How much power do you need these days?

DWD1961

[H]ard|Gawd
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I'm getting ready to build a new rig. As I have posted elsewhere here, my old rig got necro'ed after 7 years in a nonclimate controlled garage. It works, but I've run into a few problems lately.Nothing drastic but my ASUS wifi card is not playing nicely with Windows 10 (static on audio and stuttering verified by polling my card to router (latency spikes each time it stutters). No fix for it. Other forums reported the problem with the exact card.

Last night I noticed two of my 230mm fans were making a very sight ticking sound. That's to be expected with a ball bearing fan, but not with my fluid dynamic fan. I just have to chalk it up to sitting for so long. I also have a couple 120mm Scythe Gentle Typhoon fans, but they are still dead silent as far as bearing noise goes.

Last night I noticed I was getting static again when I would pull down a web page. I traced it back to a USB 2.0 Y (power) cable plugged into my wifi dongle. No idea why, but I changed ports and the problem went away, and went away in any port with a normal USB 2 cable.

Anyway, I don't want to trouble shoot this old system anymore. Who knows what problems lurk inside the MB caps, etc. It's an old x58 system circa 2008--lol. Just not worth the time.

My old system above Core i7 OCed to 3900Mhz was fine on 500 watts, after I calculated everything. That was a real hog wide open too. My oldPSU was 500 wts Platinum, but was rated at 600 gold, and never ran out of power.

How much power do I need these days for the system below?

-- AMD4 motherboard and a 7 2700 CPU.
--Graphics card will be AMD, but not the top of the line. I'm looking around the $200 mark. I may just keep running my old AMD 7950 card for now.
--Internal wifi/BT card
--NoDVD writers
--I may use a USB scanner no and again, but not much.
--No other external devices except keyboards, mice.

I won't be OCing this time.

Just off the top of my head, with new lower power hardware, it looks like I could get away with 450 wtt PSU easily?
 
450 is probably fine, depending on the GPU you end up getting. I would get a 550-650 watt PSU, the price difference typically isn't that high
 
How much power do you need these days?
all of it.
or a 600-650 for what youre doing. i recommend and personally go with whatever the recommended is for your gpu, at minimum.
 
How much power do you need these days?
all of it.
or a 600-650 for what you're doing. i recommend and personally go with whatever the recommended is for your gpu, at minimum.
The thing about it is that if you add up all the power your system could ever use wide open, add 10% headroom, why go higher? After I did my calcs for that old i7 x58 with a nVidia x295 (Dual GPU card) I found I could run all day with 500 watts, and added another 100wts for overhead. I never ha a problem. Before I had that Stryker 500watt Platinum 600wt gold unit, I had a 1000wt PSU. Everyone was saying for the old core i7s (Bloomfeilds) and the card I was using, yeah 1200 wts. But the calculations never supported it.

For instance, AMD recommends 500wts PSU for the RX580, which runs at 185 wts wide open. I think they say that because they want to cover all general desktops that might run that card.

The AMD 7 2700 uses 65 wts wide open.
Add a couple fans for 12 wts
wifi card
then add 10% overhead
It ballparks around 288-300 wts maximum.
400 wts would be more than enough, right?

What am I missing?

What am I forgetting to add in to justify a 600 wt PSU for my new rig instead of a 450? I want to use a Platinum PSU, and they are more expensive. I'd like to even go with Titanium if I could afford it.
 
Electricity and power haven't changed since the last time you built a rig. You need a PSU that can provide as much power as your components require

Here's a tool that can help calculate that value

https://outervision.com/power-supply-calculator
I used one of those back in the day. Thanks for the link. I'll load it up and see what I get.

