Microsoft Internal Documents - Permanent Work From Home

socK said:
This is interesting, and I definitely see the lines blurring more.

It cuts both ways. I've had quiet days where I was caught up, no meetings, and I went out for a run. Other days, I've hammered away on shit far later than I ever would have because there was never that disconnect moment where I left the office.
Click to expand...

Maybe another method of work norm can come from this. More objective/task based instead of 8hours scheduled. I know it wouldn't work in all areas but there are ones that would. When I was WFH I enjoyed the blurred lines. Meant I didn't have to need an alarm in the morning, but in the evenings I wasn't off the hook either if there was a rush task that needed done. I did enjoy working in my home workshop more than the one at work though. less people walking around and more focused on work without the distractions.
 
Oncen companies realize that work from home "works" they will start hiring further and further away. Remember when technical support centers were based in your home country?
If you can work from home, so can someone else.
I dont have an opinion on wfh one way or the other. But its not going to be long before we will see the same people crying "they took our jobs!"
 
The company I work for is working on the "2024 Plan" for when the building lease is up and they plan on moving our datacenter (about 10 racks) into another datacenter/virtualizing so we can work remotely or from a nicer office building or both.

I have been WFH since March and it's been fantastic. Nothing like going away from home for 2 weeks but still be able to work without anyone knowing anything about it. Currently they are still waiting till we hit "phase 3" but that could be early to mid next year we go back in.
 
Wat said:
Oncen companies realize that work from home "works" they will start hiring further and further away. Remember when technical support centers were based in your home country?
If you can work from home, so can someone else.
I dont have an opinion on what one way or the other. But its not going to be long before we will see the same people crying "they took our jobs!"
Click to expand...
They already do that. lol
 
I've WFH for the last 8 years. It's not for everybody as there's too many distractions. I've had many co-workers go back to the office because of this.
 
I've been working from home almost exclusively since start of 2020 , I can say that while I put in less actual work hours , I get everything done on time and more.
I actually like being able to spread the work hours across any time of the day I want. also this flexibility means I basically don't need to use any vacation or sick days unless I really want to be off-line.
Its even possible to work from abroad.
 
Our HR lady was out for 6 months cause of surgery and started working from home. The purchasing manager that works in the same space started complaining why she can't work from home. Now they both split time wfh and office. I would assume the HR person should be available at all times on site for any and all HR issues. It is stupid.
 
One of the issues with "work from home" is that once it's fully established that you never have to come into the office and that all you need is an internet connection, then they might as well just replace you with someone from Pakistan who will be happy to work for 1/4th of your salary. People who just started working from home this year are still coasting from the inertia of their former job. Once the dust settles, there probably won't be any reason to keep you around. The pool of potential workers for your company just expanded to 7 billion and you're probably not on the top of the list anymore.

For those who do work from home, far too many don't take it seriously. I see people log into conference calls and then ignore the call while they watch TV or play on their phone. People spend 5 minutes writing an email, spend the rest of the hour messing around, yet still expect to be paid for that hour.

For those who do take it seriously, there is massive potential for unrealistic expectations. Your job won't simply end at 5pm. Got a deadline? Then prepare to work all night long. If you don't, your co-worker might, and then they get the promotion. For many jobs, the expectation will become that you slip out of your bed and stumble over to your computer, work 18 hours, and then crawl back into bed to get ready for the next day. If you don't want to do that, too bad, because the guy from the 3rd world country that they will hire to replace you is happy do it for 25% of your paycheck.
 
I've been doing it for 3 years, and it's go into our lab as needed. Our company isn't going to start having people back until mayish, and will probably switch to a lot more WFH exclusively besides meetings and things I'd imagine for a lot of the sales teams and engineering. Kind of a pain these days to go in as I have to request permission from our VP to go in to our Tech Campus , but I'm like the only one who can do my stuff so our onsite services can't deal with it, so I pretty much go in a lot.

I get why people worry about the work creep, I fairly regularly work late at night and sometimes weekends and do stuff while on vacation. Mainly because I love what I do, so when I get stuck on a problem it annoys the hell out of me and I have to figure it out (doesn't have to be work) , but it doesn't really matter much since I'm single and live alone lol.
 
sunruh said:
the new age of anti-social society
Click to expand...

