U.S Government Accused of Surveilling Citizens

CommanderFrank

CommanderFrank

Cat Can't Scratch It
Joined
May 9, 2000
Messages
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William Binney proclaims that the US is spying on its own citizens using a data collection system that he helped create for the NSA. Binney claims that the government collects data from citizens and stores all of it in a $2B data storage facility in Utah. Time to don those tin-foil hats again folks. :eek:

The program, which Binney says he helped create, was never meant for domestic surveillance but the agency has supposedly been spying on U.S. citizens for more than a decade now.
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So the government has become fearful of its citizens...?
This never bodes well for the citizens
 
Don't bring out the tinfoil shit. Stuff like this has been captain obvious for at the VERY LEAST 5 years. Welcome to seeing it on the interwebs :rolleyes:
 
Although it's good to see this being brought up for the long term fluoride water drinkers, it's like saying the sun is accused of blasting UV rays on humans at this point. Again, still good to see....lol
 
Drones flying over our heads, our emails and phone calls being snatched out of the air, thermal imaging devices being given to police departments...and with each step, we're told to stop being paranoid.

At what point can the pro-statists recognize what's happening?
 
C'est la vie ... such is the price of the internet I think ... same as roads gave us freedom of movement but the police now had a convenient spot to sit and watch whether we follow the rules of the road (including speed traps and DUI checkpoints) ... the internet has given us freedom of communication but given governments and corporations a convenient spot to sit and watch at least some of of what we do ...

given the massive amounts of information people are constantly generating you have to wonder whether some of these tin foil conspiracies are even possible ... I sometimes wonder if the government doesn't perpetuate some of these rumors since it scares people straight or scares them to the venues the government actually can monitor effectively (much like the military encouraged the whole Roswell thing since Aliens made a much better topic than spy technology) ;)
 
Cruiza said:
I'm OK with the government promoting safety...
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Even if that safety involves violation of your Fourth Amendment rights by forcing you to stop and submit to a breathalyzer test simply by virtue of the fact that you drove on a road with a checkpoint?
 
Cruiza said:
I'm OK with the government promoting safety...
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As am I ... I didn't want to indicate that as a complaint against the price of roads ... but just an indication of the price of convenience

A lot of people don't seem to have a problem with a company like Google monitoring everything they do, but if it is the government suspected of doing it (and this is not a proven allegation) the sun explodes for the tin foil crowd (although to give them their due THEY probably do care about Google monitoring them since they think Google is part of the "Secret World Government") :D:p
 
Stiletto said:
Even if that safety involves violation of your Fourth Amendment rights by forcing you to stop and submit to a breathalyzer test simply by virtue of the fact that you drove on a road with a checkpoint?
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Okay, I'll take the bait. I don't mind at all.

I also think that the government has an obligation to not only protect its citizens from outsider threats, but also from insider crazies as well. If this is the way that happens, well okay. *shrug* So what if they find out you like to read DragonBall Z fanfics and are interested in a foot-only tanning box?
 
SkribbelKat said:
Okay, I'll take the bait. I don't mind at all.

I also think that the government has an obligation to not only protect its citizens from outsider threats, but also from insider crazies as well. If this is the way that happens, well okay. *shrug* So what if they find out you like to read DragonBall Z fanfics and are interested in a foot-only tanning box?
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The government is supposed to protect us from enemies, foreign and domestic...not threats. Do you understand that very important distinction?

Every time the government finds a new way to "protect" us, they find a new way to limit our liberty.
 
SkribbelKat said:
Okay, I'll take the bait. I don't mind at all.

I also think that the government has an obligation to not only protect its citizens from outsider threats, but also from insider crazies as well. If this is the way that happens, well okay. *shrug* So what if they find out you like to read DragonBall Z fanfics and are interested in a foot-only tanning box?
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I am more worried about the sanity of their computer reading the email ... it nearly drives me crazy trying to sift through the medical and physical enhancement opportunities that apparently are readily available as well as the numerous job opportunities that allow me to make a six figure salary while never leaving the sanctity of my home and only requiring a few hours a week of actual work ... I sense the making of a future Skynet :eek::p:D
 
Stiletto said:
The government is supposed to protect us from enemies, foreign and domestic...not threats. Do you understand that very important distinction?

Every time the government finds a new way to "protect" us, they find a new way to limit our liberty.
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Yup, I gotcha and I'm totally okay with that happening.
 
