Retailers Snooping on Holiday Shoppers Raises Privacy Concerns

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Every year there is the same uproar over customer tracking, and every year some retailer apologizes for doing it, only to have more stores do the same thing the following year. :confused:

New technologies for tracking shoppers in-store, in real time, make this possible. Some rely on signals emitted by customers' smart phones. Another uses images from store security cameras. Prism Skylabs' technology analyzes security camera images to give retailers "heat maps," on which hot colors such as red or orange denote the items customers are finding most desirable.
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eh... you're in my store and me knowing where the customers are is a privacy issue?
 
So when Kroger does this to keep checkout times minimal its good, but if Macy's does this to track lets say what departments get shopped the most its an invasion of privacy?

Your in public, not your bedroom people
 
Doesn't matter where the fuck I'm at... if you are connecting to/tracking my phone without my consent then you're god damn right it's a privacy issue because only my cell provider is allowed that kind of access to my device.

If you think it's okay to track my phone, then it's cool for me to access your private computers and networks in any way I see fit as well.

It's one thing to watch people with cameras, it's another to actively and illegally track them like you are the NSA.
 
I see no problem with the Prism Skylabs' system as it is passively observing movements in the store in a generic manner, I do however take issue with stores using devices we pay high monthly fees for to track us individually and even try to use our devices to try and sell us more crap we don't need!
 
WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot said:
Doesn't matter where the fuck I'm at... if you are connecting to/tracking my phone without my consent then you're god damn right it's a privacy issue because only my cell provider is allowed that kind of access to my device.

If you think it's okay to track my phone, then it's cool for me to access your private computers and networks in any way I see fit as well.

It's one thing to watch people with cameras, it's another to actively and illegally track them like you are the NSA.
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I don't think they are connecting to your phone, I think it's more like your router detecting WiFi signals -- I'm sure you don't ask permission when you do that, right? If it's more than that, then you have a valid complaints but you are walking into their store by choice or not entering, in which it shouldn't affect you.

The only thing out of bounds, I think, should be cameras into dressing stalls for obvious reasons.
 
Does anyone know why people are always complaining about something?
 
I don't care. It's their property. They aren't watching me poop, just trying to be more efficient at retail...
 
If you don't want your phone signal tracked, turn it off. Simple as that.

You come into my store, emit electromagnetic signals? How dare you! ;) Besides that, it's MY store. I now know that someone is in my store and I can get a rough idea of where you have gone. 100 people do this, I can see traffic patterns based on layout, what merchandise is where. Then, use that information to move things about (such as moving slower movers to a higher traffic area), see how that works, and do it again. The actual data of your device, that uniquely identifies your device, not important - just the signal.

It's still passive tracking.

Stores have done it for decades. Surveillance cameras have been used for this - analog, with humans viewing, logging. With digital tech, code has been written to track movements. Adding in a phone signal? Just that much more accurate.

No, I don't own or work in store, just an engineer.

What I find funny is that the people that scream "PRIVACY VIOLATION" the most are the ones that "check in" on social media every time they enter a place, post every 10 minutes about where they are, what the are doing, have 100000's of pictures of them (and their friends / family) doing things. Just my observation.
 
Term-X said:
I don't think they are connecting to your phone, I think it's more like your router detecting WiFi signals -- I'm sure you don't ask permission when you do that, right? If it's more than that, then you have a valid complaints but you are walking into their store by choice or not entering, in which it shouldn't affect you.

The only thing out of bounds, I think, should be cameras into dressing stalls for obvious reasons.
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So following that logic Walmart should be able to inject an RFID into anyone entering their stores since, after all, they are entering by choice.

As for my router detecting Wi-Fi signals, that's a total straw man, since in effect they aren't just randomly detecting cellphones signals but going out of their way to identify and track those signals. Consider it this way, there is a huge difference in having someone casually look into the window of your house as they walk buy and someone building an observation post next store to you and directly cameras at all windows and doors of your house.

Also let's not forget Google is still getting flack for doing nothing more then recording wi-fi signals as their street view cars drove around.
 