I got promoted to a sys admin before this hit. I was in the office remoting into servers and stuff and had a lot less interaction with people. After COVID and working from home, it was almost no interaction. I took a job as a bartender when things started back up. I love it. I'm an introvert, but I am a people person. I love talking to people, having fun, laughing, having a good time all around. That really helped out. I am not the best at social stuff, but I really enjoy it. And it really helped out a lot. Still doing it. At times, it's overwhelming and a pain (working all the time), but it's fun. Working IT from home makes it easier for both jobs.

I would love to work remote as much as possible. I'd even support a "workation" where you could travel anywhere, work during the day from there, and have fun the rest of the time. Even if it's working remote for a month or so. I'd go to France and work 5pm-1am local time (9-5 Pacific). Have time to sleep and have the day to have fun.

It can still be very social if done right. But, I can see a lot of people becoming hermits. I just couldn't do it. I have to have human interaction.
 
GotNoRice said:
One of the issues with "work from home" is that once it's fully established that you never have to come into the office and that all you need is an internet connection, then they might as well just replace you with someone from Pakistan who will be happy to work for 1/4th of your salary.
Click to expand...

Let me just assure you right now, if anyone can do your job for 1/4 or even 1/2 of the pay , they will , and there is no getting around it, cost of globalization.
 
T_A said:
Let me just assure you right now, if anyone can do your job for 1/4 or even 1/2 of the pay , they will , and there is no getting around it, cost of globalization.
Click to expand...

That's just the thing. This whole "pandemic" is re-defining exactly what can or can't be done from home. Things that no one would have ever considered doing from home even one year ago are now being done from home. A lot of people who "love working from home" don't realize yet that they are about to be replaced.
 
Wat said:
Oncen companies realize that work from home "works" they will start hiring further and further away. Remember when technical support centers were based in your home country?
If you can work from home, so can someone else.
I dont have an opinion on wfh one way or the other. But its not going to be long before we will see the same people crying "they took our jobs!"
Click to expand...
So develop a skillset or expertise they can't outsource.
 
I think WFH is a very logical step for a lot of tech companies. If your job is being on a computer the whole day in your office office I see a lot of benefices from doing it from your home. I've been working as semi-presential for a few months and it's great, I only have to go a few days a week to the office for a few hours and do everything else at home.
 
Last edited:
neural0 said:
/snip
Click to expand...
My industry cannot work from home as a matter of reality but there is a ton of talk about bubbling shifts and AOR permanently. Personally I don't see how its possible in the long run. There is to much interconnection of skills.
Though someone made the point during a meeting that we don't really need on site admin staff 5 days a week so it wouldn't surprise me to see us or others go the same route as Microsoft.
 
It's been an interesting time. I never considered WFH as an appealing option, but now due to COVID I only come into work 2-3 days a week for very specific meetings for 1-2 hours that must be done on site due to security reasons.

I enjoy WFH and have been far more productive than I anticipated. However, I also really enjoy work in office and miss the office life and colleagues. I hate the split time and driving just for a 1 hour meeting ever couple of days is annoying.

So I landed a new job that is 100% remote and turned in my notice last week, time for a change!
 
My company initally sent us home at the begining of March. Intially it was stated the end of April would be the return to the office. Then it was June, then it was September, then it was the first of the year. Just today they told us it'd now be April of next year.

I can't stand working from home. I did it for the first few months but have said screw it. I could not longer easily keep my work life and home life away from each other. I wasn't getting the social interaction. I wasn't getting as much exercise (the walk from my bed to my desk, from my desk to my bathroom, to desk, to bed isn't far). But my kids going out to work drove me back to the office. I love it. I'm back there full time now, "normal" routine. And there are several people with more and more coming in every week. Some once or twice a week, a few starting to come in full time with more talking of coming in. Too many people enjoyed it at first but are over it now.

I fully expect our office to be back to at least quarter staffed before the end of the year with a large influx coming back in (all voluntarily) after the holidays.
 
