Police: Internet Providers Must Keep User Logs

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I supposed we shouldn't be too surprised by this news. Seriously, we are talking about law enforcement here, of course they are going to want ISPs to store user logs.

Law enforcement representatives are planning to endorse a proposed federal law that would require Internet service providers to store logs about their customers for 18 months, CNET has learned. The National Sheriffs' Association will say it "strongly supports" mandatory data retention during Tuesday's U.S. House of Representatives hearing on the topic.
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And after x number of violations pass it all on to the government.
 
love how lawmakers , who have no clue about tech make all these demands/laws

keep all the logs you want, you cant prove who is sitting at the pc regardless at the time of any sort of activity so it doesn't matter
 
lawmakers just want to know where all the good/free pr0n sites are located.
 
thanks to Anonymous and lulzsec this will be passed 100% surely, thanks guys! we need the patriotic help :rolleyes:
 
I wonder how many lawmakers will be caught up in some scandal from something like this.:p
 
I'm sure ISP's will get a tax reduction to offset the extra costs of hardware and personnel time, right?... Right?... hey where are you guys in suits going?
 
Good_Luck_I%27m_Behind_7_Proxies.jpg
 
Putz said:
love how lawmakers , who have no clue about tech make all these demands/laws

keep all the logs you want, you cant prove who is sitting at the pc regardless at the time of any sort of activity so it doesn't matter
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Exactly, a judge in the USA has already ruled that an IP address is not a person. But of course that has not stopped them from jailing innocent people anyway.
 
I think all US companies should be integrated into law enforcement. You don't have anything to hide if you didn't do anything wrong, right?

Oops, I had sarcasm for breakfast.
 
umm isp's have been doing this for a long time everything that passes through their pipe is logged period if you think it was not and this changed changed things please head desk as quickly as possible so i have zero clue as to why this is even a story.
 
I think the "police" should then be resposible for providing the hardware, software, and extra workers in order to make this happen.

On top of that, they cannot lobby to raise taxes or fines. They have to make it fit into their current budget.

they want us to live in a "police state", then they have to pay for it out of theirr own pockets.
 
Wouldn't a VPN be a way to get away with a lot of stuff whether or not your ISP keeps logs?
 
AliceCooper said:
Wouldn't a VPN be a way to get away with a lot of stuff whether or not your ISP keeps logs?
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^ This.

As long as the VPN service provider doesn't keep traffic logs, anonymity shouldn't be an issue. I believe your ISP can contact your provider for any type of suspicion, but without empirical proof of anything, they can't do jack shit.
 
maxius said:
no it still passes through their pipe and its logged by the isp
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VPNs are encrypted, the ISP would see traffic but have no idea what is in the traffic or where it is going. They would only know traffic is going to and from the VPN provider. If that VPN provider. You could even sign up for your own hosting server and admin your own VPN. Use a prepaid credit card and switch providers once a month. The g men wouldn't have a chance of keeping up because of their bureaucracy and legal concerns.
 
This isn't a chip off of privacy, this is an entire limb.
 
niconx said:
VPNs are encrypted, the ISP would see traffic but have no idea what is in the traffic or where it is going. They would only know traffic is going to and from the VPN provider. If that VPN provider. You could even sign up for your own hosting server and admin your own VPN. Use a prepaid credit card and switch providers once a month. The g men wouldn't have a chance of keeping up because of their bureaucracy and legal concerns.
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Couldn't you setup your own VPN?
 
There's a guy at the hearing right now that is doing a pretty good job at articulating all that is wrong with this bill.

Unfortunately nothing seems to be getting through to the lawmakers.
 
Politicians should worry about the budget, economy, and the military, instead of how to spy on it's citizens.
 
niconx said:
VPNs are encrypted, the ISP would see traffic but have no idea what is in the traffic or where it is going. They would only know traffic is going to and from the VPN provider. If that VPN provider. You could even sign up for your own hosting server and admin your own VPN. Use a prepaid credit card and switch providers once a month. The g men wouldn't have a chance of keeping up because of their bureaucracy and legal concerns.
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Nope. But with a properly setup logging system and cooperative ISP's, you can follow the packets from one isp to the next. You can narrow it down by only tracing packets at a specific time (i.e. Analysis shows that the company was hacked at around 2:15am two days ago at this IP and port number). If a packet enters a VPN server, branch out the trace to outgoing packets within the next two seconds. Once you hit a private router, check its traffic history. That's still a lot of tracing, but it's not like it's going to be done by hand. Once you've narrowed it down to a few hundred routers, you can start filtering.

Filtering is when you check a packet for specific markers and flag them. It doesn't work when the packet is encrypted but that doesn't matter when the ISP is just logging network traffic. The packet header can't be encrypted, otherwise the ISP wouldn't know what to do with it and just discard it as corrupted. Even the data header itself has indicators on what type of encryption it's using. Even when it's run through a VPN server, it just means you need to include incoming connections within the next few seconds and branch out the trace to include those. What's more is that it's working from logs so the trace doesn't even have to be done in real time.

