Gabe Newell Talks Linux Steam Client, Source Engine

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Good news for all you alternative OS types out there, a Linux Steam client is coming. Let's just hope it comes out before Half-Life Episode 3. ;)

It has taken longer than most anyone would have anticipated, but the fact remains that Valve is in fact creating a native Linux port of their Steam game distribution client and of the Source Engine to run natively on Linux. Valve does have some great plans for Linux beyond just shipping the client versions of Steam and their popular games on the Source Engine.
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BRB, gonna look for my Windows 7 DVD.

windows7e_axe.jpg
 
I wonder if it's going to be a sort of combination of Crossover (Wine GUI) and Steam emulated within to launch Win32 games that lack Linux ports.
 
more likely a port of the Mac client since OS X is really just BSD it wouldnt take much to make all the Mac stuff work on Linux as well
 
Azhar said:
I wonder if it's going to be a sort of combination of Crossover (Wine GUI) and Steam emulated within to launch Win32 games that lack Linux ports.
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According to Phoronix it's the real deal. Totally native with no WINE. And Valve isn't just porting Steam they're also bringing the Source games to Linux as well.

Makes sense since a lot of the indi games they sell on Steam have Linux versions and if the recent spate of Kickstarter games is anything to go by there will be more on the way. And seeing that this is Valve we're talking about I bet we'll see this out in, what? 2 or 3 years?
 
Inbefore "He's only doing this because the Steam console needs an OS" :D
 
It'd be awesome if he made a Steam OS, like there's an XMBC OS (OpenELEC).
 
MavericK96 said:
Ehh...only Source games? Most of them are pretty old.
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Source is the engine that runs in all Valve games. Original HalfLife was ported *to* Source (which is used in HL2, Left4Dead, etc) so they called it HL:Source.

Whatever version of Source is being run for the game, it's still called "Source." Engine updates result in updates being released for all games. Which is why TF2 and L4D tend to get patched together on the same day.
 
While I no longer use Linux on any of my computers, I think it is great they are going to start supporting it.
 
techrat said:
Source is the engine that runs in all Valve games. Original HalfLife was ported *to* Source (which is used in HL2, Left4Dead, etc) so they called it HL:Source.

Whatever version of Source is being run for the game, it's still called "Source." Engine updates result in updates being released for all games. Which is why TF2 and L4D tend to get patched together on the same day.
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I know. My opinion still stands. :p
 
Azhar said:
I wonder if it's going to be a sort of combination of Crossover (Wine GUI) and Steam emulated within to launch Win32 games that lack Linux ports.
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Could be.

That being said, for games that have already been ported to OSX, the furhter port to Linux should be on the trivial side. All the tough work (rewriting to render on Open GL, for instance) has already been done.
 
Zarathustra[H];1038650757 said:
Could be.

That being said, for games that have already been ported to OSX, the furhter port to Linux should be on the trivial side. All the tough work (rewriting to render on Open GL, for instance) has already been done.
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No not really. Porting to Linux is a pain not so much because of OpenGL. Heck you find a number of engines out there have GL support in them. It is a pain because Linux has no standards and the graphic drivers suck ass. So for sound and the like you find a huge mess of competing standards and it is difficult to get one thing that'll work on all distros. For graphics the problem is that only the binary nVidia drivers really provide full GL support.

Firefox found this when they did hardware acceleration. They said they could make it work with the binary nVidia drivers, but nothing else, they were all too buggy.

Getting something with high end graphics n' sound to to run on A Linux system is doable. Getting it to run on most Linux systems is much harder.
 
MavericK96 said:
I know. My opinion still stands. :p
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Nah,

The source engine is a fully modular engine, as such it really doesn't matter how old it gets, it can still have all the latest features added in to it without being any worse off than brand new engines.

It has already gone through major updates that for any other engine would likely have resulted in a new version number, but since source is modular, they just keep it as source.

List of major updates
  • 2004: Initial Launch
  • 2005: High dynamic range rendering
  • 2007: "Soft" particles
  • 2007: Hardware facial animation
  • 2007: Multiprocessor support
  • 2007: Xbox 360 support
  • 2010: Mac OS X support
  • 2011: PlayStation 3 support

The latest stable version was build 4687 which I believe was released last September.