I’ve worked from home for years, with a couple of breaks where I worked for companies where I had to go into the office most of the time. I hope to never have to go into an office again - it is a complete and total waste of time and resources.
 
T_A said:
Let me just assure you right now, if anyone can do your job for 1/4 or even 1/2 of the pay , they will , and there is no getting around it, cost of globalization.
Click to expand...
If you can find work that's covered under ITAR then your position will never be outsourced.
 
Rizen said:
Institutional knowledge is hard to outsource.
Click to expand...
Most places don't care about Institutional knowledge. Do you have the skills to use Product A to do Job Function B? Yup....good!! Can you do it cheaper than what we currently pay our employees?! Even better!
 
I immediately started working from home when the first lockdown came in march. Outside the few field assignments I've been working from home ever since. Most of my colleagues went back to the office at the end of the summer, and are still there now regardless of the situation with the virus being more dire here than it ever was during lockdown.

It's a whole new experience, I'm much happier, can get more work done, more efficiently, and I Don't just slump in front of the computer when I get home after work around 5 pm. Instead of getting up at 5:45, I can get up at 7:45. And that two extra hours means I Have 10 times more energy during the day. I'm a terrible sleeper, always were. It takes me 60-90 minutes to fall asleep on a good day. Thanks to the extra energy I've been working out regularly since work from home started, never had the energy to do it properly and regularly before.

And my bosses also like it, because instead of being available strictly from 7-3, I'm now available to do some extra work at later if necessary. Plus I get work done much quicker as I don't loose focus by 10am, and don't do one hour lunch breaks like we did in the office, with an additional one hour coma period after when efficiency is bellow 10%. In home office I can give 90% from 9-4, in the actual office I could give 90+% for one hour a day max, the rest of the day was fluctuating between 0-50%. And not because I'm lazy, but because of distractions.

Oh, and let's not forget the money I saved on not having to do the 130km commute every day.
 
  • Like
Reactions: zrikz
like this
I've been unemployed for a few years now and did 30+ years in IT... but nearly all of it on the hardware support/network admin/IT Manager side of things. You can't really WFH that, unfortunately :/
 
The only secure (no pun intended) WFH jobs I’ve seen require a security clearance. I can’t think of any WFH job that couldn’t be outsourced or done for a salary less than the average American expects.

I initially wanted to become Ubiquity certified and get my LV license to install networking in new housing developments. My idea was to cost out the install like anyone else but leave the door open for anyone to come back to me to install their hardware and possibly subscribe to an annual subscription for maintenance. Troubleshooting that equipment remotely is incredibly easy and I bet you could gain enough people to make it worth the time. If anything couldn’t be done remotely they are still in driving distance.
 
carlbme said:
Most places don't care about Institutional knowledge. Do you have the skills to use Product A to do Job Function B? Yup....good!! Can you do it cheaper than what we currently pay our employees?! Even better!
Click to expand...
It depends on where you are and what you do. I admit I was being a bit flippant about the situation, but I work for a very large software company and they absolutely do care about job performance and institutional knowledge. I've been there for 10 years and it's not really possible to replace me because I know everyone and I know how to get things done across the entire LOB that I work in. You can't outsource my role. Now clearly, that's not possible for all roles and I recognize that, especially if you work for a small employer. Honestly though I don't think the real risk right now is further outsourcing, it's the encroachment of AI into replacing workers that have in the past been protected in "high skill" roles. They've already shown that AI is consistently more accurate at detecting cancer when reviewing radiograph data than doctors, for example.
 
sfsuphysics said:
A number of them around here are moving to permanent work at home but they say they arent going to pay the SF bay area inflated salaries. So people are definitely moving to cheaper parts of the country but they dont get the bigger salaries
Click to expand...

I think it is less of a "we refuse to bay SF bay area wages" and more of an opening up of the candidate base to anyone anywhere in the world, provided they can speak the language and have the required skills.

The main reason SF Bay area wages are high is because of supply and demand. There is a high concentration of tech firms who all need talent, and a smaller pool of that talent in large part due tot he cost of living. If you are hiring for full time remote anywhere, your supply just went up, so the supply/demand curve looks very different, and it is only reasonable to expect wages to be lower.

