network connection at the time, and I didn't like the idea of having to download something when I wanted to play it.
That all changed when the boxed games I would buy started requiring that I install Steam (or worse, Origin) and would proceed to immediately download the latest full version of the games. I thought to myself, "What's the point?"
That all changed when the boxed games I would buy started requiring that I install Steam (or worse, Origin) and would proceed to immediately download the latest full version of the games. I thought to myself, "What's the point?"
kbrickley
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Although I am fairly environmental conscious I am not in favor of trying to go totally carbon free ... Electricity usage in a Datacenter (which is one of the primary sources of carbon other than air conditioning) is much lower carbon (at least right now) because of access to alternate energy streams (hydro, natural gas, nuclear, wind, solar) depending on the datacenter location ... the transport factors in the USA would also be different where the discs are coming from China (most likely) and require sea transport and air transport (with the land transport following that) ... almost any way you spin digital downloads for the USA they are going to come out lower than physical (especially since physical in the USA involves either big box stores or online purchase and shipping for even more carbon)
It's only applicable for PS3 in UK, and I am not sure of what games that were using to do this math with. (Transporting a game from Austria to UK was listed as an extreme case)
They used the average of 1.9hr online for PS3, but I seriously doubt that people that are gaming and downloading would typically average so little hours btw.
The lifetime study is also not factoring in the sheer costs in all the consumption associated from the plastic and the dye/mirror used to make the discs. Frankly, the infrastructural investments in digital is far less than discs. The savings in emission in this report is only factoring the end consumers' and end point distribution really.
kbrickley
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I think that would be a key difference with PCs where most of us with PCs may leave them on throughout the day and do a lot of our downloading in parallel to other tasks (including gaming sometimes) so you aren't really saving any energy by stopping the download since the computer is on, regardless of whether it is being used to play games or download new games or software
kbrickley
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It would interesting to factor in the footprint of the laser required to read a blu ray versus a laserless system as well (since lasers tend to use a fair amount of exotic elements that might have large carbon footprints due to mining, refining, and transportation) ... although I think a "real" study of this nature might be warranted I would be surprised if it said anything other than digital downloads save resources AND carbon
Yes, too bad the only thing increased carbon-dioxide release actually does in the atmosphere is stimulate the growth of carbon-dioxide-eating plant life... (One of many key elements absent from the greenhouse-gas distribution computer models of the 90's.)
(One of many key elements absent from the greenhouse-gas distribution computer models of the 90's.)
B00nie
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This was a service bulletin financed by the BD manufacturers industry.
Krenum
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Save the trees, save the bees, save the whales , save those snails!
kbrickley
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Well, unless you want lots of GMO crops (which I am not opposed to) then saving the bees might not be a bad idea as they actually do serve a useful purpose and there are lots of plants that rely exclusively on bee pollination
Krenum
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Well, unless you want lots of GMO crops (which I am not opposed to) then saving the bees might not be a bad idea as they actually do serve a useful purpose and there are lots of plants that rely exclusively on bee pollination
I know plenty about the bees. But its not our job to police the bees.
In relation to my original post, "The planets not going anywhere!. We are! Pack your shit folks".
D
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Well, I have two things to say about this. (in general)
1. I'm feeling a little colder as of the past few days. I'm going to go download Wolfenstein a few times. At 45GB a pop, that should heat things up a bit out there.
2. The other, is that clicking "delete local content" when I want to get rid of a game should produce a lot less pollution than going out back and tossing my discs in a fire.
Or something...
1. I'm feeling a little colder as of the past few days. I'm going to go download Wolfenstein a few times. At 45GB a pop, that should heat things up a bit out there.
2. The other, is that clicking "delete local content" when I want to get rid of a game should produce a lot less pollution than going out back and tossing my discs in a fire.
Or something...