OuterVision PSU Calculator part list https://outervision.com/b/vPc2SP

Motherboard: Desktop
Socket: Socket AM4
CPU: 1 x AMD Ryzen 7 2700
CPU Speed: 3200MHz
CPU Vcore: 1.1V
CPU Utilization: 90%
Memory: 0 x 8GB DDR4 Module
Memory: 0 x 8GB DDR4 Module
Video Card Set 1: 1 x AMD Radeon RX 580
Core Clock: 1257MHz
Memory Clock: 2000MHz
Storage: 0 x SSD
PCI Express Card: 0 x WLAN Card
Keyboard: 1 x Standard Keyboard
Mouse: 1 x Gaming Mouse
Fan: 1 x 200mm
Fan: 2 x 120mm
Computer Utilization: 4 hours per day
Gaming / Heavy 3D Application Time: 4 hours per day
Monitor: 1 x LCD 32 inches

Load Wattage: 369W
Recommended Wattage: 419W
Amperage: +3.3V: 9.4A, +5V: 6.8A, +12V: 25.3A
Recommended UPS Rating: 850VA
Generated by OuterVision PSU Calculator 2020-01-08 09:07:21.0

-----------

419 wts recommended
 
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The thing about it is that if you add up all the power your system could ever use wide open, add 10% headroom, why go higher? After I did my calcs for that old i7 x58 with a nVidia x295 (Dual GPU card) I found I could run all day with 500 watts, and added another 100wts for overhead. I never ha a problem. Before I had that Stryker 500watt Platinum 600wt gold unit, I had a 1000wt PSU. Everyone was saying for the old core i7s (Bloomfeilds) and the card I was using, yeah 1200 wts. But the calculations never supported it.

For instance, AMD recommends 500wts PSU for the RX580, which runs at 185 wts wide open. I think they say that because they want to cover all general desktops that might run that card.

The AMD 7 2700 uses 65 wts wide open.
Add a couple fans for 12 wts
wifi card
then add 10% overhead
It ballparks around 288-300 wts maximum.
400 wts would be more than enough, right?

What am I missing?

What am I forgetting to add in to justify a 600 wt PSU for my new rig instead of a 450? I want to use a Platinum PSU, and they are more expensive. I'd like to even go with Titanium if I could afford it.
ive seen so many people that insist that they know better and run the absolute minimum psu that they think they know will work and then have issues. i go by the gpu's recommended plus 100w extra. especially with minimal price differences between 500 and 600w units. my sig rig is on a 600w silverstone.
 
I used one of those back in the day. Thanks for the link. I'll load it up and see what I get.

OuterVision PSU Calculator part list https://outervision.com/b/vPc2SP

Motherboard: Desktop
Socket: Socket AM4
CPU: 1 x AMD Ryzen 7 2700
CPU Speed: 3200MHz
CPU Vcore: 1.1V
CPU Utilization: 90%
Memory: 0 x 8GB DDR4 Module
Memory: 0 x 8GB DDR4 Module
Video Card Set 1: 1 x AMD Radeon RX 580
Core Clock: 1257MHz
Memory Clock: 2000MHz
Storage: 0 x SSD
PCI Express Card: 0 x WLAN Card
Keyboard: 1 x Standard Keyboard
Mouse: 1 x Gaming Mouse
Fan: 1 x 200mm
Fan: 2 x 120mm
Computer Utilization: 4 hours per day
Gaming / Heavy 3D Application Time: 4 hours per day
Monitor: 1 x LCD 32 inches

Load Wattage: 369W
Recommended Wattage: 419W
Amperage: +3.3V: 9.4A, +5V: 6.8A, +12V: 25.3A
Recommended UPS Rating: 850VA
Generated by OuterVision PSU Calculator 2020-01-08 09:07:21.0

-----------

419 wts recommended

Nice, I find sometimes the GPU clocks are not reflective of aftermarket cards. I usually up it little which inevitably throws power in the shitter
 
ive seen so many people that insist that they know better and run the absolute minimum psu that they think they know will work and then have issues. i go by the gpu's recommended plus 100w extra. especially with minimal price differences between 500 and 600w units. my sig rig is on a 600w silverstone.
I don't insist I know better, but I do wonder why AMD would say to use a power supply with 500 watts when their card only consumes 185 wide open? Don't you wonder about that?