This will put a pinch on people living in the Bay area (at least those unwilling to move) short term, but long term it could have a great balancing effect. With these jobs being able to be filled anywhere, there will be less of a supply shortage of housing in the area, eventually (hopefully) lowering the cost of living a bit.

The real losers long term here are those invested in SF Bay area real estate, IMHO.

Cities are always going to have a higher cost of living than elsewhere due to limited space for real estate, and high demand as lots of people really like city life, but removing the need to be in the city for your job can help reduce that a little bit, and hopefully make it just a bit less lopsided.
 
Last edited:
cdabc123 said:
Why wouldnt those people your outsourcing to not choose to learn the same skills if there is a opertunity to utilize them?
Click to expand...

20 years ago, I assumed Indian people working in call centers would start training to speak English with an American accent, since it's such a pain point. Hasn't happened yet. So there's one obvious angle: a customer base that likes talking to people they can understand easily.

In case anyone starts throwing around accusations, I work with several Indian devs at my company, who are all based in India and work for us as contractors, and have no issues with them. One of them even came to the US last year for training, most of which I did.
 
1_rick said:
20 years ago, I assumed Indian people working in call centers would start training to speak English with an American accent, since it's such a pain point. Hasn't happened yet. So there's one obvious angle: a customer base that likes talking to people they can understand easily.

In case anyone starts throwing around accusations, I work with several Indian devs at my company, who are all based in India and work for us as contractors, and have no issues with them. One of them even came to the US last year for training, most of which I did.
Click to expand...
learning a accent is abit diferant I was more refering to intellectual skill sets used in many positions. Honestly, as long as you speak the same language there shouldn't be much of a problem regarding communication
 
next-Jin said:
The only secure (no pun intended) WFH jobs I’ve seen require a security clearance. I can’t think of any WFH job that couldn’t be outsourced or done for a salary less than the average American expects.

I initially wanted to become Ubiquity certified and get my LV license to install networking in new housing developments. My idea was to cost out the install like anyone else but leave the door open for anyone to come back to me to install their hardware and possibly subscribe to an annual subscription for maintenance. Troubleshooting that equipment remotely is incredibly easy and I bet you could gain enough people to make it worth the time. If anything couldn’t be done remotely they are still in driving distance.
Click to expand...
I work remotely and don't have a security clearance, but my job can't be easily outsourced to a foreign country.
 
cdabc123 said:
learning a accent is abit diferant I was more refering to intellectual skill sets used in many positions. Honestly, as long as you speak the same language there shouldn't be much of a problem regarding communication
Click to expand...

Learning to speak a different way is a skill.
 
IndyColtsFan said:
I work remotely and don't have a security clearance, but my job can't be easily outsourced to a foreign country.
Click to expand...

My post wasn’t to imply it’s not possible, just what I’ve seen. What industry are you in?
 
next-Jin said:
My post wasn’t to imply it’s not possible, just what I’ve seen. What industry are you in?
Click to expand...

if he/she is saying security clearance, it’s likely federal government work, contractor or whatever, and foreign nationals cannot get US government security clearance.
 
We have decided for now to keep as much WFH as possible. I can say that without the proper processes in place and the type of work that work from home can and will bread some laziness. I had that issue with my department. While on the clock had one person decide they needed to go clean their gutters, then was doing other household task. All while not completing work task / orders that were coming in. Had another person looking at houses to buy. Another decided since He had the option to work from home if there was sufficient work to do from home that he would work from home one day a week no matter what and just sit around waiting for a call about something that could be done online instead of people in the office working on projects that require being there in person such as wiring or installing equipment.

I can say that I have noticed my department’s work load decrease as a result of WFH. So depending on the people and the field I can see where it works for some and not for others. A large part of it is communication and planning. you need to make sure that you know what everyone is doing, that they know what they should be doing and do your best to keep people from abusing it.
 
I used to wfh 2-3 days a week before COVID now I am almost 100% wfh unless I need to test something. I have found that I had to make a second office with only work related things or else I will get distracted here and there. Also put a bed in the second office for quick naps when I need it. Most people though won’t have the ability like I do to make a second office so I sympathize. I also end up working more now than I did before but the trade off is worth it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top