The planet isn't going anywhere, but if we destroy biodiversity faster than the rate of evolution, we can screw up quality of life for ourselves and every other lifeform on the planet. We do have that much power, and I don't know about you, but I refuse to take a shit on my breakfast table not for the sake of the planet, but because I don't want a steaming turd and flies next to my cereal bowl. If people would accept that common sense type of conservationist attitude, I think we'd all be just fine. Don't waste too much, don't have too many kids, and recycle. Not rocket science.
D
Deleted member 83233
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Nope, it definitely isn't. I'd go so far as to say it's common sense. However, "studies" like these don't account for everything, and tend to highlight hand-picked use-cases to prove a point. That's kinda what brought about my ridiculing post above.
D
Deleted member 83233
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They account for transportation in the study, but only by truck, one way, and within the western EU. Their scope is highly flawed. If they went to a global scale which would be much more relevant, they'd have to account for aircraft, ships, etc. as well.
They also don't consider the possibility of energy efficient networking equipment (I know that's a bit of a stretch, but...) and only cover one platform (PS3) in the year 2010. The PS3 isn't exactly the most power efficient computing device in the world. Data transfer speeds, client types, (something like Star Citizen that allows HTTP and Peer to Peer transfers simultaneously would cut down on download times) should also be considered in a more global scenario...
They also don't consider the possibility of energy efficient networking equipment (I know that's a bit of a stretch, but...) and only cover one platform (PS3) in the year 2010. The PS3 isn't exactly the most power efficient computing device in the world. Data transfer speeds, client types, (something like Star Citizen that allows HTTP and Peer to Peer transfers simultaneously would cut down on download times) should also be considered in a more global scenario...
I wouldn't be surprised if this "study" was somehow secretly funded by console manufacturers.
D
Deleted member 83233
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This is a great study, and I wish everyone would read the whole thing, including footnotes.
"The higher emissions for optical disc production in the United States are mainly the result of the differences in transport and also differences in the carbon intensity of energy production and fuel use.9 Assuming BD production would be similar to CDs, carbon equivalent emissions for BDs in 2010 would only fall categorically below downloading for files above 11 GB in the United States (based on lower bound intensity)."
also
"If, however, consumers leave their consoles on especially to download games rather than use the background download feature (downloading while already watching a movie or playing a game), use public transport to purchase games from stores, or purchase games during shopping trips for other additional items, then the carbon emissions for BD would fair even better compared to downloading."
So yes, they have thought of that.
"The higher emissions for optical disc production in the United States are mainly the result of the differences in transport and also differences in the carbon intensity of energy production and fuel use.9 Assuming BD production would be similar to CDs, carbon equivalent emissions for BDs in 2010 would only fall categorically below downloading for files above 11 GB in the United States (based on lower bound intensity)."
also
"If, however, consumers leave their consoles on especially to download games rather than use the background download feature (downloading while already watching a movie or playing a game), use public transport to purchase games from stores, or purchase games during shopping trips for other additional items, then the carbon emissions for BD would fair even better compared to downloading."
So yes, they have thought of that.
A new study claims that boxed games results in lower greenhouse gas emissions than digitally downloaded games.
Pop quiz, hot shot. I download a car. This is a car that goes no less than 50 MPH. What do you do about pollution, Steve? What do you do?
D
Deleted member 83233
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This is a great study, and I wish everyone would read the whole thing, including footnotes.
"The higher emissions for optical disc production in the United States are mainly the result of the differences in transport and also differences in the carbon intensity of energy production and fuel use.9 Assuming BD production would be similar to CDs, carbon equivalent emissions for BDs in 2010 would only fall categorically below downloading for files above 11 GB in the United States (based on lower bound intensity)."
also
"If, however, consumers leave their consoles on especially to download games rather than use the background download feature (downloading while already watching a movie or playing a game), use public transport to purchase games from stores, or purchase games during shopping trips for other additional items, then the carbon emissions for BD would fair even better compared to downloading."
So yes, they have thought of that.