To call source an old engine, really is kind of a misnomer. It has been constantly updated and improved bit by bit over the years making it every bit as modern as other engines on the market.

It is - however - curious that Valve have not added DX11 support yet. Even that disaster of an engine that is the Unreal 3 engine has DX11 support at this point...

Of all the engines I have played around with, Source is still my favorite. The Unreal engines are easier to create content for, but they are not technically as strong and don't run as well on the same hardware in my experience.
 
Sycraft said:
No not really. Porting to Linux is a pain not so much because of OpenGL. Heck you find a number of engines out there have GL support in them. It is a pain because Linux has no standards and the graphic drivers suck ass. So for sound and the like you find a huge mess of competing standards and it is difficult to get one thing that'll work on all distros. For graphics the problem is that only the binary nVidia drivers really provide full GL support.

Firefox found this when they did hardware acceleration. They said they could make it work with the binary nVidia drivers, but nothing else, they were all too buggy.

Getting something with high end graphics n' sound to to run on A Linux system is doable. Getting it to run on most Linux systems is much harder.
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Uhm, if you just make it run on ALSA, sound will work on pretty much every linux distro released in the last 10 years. For those that lack alsa support, OSS, the older sound can be emulated through ALSA. This really should be no more difficult to code for than for DX.

Same for Open GL. I do see your point about poor support for non Nvidia GL drivers though. You just have to make sure that if you are building a Linux gaming rig, you select the components that will work the best with it.
 
Sycraft said:
No not really. Porting to Linux is a pain not so much because of OpenGL. Heck you find a number of engines out there have GL support in them. It is a pain because Linux has no standards and the graphic drivers suck ass. So for sound and the like you find a huge mess of competing standards and it is difficult to get one thing that'll work on all distros. For graphics the problem is that only the binary nVidia drivers really provide full GL support.

Firefox found this when they did hardware acceleration. They said they could make it work with the binary nVidia drivers, but nothing else, they were all too buggy.

Getting something with high end graphics n' sound to to run on A Linux system is doable. Getting it to run on most Linux systems is much harder.
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When Valve gets people interested in gaming on Linux, graphic card vendors will put more effort into their drivers. Right now nobody really cares.

Azhar said:
I wonder if it's going to be a sort of combination of Crossover (Wine GUI) and Steam emulated within to launch Win32 games that lack Linux ports.
Click to expand...
Valve wants to push developers so that their games are natively supported on Linux. Most likely they'll offer some support for those looking to use Wine. It really didn't work on Mac, so Wine is going to play an important roll one way or another.
 
Zarathustra[H];1038650827 said:
Nah,

The source engine is a fully modular engine, as such it really doesn't matter how old it gets, it can still have all the latest features added in to it without being any worse off than brand new engines.

It has already gone through major updates that for any other engine would likely have resulted in a new version number, but since source is modular, they just keep it as source.

List of major updates
  • 2004: Initial Launch
  • 2005: High dynamic range rendering
  • 2007: "Soft" particles
  • 2007: Hardware facial animation
  • 2007: Multiprocessor support
  • 2007: Xbox 360 support
  • 2010: Mac OS X support
  • 2011: PlayStation 3 support

The latest stable version was build 4687 which I believe was released last September.

To call source an old engine, really is kind of a misnomer. It has been constantly updated and improved bit by bit over the years making it every bit as modern as other engines on the market.

It is - however - curious that Valve have not added DX11 support yet. Even that disaster of an engine that is the Unreal 3 engine has DX11 support at this point...

Of all the engines I have played around with, Source is still my favorite. The Unreal engines are easier to create content for, but they are not technically as strong and don't run as well on the same hardware in my experience.
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Pretty sure what he is saying that most source gamesare old now.
Games like Counter Strike, Half life...not counting portal 2. The engine itself isn't old, just the games that will be "ported" to the Linux.
 
itomwisp said:
Pretty sure what he is saying that most source games are old now.
Games like Counter Strike, Half life...not counting portal 2. The engine itself isn't old, just the games that will be "ported" to the Linux.
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That's exactly what I meant and why I said "Source games". ;)
 
i for one am happy about this great news, the only reason i dual boot win7x64 with arch linux is because of games, and 90% of them are through steam, i know that most of my steam games are not source powered games, but at the same time this could (and hope) to be a stepping stone to bring more mainstream gaming to linux.
 
itomwisp said:
Pretty sure what he is saying that most source gamesare old now.
Games like Counter Strike, Half life...not counting portal 2. The engine itself isn't old, just the games that will be "ported" to the Linux.
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That I will agree with.