Are you checking prices for Platinum PSUS and comparing them, or Gold and lower? I want to get a Platinum cert on my next one, like the old one.
 
Nice, I find sometimes the GPU clocks are not reflective of aftermarket cards. I usually up it little which inevitably throws power in the shitter
Yeah, true. I'm not going to OC anything with my next rig. It's going to run bone stock.
 
I don't insist I know better, but I do wonder why AMD would say to use a power supply with 500 watts when their card only consumes 185 wide open? Don't you wonder about that?

Are you checking prices for Platinum PSUS and comparing them, or Gold and lower? I want to get a Platinum cert on my next one, like the old one.
the overhead is in case of surges and idk what else. i'd rather listen to the people that make the part than people on the internet that think they know better(i dont and didnt mean you).
 
For a power supply, you'll want to run it at roughly 50% load so you achieve the maximum 80+ efficiency rating. It will run cooler/quieter, last longer, and save wasted power draw.
 
the overhead is in case of surges and idk what else. i'd rather listen to the people that make the part than people on the internet that think they know better(i dont and didnt mean you).

The overhead is to account for 99% of possible configurations out there, whether it's a 150 watt CPU with liquid cooling and 10 hard drives or a 50 watt CPU with a single drive and passive cooling. It's a marketing and CYA measure, not an engineer recommendation.

For a power supply, you'll want to run it at roughly 50% load so you achieve the maximum 80+ efficiency rating. It will run cooler/quieter, last longer, and save wasted power draw.

Said it before and I will say it again... That is a very stupid way of sizing what PSU you need.
 
wouldnt the engineers at said company be the ones making the recommendation?!

The marketing and lawyers ask the engineers, and then tweak the numbers to suit their needs. If it were a true engineer, they would probably list a table of what PSU for what level of hardware instead of a single recommendation.
 
I'm getting ready to build a new rig. As I have posted elsewhere here, my old rig got necro'ed after 7 years in a nonclimate controlled garage. It works, but I've run into a few problems lately.Nothing drastic but my ASUS wifi card is not playing nicely with Windows 10 (static on audio and stuttering verified by polling my card to router (latency spikes each time it stutters). No fix for it. Other forums reported the problem with the exact card.

Last night I noticed two of my 230mm fans were making a very sight ticking sound. That's to be expected with a ball bearing fan, but not with my fluid dynamic fan. I just have to chalk it up to sitting for so long. I also have a couple 120mm Scythe Gentle Typhoon fans, but they are still dead silent as far as bearing noise goes.

Last night I noticed I was getting static again when I would pull down a web page. I traced it back to a USB 2.0 Y (power) cable plugged into my wifi dongle. No idea why, but I changed ports and the problem went away, and went away in any port with a normal USB 2 cable.

Anyway, I don't want to trouble shoot this old system anymore. Who knows what problems lurk inside the MB caps, etc. It's an old x58 system circa 2008--lol. Just not worth the time.

My old system above Core i7 OCed to 3900Mhz was fine on 500 watts, after I calculated everything. That was a real hog wide open too. My oldPSU was 500 wts Platinum, but was rated at 600 gold, and never ran out of power.

How much power do I need these days for the system below?

-- AMD4 motherboard and a 7 2700 CPU.
--Graphics card will be AMD, but not the top of the line. I'm looking around the $200 mark. I may just keep running my old AMD 7950 card for now.
--Internal wifi/BT card
--NoDVD writers
--I may use a USB scanner no and again, but not much.
--No other external devices except keyboards, mice.

I won't be OCing this time.