They're still working off nearly 5 year old data from a now dead console, and including 5 year old network technologies. I'm not saying their point is completely invalid, but I do question it's relevance now. 5 years is quite a while in technology terms. Dies are shrinking, power requirements are going down, more devices have more power saving features, software and interfaces allow a lot more simultaneous actions, peer transfers, etc. Also, you can't accurately put together a model for how many people turn their machines off, choose power friendly modes, or just plain leave all their stuff on all the time. Also, if you expand past just the one console, you've got people doing things like folding where their machines are on anyway doing fairly complex and power inefficient tasks already. This would skew the results, but if they're downloading a game while they're using the machine for another task, then even as mentioned in the article this mitigates it a bit. The article may have a point, but I personally can't see the data as anything but flawed, or at the very least far too limited.
D
Deleted member 83233
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Meant its not it's in the second sentence.
kbrickley
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This is a great study, and I wish everyone would read the whole thing, including footnotes.
"The higher emissions for optical disc production in the United States are mainly the result of the differences in transport and also differences in the carbon intensity of energy production and fuel use.9 Assuming BD production would be similar to CDs, carbon equivalent emissions for BDs in 2010 would only fall categorically below downloading for files above 11 GB in the United States (based on lower bound intensity)."
also
"If, however, consumers leave their consoles on especially to download games rather than use the background download feature (downloading while already watching a movie or playing a game), use public transport to purchase games from stores, or purchase games during shopping trips for other additional items, then the carbon emissions for BD would fair even better compared to downloading."
So yes, they have thought of that.
They mention them but their analysis is focused exclusively on a best case scenario in the EU (and around a console) ... although I might (and I emphasize the word "MIGHT") buy into this for a console, I do not feel this data is remotely reflective of the PC digital download situation (where we are still DVD based for physical media)
A console (generally) is a single purpose device (although the latest generations have tried to make them more multi-use in nature) ... it is going to be off or in standby when it is not being used ... this entire study is predicated on adding additional "on time" to the device because of the download
A PC study would need to consider different factors (which would likely favor downloading over physical):
- most of us keep our PCs on throughout the day or for extended hours in the evening because we used them to surf the web, read emails, work from home, etc so there is no downtime prevented if we multi-task and do downloading while we do those activities or while the PC is on but not being used for anything else
- PC games come on many discs that are manufactured in China (generally) and must be transported by air or surface (depending on when they go gold with respect to the launch date) ... PC games are unlikely to become Blu Ray specific anytime soon
- a lot of the download sites are part of distributed cloud services or centralized regional data centers ... they are likely going to exist for other reasons (support general software, patching, service, etc) regardless of whether they are used for new game download
- for those of us that buy PC games we are generally going to buy them through the mail because of limited local availability ... depending on the shipment method (many of us choose air) there will be even more carbon added
Although I think it is admirable for us to look at carbon reduction activities, I think we are missing the much bigger opportunities (new methods of power generation), more efficient automobile transport, reduction in waste (the physical packaging from a physical game purchase would factor into that equation), and many other factors that contribute far more carbon than downloading a game
One could argue that given the role that electricity plays in carbon generation, we should get all gamers to play in the dark (if we don't already) since the reduction in light would reduce heat in the house/apartment and overall electricity consumption
DejaWiz
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If ISP's would quit fucking customers over and just open up the bandwidth to Gigabit speeds for everyone, then we could all download our games in a fraction of the time it takes now, thus saving the planet from the evil polluting human inhabitants.
Let's keep the distinction clear, it is not truly electricity consumption that is the cause of the problem but electricity production. Yes consumption drives up demand for more production but the issue is production and of note is how and where that electricity is being produced. Is it coming from a Nuclear Power plant, Coal Powered, Hydroelectric Dam, Wind Farm, how?
Furthermore there are two ends and several stops between involved in a digital transfer from data center to the consumer power is being consumed at several points. Is your home equipped with solar panels? There is just more to it then what I have seen mentioned so far.
AthlonXP
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did gamestop pay for this study?
I was just thinking that.
viscountalpha
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The whole study sounds flawed and skewed from the start. Not even worth giving my time to even examine.