How And Why NSA Targets Network Admins

Leaked documents detail how and why the NSA targets network admins. For some reason (probably watched too many movies) I thought the whole process would be more involved than this.

Edward Snowden gave The Intercept a handful of screengrabs from an internal agency message board that, among other things, detail how the NSA can monitor calls and emails moving through a foreign telco's network simply by having access to the system admin's PC. The steps for that apparently include grabbing the admin's IP address, and from there hacking the user's Facebook or web-mail accounts to gain full access to their computer via surveillance malware.

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Your tax money well spent. Sounds like a worldwide crime syndicate.

I wonder what would happen to a prosecutor if that prosecutor tried to criminally charge the NSA for violating the CFAA.

Nice more of how the NSA could spy on Americans but don't. But hey, here is how they did things so the people we are spying on can avoid detection. This guy is truly a trustworthy adversary and is a hero to all.

NeghVar said:

I wonder what would happen to a prosecutor if that prosecutor tried to criminally charge the NSA for violating the CFAA.

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:As a man, I'm flesh and blood, I can be ignored, I can be destroyed; but as a symbol... as a symbol I can be incorruptible, I can be everlasting.
: What symbol?

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We need that symbol now more than ever. Something the NSA can't touch or find to destroy. Something they are afraid of. Something that can destroy them

NeghVar said:

I wonder what would happen to a prosecutor if that prosecutor tried to criminally charge the NSA for violating the CFAA.

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That prosecutor will either go missing or "made" to drop his charges either by bribes or threats/intimidation.

:As a man, I'm flesh and blood, I can be ignored, I can be destroyed; but as a symbol... as a symbol I can be incorruptible, I can be everlasting.
: What symbol?

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We need that symbol now more than ever. Something the NSA can't touch or find to destroy. Something they are afraid of. Something that can destroy them

Your tax money well spent. Sounds like a worldwide crime syndicate.

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Damn right it's money well spent.

The first bull shit thing about this article is this "The posts say nothing about how the NSA would sidestep inadvertently hacking system admins in the US either, or even system admins working for foreign companies on domestic soil."

In the first instance, this quote specifys exactly how they know who they are hacking.

The steps for that apparently include grabbing the admin's IP address, and from there hacking the user's Facebook or web-mail accounts to gain full access to their computer via surveillance malware.

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If they have the IP address they know if the system they are hacking belongs to a person or business who has US Person's status, all others are fair game, there for foreign companies on US Soil do NOT enjoy US Person's status just because they are in the US. They remain a foreign business entity.

The second big error in this article is

persistently monitoring civilians who've done nothing wrong in the off-chance that an enemy of the state could log on to their network.

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Intelligence services are NOT Law Enforcement, they are not after proof and the Military does not settle their differences in court. They worm their way into these systems to look for information that can be used against potential enemies, to look for weaknesses in individuals, organizations, militaries, governments, etc, that can be used to gain advantage if advantage is needed.

So, interesting as the article is, it doesn't point to the NSA doing anything that it isn't supposed to be doing. And as for money well spent, this is a way to gain information pretty cheaply compared to other methods involving launching satellites into orbit and covering James Bond's medical bills, for life. Pretty cheap for sure.

NeghVar, it works like this;

The NSA is doing their job and anything you try and drum up and claim is illegal is going to be very hard to prove as US Law is not written to protect non-US Persons. Do you get this basic principle, if they are not US, our laws do not protect them, and laws are written that expressly Direct them to conduct their work.

lcpiper said:

NeghVar, it works like this;

The NSA is doing their job and anything you try and drum up and claim is illegal is going to be very hard to prove as US Law is not written to protect non-US Persons. Do you get this basic principle, if they are not US, our laws do not protect them, and laws are written that expressly Direct them to conduct their work.

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The laws may not protect non-US Persons, but they sure do benefit from "US Law"

While this quote may not pertain to the NSA, it still shows how out of control the Federal government has become post 9/11

Quote from Ben Stein:

"Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured...but not everyone must prove they are a citizen." Now add this, "Many of those who refuse, or are unable, to prove they are citizens will receive free insurance paid for by those who are forced to buy insurance because they are citizens."

lcpiper said:

If they have the IP address they know if the system they are hacking belongs to a person or business who has US Person's status, all others are fair game,

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You blindly shill for the NSA nearly every time the topic comes up. If you really believe that one IP = one target, go work for the MPAA.