There hasn't been a major release using the Source engine for a while. I find this odd. There are - however - some indies and mods using it though that should be interesting in the near future. That, and CS:GO is reportedly due out this year.

Black Mesa (a source engine remake of HL1 as a free mod) is - if rumors are to be believed - nearing completion.

Dear Esther seemed interesting too.
 
techrat said:
Source is the engine that runs in all Valve games. Original HalfLife was ported *to* Source (which is used in HL2, Left4Dead, etc) so they called it HL:Source.

Whatever version of Source is being run for the game, it's still called "Source." Engine updates result in updates being released for all games. Which is why TF2 and L4D tend to get patched together on the same day.
Click to expand...

This is not true, any game can fall behind on source there is nothing holding them together and any version of source can break compatibility with other games. It took well over 2 years for some of the "source" engine games made by valve to be updated to orange box. I am not sure all of them ever were updated. Ideally valve would want to update all games but in reality it does not happen or might as well not happen (see HL2DM where the lax nature of their update to OB killed the game) I am think at least 2 source games are still sitting on the 2006 version. Those who mod for source are given the option to work with anyone of a number of SDKs that go back to the original "2006" source engine and inlclude source 2007 and 2009. There are at least 2 games stuck on both of the older versions as far as I know.
 
My belief is that Valve wants to use Linux for their Steam console. Yea I know you've heard this before. Though HL3 maybe involved in this as well. Valve could be delaying HL3 on purpose so they can release this game along with the new Steam console. As we all know, if you want a game console to be successful then you should release a great game with it. Like Sonic on Genesis or Mario on Nintendo consoles.

HL3 won't be exclusive to the Steam console, but I won't be surprised if it won't show up on Xbox or Playstation consoles. It would stay exclusive, at least for a while.

Valve could easily make HL3 now and roll in the cash, but there's a reason why they haven't released the game yet. I doubt because they're busy polishing it. Valve doesn't like Windows 8, and they don't like losing 30% of their profits to Microsoft and Sony.

The real question is, will other developers want to join in? I actually would have expected Blizzard to make a Linux version of World of Warcraft by now. They even help those trying to play WoW under Wine. The game runs natively on Direct 3D, but does have OpenGL support for this very reason. I doubt EA is interested in Linux, and probably won't be for a long time.
 
Now that apple has exploded in popularity linux share has imploded. IMO most companies now days would rather just wait and see. So I agree that a valve console will run on linux that is the only way I can imagine anyone caring about linux at this point when linux is actually far worse off than it was previously.
 
I dont know "Phoronix" much, i am however interested in Linux stuff. Three of my four computers run linux (two htpc on xbmcbuntu, one laptop on openSuse).
Im sad to say that this article is pretty bad. Two pages that could be sumarized as "Steam and sources are comming natively to Linux. Valve and Gabe Newell seem pretty serious about it". Every paragraph repeats approximately the same thing.
I'll give em a chance and read other articles they wrote before saying that Phoronix sucks, but they didn't impress me with this one.
 
rudy said:
Now that apple has exploded in popularity linux share has imploded. IMO most companies now days would rather just wait and see. So I agree that a valve console will run on linux that is the only way I can imagine anyone caring about linux at this point when linux is actually far worse off than it was previously.
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There's a lot wrong with what you said.

First, what does Apple have to do with Linux? You think that someone who uses Linux is going to switch to Mac of all things? If your intelligent enough to use Linux then you probably wouldn't just switch to Linux. Not to forget that you can install Linux on Mac as well.

Most companies are going to wait and see, but even they are worried about Microsoft and Sonys new consoles. Like EA's Origin service. EA didn't create this service just to piss off Valve.

Linux is actually doing a lot better then in the past. Don't believe me then download it and give it a try. Especially with Ubuntu and Mint which make the process a lot easier for most people. The UI is more user friendly then ever before, and much easier to get software though the software center. Wine has advanced a lot more recently and the Linux kernel is always seeing massive changes with every release. For example Brain Fuck Scheduler. That is not a joke, that's something you can patch into the Linux kernel.
 