Bust out the tin foil hats? you seriously believe the government isnt tracking/spying on people (US Citizens) in this country? Or is your issue with the $2B storage facility in Utah?
 
kbrickley said:
I am more worried about the sanity of their computer reading the email ... it nearly drives me crazy trying to sift through the medical and physical enhancement opportunities that apparently are readily available as well as the numerous job opportunities that allow me to make a six figure salary while never leaving the sanctity of my home and only requiring a few hours a week of actual work ... I sense the making of a future Skynet :eek::p:D
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So Skynet will be created by accident when someone makes a data mining system that gets sick and tired of reading about making body parts larger or starting a franchise business. I guess that's a better option than the data mining system learning self-awareness based on the information it reads. OMG giant Skynet spam bot!
 
Cyraxx said:
Don't bring out the tinfoil shit. Stuff like this has been captain obvious for at the VERY LEAST 5 years. Welcome to seeing it on the interwebs :rolleyes:
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Bush started this shit a lot longer than 5 years ago.
 
Stiletto said:
I gotcha, and that's a sad commentary on the national attitude.
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I guess it can be sad to see someone have a positive attitude or look for the good in a government instead of taking the easy path to being outraged about everything it does.
 
BettiePage said:
Bust out the tin foil hats? you seriously believe the government isnt tracking/spying on people (US Citizens) in this country? Or is your issue with the $2B storage facility in Utah?
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It's the only way they can get their pR0n without leaving a trace.
 
SkribbelKat said:
Okay, I'll take the bait. I don't mind at all.

I also think that the government has an obligation to not only protect its citizens from outsider threats, but also from insider crazies as well. If this is the way that happens, well okay. *shrug* So what if they find out you like to read DragonBall Z fanfics and are interested in a foot-only tanning box?
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It opens up guilt by association and guilt by implication issues down the road for starters, lots of naive folks say "if you're not guilty you have nothing to fear" and don't understand what the right to privacy protects them from.

If one day down the road the government decides that this or that particular group - say, dragonball z fans in your example being associated with some anti-nationalist activity, whatever - then you popping up in a data mining exercise through a national citizens' database means free ticket to interrogation room.

Yes it's a silly example - a more common example is being put on the watchlist for having a name similar to someone deemed a threat, or because you attended a rally or demonstration, I think even a congressman got caught in this sort of dragnet a while ago - but these things happened before in human history.

I tried looking up a good article I read a while ago that covered the issue in detail, but can't seem to find it now, but google did turn up an interesting example of how a system without proper safeguards can go out of hand:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/04/11/493499/-Why-I-Think-I-m-On-The-Watch-List-w-poll

"We have a website that collects and posts articles on progressive issues. The articles we post are often critical of foreign and domestic policies that perpetuate oppression, violence and injustice. What- are we nuts? After the aforementioned questioning my husband went through in the airport we decided to tone it down and post lighter topics. Call us sell-outs but you have to pick your battles."
 
SkribbelKat said:
Okay, I'll take the bait. I don't mind at all.

I also think that the government has an obligation to not only protect its citizens from outsider threats, but also from insider crazies as well. If this is the way that happens, well okay. *shrug* So what if they find out you like to read DragonBall Z fanfics and are interested in a foot-only tanning box?
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SkribbelKat said:
Yup, I gotcha and I'm totally okay with that happening.
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So your saying "if you've got nothing to hide then why are you worried?" in a roundabout way. This is a great way to put the masses at ease as they slowly tighten the grip until they are choking us in our everyday lives, conversations, etc. How will you feel when people start getting knocks on their door from men in suits becaus they texted their friends "that's the bomb!" one too many times?

You may not care that someone is spying on your conversations and daily life, but I do care, and you really should too. You wouldn't want a crazy girlfriend that picks up your phone to read all your text messages to see who you're talking to would you? Why would you want a crazy government that can do the same thing, without you even realizing it?


A great man once wrote "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." any guesses as to who?
 
I guess some people in this thread don't mind fascism at all it seems...


And a big "duh" on the Government monitoring us. Of course they don't trust their citizens ..have they ever? The treat us like sheep.
 
I like taking personal responsibility for my own safety. THe whole reason I moved out from under my parents is because I got tired of them telling me what to do, curfew, chores, when to wake up, when to go to sleep, where I'm at every minute of every day, etc. Why would I want to substitute my parents for government?

Not to say that it's bad. I guess some people love having the ILLUSION of freedom/liberty/safety because it's just like living with your parents.
 