Just off the top of my head, with new lower power hardware, it looks like I could get away with 450 wtt PSU easily?
If I am in doubt and I want a mid to high end rig I typically pickup an 850 Watt Seasonic Gold PS. I have two of these and I have never experience a single hiccup even with OC'ing and running a 2080Ti. The 750 here should be more than you ever need and the quality is simply excellent: https://www.amazon.com/Seasonic-SSR-750FM-Semi-Modular-Warranty-Compact/dp/B0778XF1HL/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=sEASONIC+fOCUS+850+wATT&qid=1578587533&refinements=p_85:2470955011&rnid=2470954011&rps=1&sr=8-1

Here's a nice 160 buck dose of overkill for you. You really can't go wrong with too much power, since these devices tend to degrade over time and use:

https://www.amazon.com/Seasonic-SSR...d_r=95WQ2V52H5REY10R1ZK5&psc=1&qid=1578587643
 
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The marketing and lawyers ask the engineers, and then tweak the numbers to suit their needs. If it were a true engineer, they would probably list a table of what PSU for what level of hardware instead of a single recommendation.
seems like that is just your opinion/theory. ill take what the manufacturer says over some schmo on the internet that thinks they know better.
 
seems like that is just your opinion/theory. ill take what the manufacturer says over some schmo on the internet that thinks they know better.

A theory from being an engineer and having an engineer mindset. Also, it does not take a lot of thought to figure out recommendations are exactly what they are: recommendations for a 99% worst case scenario, and that individual needs will vary.

Edit: It's a good recommendation to go by if you don't want to think about it. If you do want to think about it, it is safe to ignore the recommendation completely provided you put the proper thought into it.
 
A theory from being an engineer and having an engineer mindset.
engineer of what? electronics, mechanical, civil, custodial?! no, id rather not second guess the people that make this stuff based on "internet engineers" opinions. there are numourus people on this forum that thought they knew better and are now underclocking to stay stable and stupid shit like that.
 
engineer of what? electronics, mechanical, civil, custodial?! no, id rather not second guess the people that make this stuff based on "internet engineers" opinions. there are numourus people on this forum that thought they knew better and are now underclocking to stay stable and stupid shit like that.

That simply means they didn't put proper thought into their needs. Again, how much logic does it take to realize that a system with a 50 watt CPU will require 100 less watts than a system with a 150 watt CPU? And since the recommendation is for a 99% use scenario, obviously it's going to include the 150 watt CPU, not the 50 watt.

Additionally, with most quality built PSUs are capable of handling surges 10-20% over their power rating while remaining in specification, which should handle most transient spikes. There used to be a reviewer that would deliberately overload power supplies and see where the shutoff points are and how it performed at the edge.

But hey, you're free to believe whatever you want. If you're willing to blindly trust a number put out by marketers and lawyers while believing they come from the engineers, that's your prerogative.
 
the overhead is in case of surges and idk what else. i'd rather listen to the people that make the part than people on the internet that think they know better(i dont and didnt mean you).
PEn,

I didn't take it that way at all. I know what you're talking about. The only thing I can think of is that card manufacturers are giving the worst case scenario for any desktop running that card in a single card configuration. In other words, they take into account their own power reqs, then add the most power hungry CPU, MB, and OCing someone "normally" might do. They recommend 500wts, and I think that's a pretty good rec. Using my inputs above, I was at 370 watts. Give another 100 watts over head and you get almost 500, so it's a good rec. But it is plenty. I won't go over 500 unless I can get a 550 or 600 for the same or lower price.
 
For a power supply, you'll want to run it at roughly 50% load so you achieve the maximum 80+ efficiency rating. It will run cooler/quieter, last longer, and save wasted power draw.
Yep they have their sweet spots. I was just going to leave that discussion out,but even the better ones can operate very efficiently at idle and other power draws. Anyway, if you are using the PSU at the rated power, such as 500 watts, it's rating should apply unless it's a shitty PSU. That's why I like Johnny Guru. You get to see everything that PSU is doing without any marketing hype. If you do other things beside taxing your PSU, like web and business work, then your PSU is idling mostly, and you want a PSU that has high efficiency with a low load. That's very important for normal computing.
 