Zarathustra[H];1038650827 said:
Nah,

The source engine is a fully modular engine, as such it really doesn't matter how old it gets, it can still have all the latest features added in to it without being any worse off than brand new engines.

It has already gone through major updates that for any other engine would likely have resulted in a new version number, but since source is modular, they just keep it as source.

List of major updates
  • 2004: Initial Launch
  • 2005: High dynamic range rendering
  • 2007: "Soft" particles
  • 2007: Hardware facial animation
  • 2007: Multiprocessor support
  • 2007: Xbox 360 support
  • 2010: Mac OS X support
  • 2011: PlayStation 3 support

The latest stable version was build 4687 which I believe was released last September.

To call source an old engine, really is kind of a misnomer. It has been constantly updated and improved bit by bit over the years making it every bit as modern as other engines on the market.

It is - however - curious that Valve have not added DX11 support yet. Even that disaster of an engine that is the Unreal 3 engine has DX11 support at this point...

Of all the engines I have played around with, Source is still my favorite. The Unreal engines are easier to create content for, but they are not technically as strong and don't run as well on the same hardware in my experience.
Click to expand...

Lipstick on a pig.
 
Microsoft has constricted PC gaming to prevent splintering too far from its console. You can't really exploit new hardware by more horsepower to the existing engines. You need new software to go with the new hardware and DirectX advancement slowed to a crawl with the first xbox.

Hope microsoft either gets scared and sets PC gaming free or loses gaming. If it allows the latter it probably damages its future.
 
Ashbringer said:
There's a lot wrong with what you said.

First, what does Apple have to do with Linux? You think that someone who uses Linux is going to switch to Mac of all things? If your intelligent enough to use Linux then you probably wouldn't just switch to Linux. Not to forget that you can install Linux on Mac as well.

Most companies are going to wait and see, but even they are worried about Microsoft and Sonys new consoles. Like EA's Origin service. EA didn't create this service just to piss off Valve.

Linux is actually doing a lot better then in the past. Don't believe me then download it and give it a try. Especially with Ubuntu and Mint which make the process a lot easier for most people. The UI is more user friendly then ever before, and much easier to get software though the software center. Wine has advanced a lot more recently and the Linux kernel is always seeing massive changes with every release. For example Brain Fuck Scheduler. That is not a joke, that's something you can patch into the Linux kernel.
Click to expand...

Yes normal people who used to use linux have switched to macs in droves. In my work alone every single linux machine and user which is over 100 has slowly converted to macs over the last 5 years. (each person / small group makes their own purchasing decision this is not some CEOs mandate)

Linux was always the alternative OS you know full of people who hated MS and various other issues. Now not everyone was like that but those people who were like that could go with linux and add to its user base. Alot of those personalities have switched to macs. Not everyone but so many it has just made linux all that much less interesting as an OS. Apples popularity has meant increased support in so many ways these people wont go back for a long time if ever. Apple allows them to run basic functionality MS office without any wine or hacking around, and it allows them to also get most of the linux programs they need running.

This has nothing to do with usability, yes linux is better than it was before I personally run ubuntu in a VM and am happy they have progressed. I have nothing against it just telling it strait with no bias apple is back on top as the alternative to MS and that has hurt linux market share more than anyone else. Even if apple crashes it will be google who replaces them and trust me they will be diverging from their linux roots. All the types of people who used to use linux just have so many choices in google and apple they no longer care to deal with linux. This trend will continue, the only reason to deal with linux now if you are a company is to develop your own OS for some reason. (I am not talking about the server space where linux is still strong).
 
I strongly prefer Linux and have been looking to Steam on Linux ever since Phoronix, the site listed here (which, is a linux "performance computing/gaming" site that is usually pretty good, constructed their own benchmark pack, but can get carried away with rumor) found Linux API code in the Steam/Source branch a year or two back.