Wierdo said:
It opens up guilt by association and guilt by implication issues down the road for starters, lots of naive folks say "if you're not guilty you have nothing to fear" and don't understand what the right to privacy protects them from.

If one day down the road the government decides that this or that particular group - say, dragonball z fans in your example being associated with some anti-nationalist activity, whatever - then you popping up in a data mining exercise through a national citizens' database means free ticket to interrogation room.

Yes it's a silly example - a more common example is being put on the watchlist for having a name similar to someone deemed a threat, or because you attended a rally or demonstration, I think even a congressman got caught in this sort of dragnet a while ago - but these things happened before in human history.

I tried looking up a good article I read a while ago that covered the issue in detail, but can't seem to find it now, but google did turn up an interesting example of how a system without proper safeguards can go out of hand:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/04/11/493499/-Why-I-Think-I-m-On-The-Watch-List-w-poll

"We have a website that collects and posts articles on progressive issues. The articles we post are often critical of foreign and domestic policies that perpetuate oppression, violence and injustice. What- are we nuts? After the aforementioned questioning my husband went through in the airport we decided to tone it down and post lighter topics. Call us sell-outs but you have to pick your battles."
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There's no perfect system. We generally accept the judicial system as it stands, even when the occasional person is wrongly accused and convicted because it works well enough. If I get tagged as some manical lunatic by mistake and questioned over it, that really doesn't bother me because, by the time someone tips their hand to a person being watched by dragging them off for a few questions, they've already done extensive background investigations that they feel justifies letting the target become aware.
 
Absentee said:
So your saying "if you've got nothing to hide then why are you worried?" in a roundabout way. This is a great way to put the masses at ease as they slowly tighten the grip until they are choking us in our everyday lives, conversations, etc. How will you feel when people start getting knocks on their door from men in suits becaus they texted their friends "that's the bomb!" one too many times?

You may not care that someone is spying on your conversations and daily life, but I do care, and you really should too. You wouldn't want a crazy girlfriend that picks up your phone to read all your text messages to see who you're talking to would you? Why would you want a crazy government that can do the same thing, without you even realizing it?


A great man once wrote "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." any guesses as to who?
Click to expand...

No, I'm not saying that you have nothing to worry about if you're not doing something wrong. I'm saying, "Meh, I just don't don't really mind being watched."
 
Stiletto said:
Even if that safety involves violation of your Fourth Amendment rights by forcing you to stop and submit to a breathalyzer test simply by virtue of the fact that you drove on a road with a checkpoint?
Click to expand...

I think you need to read the 4th Amendment again. Or do you disagree with the concept that it is a reasonable search versus and unreasonable search? , ie the basis upon which the US Supreme Court ruled them valid.


Wierdo said:
It opens up guilt by association and guilt by implication issues down the road for starters, lots of naive folks say "if you're not guilty you have nothing to fear" and don't understand what the right to privacy protects them from.

If one day down the road the government decides that this or that particular group - say, dragonball z fans in your example being associated with some anti-nationalist activity, whatever - then you popping up in a data mining exercise through a national citizens' database means free ticket to interrogation room.

Yes it's a silly example - a more common example is being put on the watchlist for having a name similar to someone deemed a threat, or because you attended a rally or demonstration, I think even a congressman got caught in this sort of dragnet a while ago - but these things happened before in human history.

I tried looking up a good article I read a while ago that covered the issue in detail, but can't seem to find it now, but google did turn up an interesting example of how a system without proper safeguards can go out of hand:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/04/11/493499/-Why-I-Think-I-m-On-The-Watch-List-w-poll

"We have a website that collects and posts articles on progressive issues. The articles we post are often critical of foreign and domestic policies that perpetuate oppression, violence and injustice. What- are we nuts? After the aforementioned questioning my husband went through in the airport we decided to tone it down and post lighter topics. Call us sell-outs but you have to pick your battles."
Click to expand...



Not withstanding the validity of the source and even though you provided a link it is still misleading to quote only one possible reason even though there were several other valid reasons they were willing to admit too if not more they did not.
 
Godmachine said:
I guess some people in this thread don't mind fascism at all it seems...