If I am in doubt and I want a mid to high end rig I typically pickup an 850 Watt Seasonic Gold PS. I have two of these and I have never experience a single hiccup even with OC'ing and running a 2080Ti. The 750 here should be more than you ever need and the quality is simply excellent: https://www.amazon.com/Seasonic-SSR-750FM-Semi-Modular-Warranty-Compact/dp/B0778XF1HL/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=sEASONIC+fOCUS+850+wATT&qid=1578587533&refinements=p_85:2470955011&rnid=2470954011&rps=1&sr=8-1

Here's a nice 160 buck dose of overkill for you. You really can't go wrong with too much power, since these devices tend to degrade over time and use:

https://www.amazon.com/Seasonic-SSR...d_r=95WQ2V52H5REY10R1ZK5&psc=1&qid=1578587643
Looking for Platinum, though. Running at 300 watts you are using 30-35 watts at the wall with gold. It's pretty good though. I may change my mind on this due to cash constriction on my end. Thanks for the links.
 
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Looking for Platinum, though. Running at 300 watts you are using 30-35 watts at the wall with gold. It's pretty good though. I may change my mind on this due to cash constriction on my end. Thanks for the links.
I like Platinum a lot. However, that's what typically gets me. I get most of that "theoretical" efficiency in the Gold and for half the price.

234.99
https://www.amazon.com/Seasonic-Platinum-SSR-1000PD-Modular-Warranty/dp/B075M3B1R7

219.99
https://www.amazon.com/Seasonic-Platinum-SSR-1000PD-Modular-Warranty/dp/B075M5CPM1?th=1

If you're buying one of these monsters go for the 1000 watt unit, you would be crazy to go 850 for 14 bucks less.
 
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Said it before and I will say it again... That is a very stupid way of sizing what PSU you need.
Actually, no. That's the optimal way to size the power supply from a design standpoint. If you're looking at it from an initial cost standpoint, you would be correct though.

I'm a principal electrical/computer/cyber engineer at a nuclear power facility if you're questioning credentials.. BSE-CE by degree. I've put in tens of millions of dollars worth of computer equipment where I design the system from the ground up with a team of engineers (including PE's). We always optimize power supply ratings for their 80Plus rating to get optimal heat loading calcs and power feed calcs for the locations they are installed. It really matters for breaker sizing, UPS sizing, and HVAC sizing, let alone uptime of the computer system to reduce failures/maintenance.
 
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I like Platinum a lot. However, that's what typically gets me. I get most of that "theoretical" efficiency in the Gold and for half the price.

234.99
https://www.amazon.com/Seasonic-Platinum-SSR-1000PD-Modular-Warranty/dp/B075M3B1R7

219.99
https://www.amazon.com/Seasonic-Platinum-SSR-1000PD-Modular-Warranty/dp/B075M5CPM1?th=1

If you're buying one of these monsters go for the 1000 watt unit, you would be crazy to go 850 for 14 bucks less.

Yep, but no way am i getting a 1000wt PSU. The one I have now, that Stryker listed above, is Platinum up to 500wts, then Gold from 500 to 600wts. It's also fanless. It was about the best PSU youcould get at the time according to Johnny Guru who tested that very unit. If it is going to cause me any problems, though, I'd rather not take that chance.

When I bought my PSU, it was $450.00 USD! That was in 2012!
 
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Actually, no. That's the optimal way to size the power supply from a design standpoint. If you're looking at it from an initial cost standpoint, you would be correct though.

I'm a principal electrical/computer/cyber engineer at a nuclear power facility if you're questioning credentials.. BSE-CE by degree. I've put in tens of millions of dollars worth of computer equipment where I design the system from the ground up with a team of engineers (including PE's). We always optimize power supply ratings for their 80Plus rating to get optimal heat loading calcs and power feed calcs for the locations they are installed. It really matters for breaker sizing, UPS sizing, and HVAC sizing, let alone uptime of the computer system to reduce failures/maintenance.