Gaming on Linux is growing; look to the excellent Steam-alternative client Desura (they run IndieRoyale bundles and ModDB as well) and see that nearly every release has a "will it have Linux support soon" if it doesn't already. There are a large number of Linux preferring users who, like myself keep a Windows partition for gaming when the Linux solutions aren't there yet. We'd like to have the same support on Linux as Windows, but get counted as "Windows users" just because we dual-boot. Everything from WINE/Crossover and other applications that allow Windows/Mac apps to be run on Linux come to being a pretty heroic attempt; but we'd like to not have to tweak around to ensure everything works right and that we have all the "shiny" turned on. Native linux binaries and games made with open technologies in mind (ie OpenGL, OpenCL etc...), work with relative ease.

Problems only arise when someone either 1) exclusively ensures their app runs proprietary shit. If you HAVE to use DirectX and PhysX it is going to be a more difficult setup and you may have to fall back to the DX9 or 10, if all the 11 features can't be implemented right etc... or 2) expects that graphics/sound etc... drivers and APIs work a single way and usually not an "open" way. For instance, Nvidia's Linux binary GPU drivers overwrite a certain amount of XWin to "get their way" so to speak. If people write their app specifically to make sure that Nvidia's hack works (ie VDPAU only implementation) then everyone with cards/drivers that "follow the rules" for instance are going to have an issue. However, when people write generally for those that "follow the rules" (ie AMD Catalyst, AMD open source community made, NV open source community made) everything usually works out. The same is true for sound - just let everyone know what you tested things to work under and which featuresets are necessary. For instance, ALSA as others have said is rock-solid and has great features, but if you built your Linux version exclusively on Ubuntu with PulseAudio then others need to know that. Most "linux problems" are actually "proprietary bullshit problems via 3rd parties" and the best way to fix that is exactly what is happening - developers being open about what their applications need, and users pestering vendors of closed drivers and other crap to "act right".

Overall Steam on Linux is a fantastic idea and if there's going to be a "Valve console" I hope it runs on Linux and is easy to mod/play with/hack. Yes, there are going to be some "growing pains" but for a system that is MUCH easier to work with, with a MUCH lower financial barrier of entry than Mac, I believe it is all worthwhile. Linux Gaming has been in a Catch 22 "Well, since there aren't lots of gamers using Linux, we don't see any reason to make games for Linux, which in turn keeps gamers from choosing Linux for their gaming etc...". However, indie studios have shown that there is a large contingent of Linux users who are gaming (ie HumbleBundle and IndieRoyale show that each time Linux users are willing to offer a higher average donation than Windows or Mac and that their numbers are often only secondary to Windows but still significant) . Games that launch or later add a Linux client show large uptake in sales. We want our hardware and software to work on Linux and we're willing to pay for hardware/software that is respectful of the community and even willing to roll up our sleeves and do some of the work ourselves (ie packaging, bug fixes etc...) if given a chance. Courting Linux gamers has done well by many an indie studio and even many larger operations (ie Heroes of Newerth anyone? and Valve is just the company to really make an excellent partnership with, being paid back with interest for their attention to Linux.
 
I just really hope that Valve's Steam console is (1) Real (2) As easy to use as regular consoles, and (3) Is a smashing success.

The current console space *sucks so badly*, and a console running commodity PC hardware and open standards would rock so much.....
 
Didn't Valve confirm that all this hardware stuff they're doing is not a console? Instead it was in regards to wearable computing/hardware.

As for Steam on linux I don't really care, as long as it is intergrated as nice as the Mac side of things and doesn't detract from the Windows side there will be no problems and can only be a good thing for steam as a whole.
 
Although this sounds great the issue here would be that if Valve is doing this for their own console, which would presumably be a Linux-based distro underneath some customized Valve-y goodness, it doesn't necessarily mean that anything DX-based would find its way to Linux. The issue at hand here isn't the platform necessarily, but rather the API that's being used. WINE isn't the answer to porting over DX-based games but rather a half-assed attempt at doing so without really addressing the issue of openGL standardization.

I'm hoping Valve starts speaking with developers about the issue of DX propriety. Here's to hoping that Linux-based hardware will do just that ;)
 
Zarathustra[H];1038651018 said:
Black Mesa (a source engine remake of HL1 as a free mod) is - if rumors are to be believed - nearing completion.
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lolwutpear.jpg


Seriously, thanks for the laugh :D

If you presented me with two articles entitled "Steam coming to Linux" and "Black Mesa Source Released," I would believe the Linux port over the mod release any day of the week.
 
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