DarkStar_WNY said:
So following that logic Walmart should be able to inject an RFID into anyone entering their stores since, after all, they are entering by choice.

As for my router detecting Wi-Fi signals, that's a total straw man, since in effect they aren't just randomly detecting cellphones signals but going out of their way to identify and track those signals. Consider it this way, there is a huge difference in having someone casually look into the window of your house as they walk buy and someone building an observation post next store to you and directly cameras at all windows and doors of your house.

Also let's not forget Google is still getting flack for doing nothing more then recording wi-fi signals as their street view cars drove around.
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If you say, "following that logic", you can't follow it up with something that is both illogical and irrelevant... THEN go on to paint another argument as a strawman when what you quoted wasn't a strawman, but your post is.
 
LeninGHOLA said:
If you say, "following that logic", you can't follow it up with something that is both illogical and irrelevant... THEN go on to paint another argument as a strawman when what you quoted wasn't a strawman, but your post is.
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Not surprisingly your wrong, the person to whom I was responding said basically said there is no difference between your router detecting a random signal and a store installing equipment to track your signal as you walk through the store and even use it to try and sell you stuff.

HUGE difference.


Kelby said:
Turning my phone off. Problem solved.
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jflail2 said:
Airplane mode for the win. Very easy solution here.
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While I don't disagree the question, IMO at least, is should you have to? When you buy yourself a smartphone are you buying it to be a tool for you or a tool for those trying to sell you crap?

Also how far do we want to take this? There are a few internal and external medical devices which send out faint signals as well. Should a store be allowed to track your pacemaker, insulin pump, or other medical electrical device and use it to try and sell you nitro paste, needles, or diabetic socks?

Things like this are like government programs in that once they are allowed to begin they will never go away and instead will simply grow in size and intrusiveness.
 
DarkStar_WNY said:
Not surprisingly your wrong, the person to whom I was responding said basically said there is no difference between your router detecting a random signal and a store installing equipment to track your signal as you walk through the store and even use it to try and sell you stuff.

HUGE difference.
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Explain this huge difference. Is it intent? Can it be easily circumvented? Is it legal? Is it even remotely a big deal? Is it different than logging the same information at the register? Is it different than targeted ads on the internet?

Now, explain how I'm wrong.
 
LeninGHOLA said:
If you say, "following that logic", you can't follow it up with something that is both illogical and irrelevant... THEN go on to paint another argument as a strawman when what you quoted wasn't a strawman, but your post is.
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Sorry didn't finish my response to you.

Further the commenter I responded to stated that you could avoid it simply buy not entering the store, which is why I asked if they could inject the tags, since you could avoid it by simply not entering the store.

While I admit it's a stretch it's sort of like the old joke about a guy asking a woman if she would have sex with him for a million dollars and when she says yes he asks if she would for $10 and when she gets upset and asks what kind of woman do you think she is he states simply "You've already shown what kind of woman you are, now we are just negotiating the price."
 
Now if they could use this to get employees on cleanup duty in the right areas. I walked through a Macys last night and sections looked like an IED had gone off.
 
DarkStar_WNY said:
Sorry didn't finish my response to you.

Further the commenter I responded to stated that you could avoid it simply buy not entering the store, which is why I asked if they could inject the tags, since you could avoid it by simply not entering the store.
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Apples and Oranges. My comments were about the situation at hand; I don't remember discussing the ethics of getting an injection. We're talking about air waves here; again, as long as they are not interfering with or somehow using that signal to get into our conversations and/or data on the phone, then I don't see a foul.

Probably not the most accurate analogy but it's like the chimes they place on the entrance doors in some shops. They do it intentionally, yes, to know when a customer is coming or going.
 
I love the what if they hack my phone, inject an RFID in me, and then cut off a finger so they can follow the blood trail around the store arguments.

I have tinfoil hats and corrugated steel sheets that block ELF and DEW rays to sell you.
 