The fundamental questions are- "Do you want to live in a police state? / Do you think this is your tax dollars well spent?"

You believe "yes, sir"
I believe "absolutely not"

jarhead all the way...

While this quote may not pertain to the NSA, it still shows how out of control the Federal government has become post 9/11

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I do not dispute this at all. But while the Federal Government is huge, the NSA is but a part and falls within the control of the DoD as a DoD organization. Now I am not suggesting that the DoD is all candy and roses, that General up on Sexual Abuse charges comes readily to mind as a recent example of how any individual can become corrupted by his own weakness. But as an organization I DO dispute unfounded claims and attacks on the NSA.

B

y Ghost6303;
You blindly shill for the NSA nearly every time the topic comes up. If you really believe that one IP = one target, go work for the MPAA.

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Ghost6303, I do not think it is remotely fair to make the claim that I "blindly shill" for the NSA. I read these reports and articles carefully, I research them carefully, I apply my knowledge and experience to the information presented by these reporters and when comments are made in these forums I challenge them when they are false and show them their errors.

Like was said above, the Federal Government is way out of control. But if I allow people here to be misled then I do them a disservice. There are many things that are wrong but allowing this community to fixate on false problems denies them a clear view of real problems. Should I let them continue to focus on the Bull Fighter's red cape and not call attention to the sword at their heart?

Many here jealously guard their freedoms are understand the dangers of allowing them to be suborned or replaced. Isn't freedom of the press one of those very important freedoms that our forefathers recognized as important enough to ensure it remains free from government control? I don't see a free press these days do you? I see paid advertising, spin to the max.

How is it in our best interests to have a very few elements of the press, (consider carefully, not all of the media are on this particular band wagon, they may report but few actually push the attack), lead a determined attack against the NSA that has been repeatedly shown to be misleading and false?

How is it in our best interests to continue to support these reporter's claims of misdeeds when in fact the NSA are only doing their job and no organizational misconduct has been uncovered?

We do have an issue to address, the bulk meta-data collection program. It is an important issue and from it stems other issues like Telecom immunity from civil suit for complying with Government requests for user information and records. There are others as well, but we can't properly address these issues and figure out what is proper and what is not if we can't see them clearly for all the crap being flung around.

Now if trying to clear that air so we can see real problems and get them fixed is shilling for the NSA, well count me guilty as charged. After months of this I can't very well claim that I have had any positive impact on this problem. Not too many have stepped forward to ask questions as if they think there might be something to what I am saying. I certainly don't count someone calling for Snowden's execution without trial as a mark of success. I think he committed crimes, I think he should be tried. I think the reporters who continue to release classified sensitive information that is unrelated to US Privacy concerns should face charges but I doubt it will happen. The current administration is too tied up dealing with all their screw-ups to convince anyone that they are justified to do so, it would just look like hob-nailed boots hitting the street. Crap like that stunt the FCC tried to pull not long ago simply help mark just how screwed up these people who back this president and his administration really are.

My shilling hand is tired and this book is way to long, later.

By Ghost;
If you really believe that one IP = one target, go work for the MPAA.

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Oh, and about this Ghost, how is it that countries filter internet traffic or how is it that anyone can track packets and determine course? Every country has a range of IPs assigned for their region. The NSA can determine if an IP ir foreign or not but it isn't just because of the IP itself, it's also about where and in what part of the system the IP is being used. Checking the details on an email you received with a string of IPs in it is not the same as sitting on a router that is inside a communications satellite and sifting an IP.

lcpiper said:

NeghVar, it works like this;

The NSA is doing their job and anything you try and drum up and claim is illegal is going to be very hard to prove as US Law is not written to protect non-US Persons. Do you get this basic principle, if they are not US, our laws do not protect them, and laws are written that expressly Direct them to conduct their work.

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two things that need to be adressed in relation to your statement:

1) how exactly is the role of the nsa defined that allows this kind of action? if you define it as "everything that needs to be done to protect the united states of america", then this is way too broad.

2) do you think the nsa gives a shit about laws and will they care about whether someone is a US citizen or not? even if they cared, they can just ask the gchq to spy on americans and swap data. since they can circumvent the restriction to not spy on US citizens, the whole "foreigners are fair game" thing is outta the window.

3) you assume the nsa is benevolent towards US people. with that much power, a lot of corruption follows. they will abuse it because human nature inevitably leads that way.

temujin987 said:

two things that need to be adressed in relation to your statement:

1) how exactly is the role of the nsa defined that allows this kind of action? if you define it as "everything that needs to be done to protect the united states of america", then this is way too broad.