Heck, the ISP simply detecting an intermittent VPN connection from starbucks would be enough to raise a flag, especially if another ISP reported one of their clients was hacked from a VPN server at the time. VPN isn't that common, if everyone was that paranoid, viruses would be extinct.

Even if they managed to secure the ISP's, that's still a lot of foot work for the street officers, but considering that a hack could be done from anywhere in the world. Simply managing to narrow it down to within half a city is a good start.
 
The feds definitely don't get it.

At this rate it'll be the People's Republic of America. Great firewall heeeere we come!

...I hope I'm wrong...
 
So a VPN would only slow the process of finding the person, or people who are partaking in malicious activities and not fully conceal what was going on? From what I understand they wouldn't know what was in the packet, but because they could narrow it down to where that packet is going and where it came from would be enough to tell whether or not that person is doing something they shouldn't?
 
That's why I use a VPN that doesn't store any data on what I download/upload or the websites I visit, has unlimited bandwidth, and has me within 80-100% of my internet speed at all times. Everyone should just move to VPN's and get it over with.
 
This will just make more people switch to encryption, they may be able to tell where the packets coming from, but won't be able to tell what data is coming and going.

Child porn seems to be treated more serious than murder.
 
dyzophoria said:
thanks to Anonymous and lulzsec this will be passed 100% surely, thanks guys! we need the patriotic help :rolleyes:
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No, your complacency and inaction in defense of your civil liberties made this possible. Enjoy your Patriot Act.
 
King of Heroes said:
Protecting Children from Internet Pornographers Act of 2011

"WON'T ANYONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN?!!"

Its scary how effective that is.
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And if you oppose the bill, someone says "WELL MAYBE WE SHOULD BE MONITORING YOU BECAUSE YOU WANT CHILDREN TO BE MOLESTED SO YOU CAN LOOK AT PICTURES OF IT".

It's sad that they think that respecting individual freedoms makes you a child molester.
 
fattypants said:
And if you oppose the bill, someone says "WELL MAYBE WE SHOULD BE MONITORING YOU BECAUSE YOU WANT CHILDREN TO BE MOLESTED SO YOU CAN LOOK AT PICTURES OF IT".

It's sad that they think that respecting individual freedoms makes you a child molester.
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Its because they are narrow minded and don't see the broad spectrum of the topic.
 
Sly said:
Nope. But with a properly setup logging system and cooperative ISP's, you can follow the packets from one isp to the next. You can narrow it down by only tracing packets at a specific time (i.e. Analysis shows that the company was hacked at around 2:15am two days ago at this IP and port number). If a packet enters a VPN server, branch out the trace to outgoing packets within the next two seconds. Once you hit a private router, check its traffic history. That's still a lot of tracing, but it's not like it's going to be done by hand. Once you've narrowed it down to a few hundred routers, you can start filtering.

Filtering is when you check a packet for specific markers and flag them. It doesn't work when the packet is encrypted but that doesn't matter when the ISP is just logging network traffic. The packet header can't be encrypted, otherwise the ISP wouldn't know what to do with it and just discard it as corrupted. Even the data header itself has indicators on what type of encryption it's using. Even when it's run through a VPN server, it just means you need to include incoming connections within the next few seconds and branch out the trace to include those. What's more is that it's working from logs so the trace doesn't even have to be done in real time.

Heck, the ISP simply detecting an intermittent VPN connection from starbucks would be enough to raise a flag, especially if another ISP reported one of their clients was hacked from a VPN server at the time. VPN isn't that common, if everyone was that paranoid, viruses would be extinct.

Even if they managed to secure the ISP's, that's still a lot of foot work for the street officers, but considering that a hack could be done from anywhere in the world. Simply managing to narrow it down to within half a city is a good start.
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Interesting point, that could definitely work. So you could use a double VPN
 
In a company with 1500 employees our logs are 5-6 gigs A DAY. Imagine Cox with 1.5million subscribers in the Phoenix metro area. How many servers will be required to log and store all that data for 18 months?
If it does become law, I'm just going to set up one PC on it's own VLAN to constantly reload the most ad-laden page I can find just to generate tons of traffic. :p
 
AliceCooper said:
Couldn't IP spoofing fix this?
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That only works on DDoS since you're not expecting a reply. The way the internet works is that you're not actually reaching out and grabbing anything. You are sending a command to the server, and then waiting for the server to reply. If you spoof your IP, you won't even be able to know if your password was accepted.

It's like trying to use a computer with the monitor unplugged. You can type in all the commands you want but won't know what you're actually doing. Even if you use a malware to do the hacking for you, it's still the same thing, that 'stolen' data still has to go somewhere.

niconx said:
Interesting point, that could definitely work. So you could use a double VPN
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One thing i can think of is to have a malware install a program on the target server and torrent the entire harddrive to piratebay. Have fun tracing that. :D
 
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