Term-X said:
Apples and Oranges. My comments were about the situation at hand; I don't remember discussing the ethics of getting an injection. We're talking about air waves here; again, as long as they are not interfering with or somehow using that signal to get into our conversations and/or data on the phone, then I don't see a foul.

Probably not the most accurate analogy but it's like the chimes they place on the entrance doors in some shops. They do it intentionally, yes, to know when a customer is coming or going.
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Well unless the chimes identify you individually, follow you around and record where you go and how long you stay there the analogy doesn't work.

As I stated above, I have no problem with them using cameras to track people in general, but when they use a service I pay for to benefit them I have a problem with that.

Maybe the injection was the wrong thing to select, how about placing a RIFD tag on your shoulder as you walk in? Or using the signal put out by your medical device, be it a pacemaker or something else, to detect you and try and sell you items?
 
gunbust3r said:
I love the what if they hack my phone, inject an RFID in me, and then cut off a finger so they can follow the blood trail around the store arguments.

I have tinfoil hats and corrugated steel sheets that block ELF and DEW rays to sell you.
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No one said they would inject anything, it was simply put forth due to the comment that using your phone to track you isn't a big deal since you choose to enter the store and can avoid it just by not entering it.

Now with that being said why would you doubt that this will only get worse, when the story itself talks about Apple selling products so stores can target iphone users with personalized ads in the stores? (Good thing it wasn't MS doing that to Windows phone users or Apple fans would be screaming bloody murder.)
 
...security camera images to give retailers "heat maps," on which hot colors such as red or orange denote the items customers are finding most desirable.

Could run through the store touching everything to screw up their tracking and they will think everything is desirable.
 
DarkStar_WNY said:
Well unless the chimes identify you individually, follow you around and record where you go and how long you stay there the analogy doesn't work.

As I stated above, I have no problem with them using cameras to track people in general, but when they use a service I pay for to benefit them I have a problem with that.

Maybe the injection was the wrong thing to select, how about placing a RIFD tag on your shoulder as you walk in? Or using the signal put out by your medical device, be it a pacemaker or something else, to detect you and try and sell you items?
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1) The article stated that cameras are used with software to generate heatmaps to locate users in the store and track movements. This is a tool for retailers to get products seen, know how opent people are in the clearance sections and so on.

2) Wifi signals is an open standard, they don't hack your wifi to say (except google, they actually did and collected information on it), from what I have seen on these systems, they do nothing more than triangulate the position of the device, the do not connect to it.

3) If they were to track if your phone is on a call via cell phone radio waves, once again, they are not snooping on your calls or hijacking a service your paying for, they simple associate that 10 people are in the store, and 8 of them are on the phone.

From my reading, these systems use open frequency detection to find out what is going on, they don't get into your phone and say "Ohhhhhhh snap, customer A played angry birds for 40 minutes today while waiting on the metro bus"
 
Megalith said:
Does anyone know why people are always complaining about something?
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Bahahaha I was thinking this too. Even if they tracked that I was looking at sexy panties AND they linked it to who I was I still wouldn't care! :)
 
Dayaks said:
Bahahaha I was thinking this too. Even if they tracked that I was looking at sexy panties AND they linked it to who I was I still wouldn't care! :)
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Because they would probably send you a coupon for said sexy panties lol
 
DarkStar_WNY said:
As I stated above, I have no problem with them using cameras to track people in general, but when they use a service I pay for to benefit them I have a problem with that.
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The escalation game works both ways...

You pay for power to turn on your pc. You pay for internet to connect your pc to the internet. You then buy something from Amazon, which tracks you and remembers EVERYTHING you look at, and then make a sale.

So Amazon is stealing your power! You should be able to purchase things from Amazon without them consuming your power and internets!

To me, it sounds like more people need to build fallout shelters so they can safely play scrabble wearing their tin foil hats.
 
I have a great idea ! Don't use a cell phone; mankind has for thousands of years managed to communicate with one.
 
If you take this as far out as some OMG PRIVACY people already have, one could also argue that a manager people watching in his/her store to gather the same data that these computer programs and whatnot gather is also an invasion of privacy.
 
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