2) do you think the nsa gives a shit about laws and will they care about whether someone is a US citizen or not? even if they cared, they can just ask the gchq to spy on americans and swap data. since they can circumvent the restriction to not spy on US citizens, the whole "foreigners are fair game" thing is outta the window.

3) you assume the nsa is benevolent towards US people. with that much power, a lot of corruption follows. they will abuse it because human nature inevitably leads that way.

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"But xX326Xx says they aren't actually doing it, and Icpiper says it's no big deal!"
Anyone who claims the NSA limits their data collection based on anything other than the extreme limits of their technological capability is fooling themselves.

Meh, it's really sad to see the news media types feeding people who wanna be afraid of the government the big boogey man stuff they need to justify being irrational.

Temujin987, no reason to guess, it's all laid out in black and white for anyone to read.

http://www.archives.gov/federal-register/codification/executive-order/12333.html

This document is the primary document that set's forth their SIGINT Mission and Limitations.

...and when they violate those limitations, they get openly and transparently prosecuted for breaking the law, right?

do you think the nsa gives a shit about laws and will they care about whether someone is a US citizen or not?

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Absolutely, I KNOW it.

I worked SIGINT for the Army and according to that document above, I had to get retrained on that Executive Order every year, every year. The NSA must OK the Army to perform SIGINT and the Army must do it according to NSA regulations. We all knew, and always knew, violating those regulations would end your career at a minimum and earn you jail time if you really screwed up. We all got this stuff every year. I received this training annually from 1981 until just two years ago when I took my current job that isn't Top Secret and isn't involved with SIGINT.

There are posters at work with guys names and faces on them. Guys who decided these laws were not serious enough to follow. They are not happy faces. the people in this business are believers man, they believe the whole thing, Freedoms, Rights, and they see themselves as protectors. Of course you get some that start thinking they are special, but that's also why they take polygraphs all the time and go through extensive back ground checks. It's why they also go through a lot of annual security training and training on threats inside and out. They conduct internal audits of system activity and there is oversight internally and from outside the NSA.

....they can just ask the gchq to spy on americans and swap data.

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And you think this is true why? Because you just pulled it out of your ass? Do they share information? Yes, the US does share information with a few of our closest allies. But that does not mean the NSA is allowed to circumvent their Directives by going through third parties.

you assume the nsa is benevolent towards US people. with that much power, a lot of corruption follows. they will abuse it because human nature inevitably leads that way.

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No, what I assume is that it hasn't change much, it's been around for over 60 years and although I was never directly working for them, I was around the sidelines for almost half that time. I have been involved in many things in that time. I started as an Operator, became an Analyst, an Instructor, was trained on Automated Intelligence Systems because when I started it was all analog. Then I was teaching the first guys how to do Intel Analysis with Automated Systems. Then I became a software support guy, supported many different systems in and outside of the SIGINT world, and now I just do straight IT work and I am out of the Intel business these days.

The NSA has a mission, their people are focused on those missions. They don't just wander around browsing for shit to poke their noses into, they have more then enough to keep them focused on their mission targets. Unfortunately these reporters keep releasing information on how the NSA does business while leaving out the part about the targets being foreign and legitimate targets. They are doing this so you and I can put the word "us" into the picture on our own. They let us make that assumption and some of you are getting straight A's on that one.

Hey, it's late, I am going home, have a good weekend.

Status: Mini-Me is online now
...and when they violate those limitations, they get openly and transparently prosecuted for breaking the law, right?

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Mini-Me, no, they get reported to the Department of Justice if the infraction warrants it. It is up to them to charge them with a criminal offense if they want to. It's not up to the NSA to punish themselves.

What pisses me off about the whole NSA stuff is if a citizen was caught doing a fraction of those things to a megacorporation it would probably involved being sent to jail for life. Yet, the NSA can do whatever the hell they want and are above the law.

lcpiper said:

Mini-Me, no, they get reported to the Department of Justice if the infraction warrants it. It is up to them to charge them with a criminal offense if they want to. It's not up to the NSA to punish themselves.

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They "get reported" to the complicit Department of Justice...by which completely unbiased and independent entity?
Also, emphasis on "if they want to," which is about one time out of a billion or so.

lcpiper said:

Absolutely, I KNOW it.