And a big "duh" on the Government monitoring us. Of course they don't trust their citizens ..have they ever? The treat us like sheep.
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Of course it is possible that some people don't like hyperbole ;) ... this is an allegation that the government is spying on us (not a proven fact) ... although it might be true it has absolutely nothing to do with Fascism ... The UK has cameras everywhere that monitor their citizens quite closely (although not necessarily real time) ... and I am pretty sure the UK is not a Fascist country

Whether "tools" like these can be used to encourage Fascism is anybody's guess ... Hitler and Musolini seemed to do the whole Fascist gig pretty effectively without the internet. I think one of the risks of the internet is a loss of privacy. Whether it is the government getting access to information that might not have been available to them otherwise, or Google and Amazon analyzing my purchasing habits to target the ads I receive, or malevelant hackers stealing or intercepting my information for their own nefarious ends I lose a certain amount of control as soon as I start communicating electronically. I can rage against it all I want and say its okay for Google, Amazon, and the hackers but no no no for the government all I want ... but I still chose to put my info into cyberspace where it became fair game.

Personally I would be more upset if the government was listening to my phone conversations or reading my snail mail (as I actually do have an expectation of privacy with those). As I said C'est la Vie (Such is Life) ;)
 
SkribbelKat said:
No, I'm not saying that you have nothing to worry about if you're not doing something wrong. I'm saying, "Meh, I just don't don't really mind being watched."
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That is exactly what you are saying though. "I don't really mind being watched [because I have nothing to hide]". And again, Mr Franklin's quote is in full effect.
 
SkribbelKat said:
Okay, I'll take the bait. I don't mind at all.

I also think that the government has an obligation to not only protect its citizens from outsider threats, but also from insider crazies as well. If this is the way that happens, well okay. *shrug* So what if they find out you like to read DragonBall Z fanfics and are interested in a foot-only tanning box?
Click to expand...

It is incredibly scary to me that you have no fear of corruption...especially when the government has shown time and time again that it will go that route. Bad people getting power and using information in bad ways is something everyone should always be concerned about...even if they are not doing anything bad.
 
kydsid said:
I think you need to read the 4th Amendment again. Or do you disagree with the concept that it is a reasonable search versus and unreasonable search? , ie the basis upon which the US Supreme Court ruled them valid.
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It isn't a reasonable search. It's a search based on you landing in a location, not on you exhibiting suspicious behavior. There's such a thing as "reasonable and articulable suspicion", and DUI checkpoints do not meet that criteria in any way. They are unconstitutional searches of your blood alcohol level, essentially.
 
SkribbelKat said:
I guess it can be sad to see someone have a positive attitude or look for the good in a government instead of taking the easy path to being outraged about everything it does.
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There's such a thing as oblivious optimism, which you seem to possess. Government is not a good thing, it is a necessary evil. The best government is that which is most restrained by its people. People like you have no interest in restraining it. Plenty of well-intentioned people allowed horrific governments to seize total power over their citizen's lives.
 
Well, if they are spying on me right this very minute...

*ahem*

21718_gallery.jpg

... and, can I have tour of Area 51-- full and unrestricted access?

Kidding aside, if true, what in the world would they need this information for except for the "protection and security of the American people"?
 
kydsid said:
Not withstanding the validity of the source and even though you provided a link it is still misleading to quote only one possible reason even though there were several other valid reasons they were willing to admit too if not more they did not.
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The other reasons are all there, it's fine to pick any of those examples, they're all perfectly good ones, the point is to illustrate what silly things can potentially get you in trouble when "you have nothing to hide" mentality gradually unravels the safeguards that protect us from government abuse, it's a path toward authoritarianism, many democracies ended that way in the past.
 
Absentee said:
That is exactly what you are saying though. "I don't really mind being watched [because I have nothing to hide]". And again, Mr Franklin's quote is in full effect.
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You really, really want me to say that so an argument that isn't relevant (one you've presented and practiced before in similar threads) is easily applied in a modular manner to me as well so I fit into your mental categorization of people types which can be walled off by an existing line of thinking. I'm sorry that my apathy doesn't fit into your previously established thought structures, but it still doesn't mean that what you think I'm saying is what I am saying.

CorruptedOne said:
It is incredibly scary to me that you have no fear of corruption...especially when the government has shown time and time again that it will go that route. Bad people getting power and using information in bad ways is something everyone should always be concerned about...even if they are not doing anything bad.
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The government is a reflection of society. People serving within it are no better or worse than any other set of people. People who fear corruption should unilaterally fear it across all humans and not just those who happen to be filling a public office. -- Perhaps I'm doing just that already which is why I'm not finding a reason to be upset or overly concerned.
 
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