I worked SIGINT for the Army and according to that document above, I had to get retrained on that Executive Order every year, every year. The NSA must OK the Army to perform SIGINT and the Army must do it according to NSA regulations. We all knew, and always knew, violating those regulations would end your career at a minimum and earn you jail time if you really screwed up. We all got this stuff every year. I received this training annually from 1981 until just two years ago when I took my current job that isn't Top Secret and isn't involved with SIGINT.

There are posters at work with guys names and faces on them. Guys who decided these laws were not serious enough to follow. They are not happy faces. the people in this business are believers man, they believe the whole thing, Freedoms, Rights, and they see themselves as protectors. Of course you get some that start thinking they are special, but that's also why they take polygraphs all the time and go through extensive back ground checks. It's why they also go through a lot of annual security training and training on threats inside and out. They conduct internal audits of system activity and there is oversight internally and from outside the NSA.

And you think this is true why? Because you just pulled it out of your ass? Do they share information? Yes, the US does share information with a few of our closest allies. But that does not mean the NSA is allowed to circumvent their Directives by going through third parties.



No, what I assume is that it hasn't change much, it's been around for over 60 years and although I was never directly working for them, I was around the sidelines for almost half that time. I have been involved in many things in that time. I started as an Operator, became an Analyst, an Instructor, was trained on Automated Intelligence Systems because when I started it was all analog. Then I was teaching the first guys how to do Intel Analysis with Automated Systems. Then I became a software support guy, supported many different systems in and outside of the SIGINT world, and now I just do straight IT work and I am out of the Intel business these days.

The NSA has a mission, their people are focused on those missions. They don't just wander around browsing for shit to poke their noses into, they have more then enough to keep them focused on their mission targets. Unfortunately these reporters keep releasing information on how the NSA does business while leaving out the part about the targets being foreign and legitimate targets. They are doing this so you and I can put the word "us" into the picture on our own. They let us make that assumption and some of you are getting straight A's on that one.

Hey, it's late, I am going home, have a good weekend.

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Not that I'm disagreeing with you, but you're focusing on the group of people which are under tight control. Typically, corruption happens much higher up the ladder, where these things you've spelled out can be waved aside without anyone batting an eye.

ghost6303 said:

You blindly shill for the NSA nearly every time the topic comes up. If you really believe that one IP = one target, go work for the MPAA.

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To be fair he doesn't blindly shill for the NSA, he's a NSA employee. Also to be fair he has disclosed that many times. However, I still wouldn't trust Stalin if he told me that he was a a great guy.

lcpiper said:

Mini-Me, no, they get reported to the Department of Justice if the infraction warrants it. It is up to them to charge them with a criminal offense if they want to. It's not up to the NSA to punish themselves.

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Yeah,whatever. The watchers are blind and dont care. As an example the FBI is administered by the DoJ... You think they're law enforcement right? Wrong! Im typing this on a cell phone so ill just leave this video libk instaed of punishing my thumbs....

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WDLFmNqm_4M

This tactic is nothing new. The Chinese government did the same thing with the New York Times. Article says NSA is targeting foreign network admins. I have no issue with that.

canna said:

To be fair he doesn't blindly shill for the NSA, he's a NSA employee. Also to be fair he has disclosed that many times. However, I still wouldn't trust Stalin if he told me that he was a a great guy.

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For the record, I think that you'd understand better if you worked for the NSA or in some sort of setting that let you see a bigger, broader picture. A lot of the people that complain the loudest about what the government is doing haven't got any internal perspective and make it obvious they don't and can't understand because of their life circumstances or just the unfortunate state of how they were raised by their parents. They spend their lives selectively exposing themselves to fear-mongering, slanted views thrown out there by questionable mainstream media seeking ratings and attention or extremist fringe publications without ever stopping to think about things with less emotion and consider the craziness of what they're buying into. I think what makes it worse is they then take these half-cooked views and notions concieved without accurate information and retell their stories online as if they've reached some sensible conclusion all by themselves (forgetting how it was spooned into their unthinking minds).

It's really good to have opposing views and to be able to discuss them with each other, but a lot of stuff on this particular forum comes from really extreme ideas and bad places. That kind of talk shared among easily influenced people can cause dissent and encourage people to do things they really shouldn't, endangering their innocent families and causing social turmoil by improperly addressing problems outside constructive democratic processes. It's very selfish of people to act like that and even worse when they just don't, shouldn't, and can't know what really is going on out there in the world.