For your very specific use case where everything is running at a constant power level and every bit of power is infrastrucure cost saved, sure. For the vast majority of home users and enthusiasts, it is not the best way from either initial cost or long term cost perspectives. Just like how efficiency drops as you go above 50%, it also drops when you go below. Size too large and your idle efficiency suffers. Besides, today's gold and platinum PSUs lose at most 3% efficiency from 50% to 100% load, and often less.
 
Yep, but no way am i getting a 1000wt PSU. The one I have now, that Stryker listed above, is Platinum up to 500wts, then Gold from 500 to 600wts. It's also fanless. It was about the best PSU youcould get at the time according to Johnny Guru who tested that very unit. If it is going to cause me any problems, though, I'd rather not take that chance.
It's not delivering 1,000 watts all day long. Having the capability is one thing, drawing it all is another. I always shoot a little (or a lot) higher in my choice of power supply so I cover my ass in case I do something crazy during the life cycle of the system I build. I just picked up a Killawatt like meter and intend to do some testing to see just how much my 2080Ti, the fans, MB and i5 9600 at 5K + SSD & M.2 are drawing. I doubt I am pulling more than 500-550 watts under load. Have to get around to it after I finish the remodeling of the new home.
 
It's not delivering 1,000 watts all day long. Having the capability is one thing, drawing it all is another. I always shoot a little (or a lot) higher in my choice of power supply so I cover my ass in case I do something crazy during the life cycle of the system I build. I just picked up a Killawatt like meter and intend to do some testing to see just how much my 2080Ti, the fans, MB and i5 9600 at 5K + SSD & M.2 are drawing. I doubt I am pulling more than 500-550 watts under load. Have to get around to it after I finish the remodeling of the new home.
If you have a battery backup like UPS it also has a meter. You just have to load the software. You'll be surprised at how much power you really are using wide open, unless you have OCed your rig,m then all bets are off. But, evne when gaming, your rig is not running wide open. Average, it is probably running 60% CPU and 70% GPU with spikes higher, but average, yeah. You would definitely want the spikes covered.
 
Actually, no. That's the optimal way to size the power supply from a design standpoint. If you're looking at it from an initial cost standpoint, you would be correct though.

I'm a principal electrical/computer/cyber engineer at a nuclear power facility if you're questioning credentials.. BSE-CE by degree. I've put in tens of millions of dollars worth of computer equipment where I design the system from the ground up with a team of engineers (including PE's). We always optimize power supply ratings for their 80Plus rating to get optimal heat loading calcs and power feed calcs for the locations they are installed. It really matters for breaker sizing, UPS sizing, and HVAC sizing, let alone uptime of the computer system to reduce failures/maintenance.

So, I have a question for you that I posted in another thread. I have a 7 year old PSU (A very good rebranded Super Flower design) that I ran for normal computing/gaming for about 8 months. Then it got put in the garage for the last 6 years. It's a platinum unit. Has been sitting for 6 years ruined it? I currently have it in my old system running. I used prime 95 to burn it for 4 hours, no problems. I've been using it for gaming the last couple of weeks. I'm going to build a new system soon, but I don't want to use that PSU if it's going to cause me problems.
 
My $.02: Get a new PSU around the 650w range. It's gives some head-room for your power needs, won't break the bank, and eliminates any worries about screwing your new build.

Keep the old one as a spare for a retro rig/emergency's/help a friend.
 
My $.02: Get a new PSU around the 650w range. It's gives some head-room for your power needs, won't break the bank, and eliminates any worries about screwing your new build.

Keep the old one as a spare for a retro rig/emergency's/help a friend.
I may do that. I've been on Johnny Guru forums also trying to get information. I'm looking into a Seasonic Gold unit around the 500-650 range, the ones with the 10 year warranty.. They're hard to find on Amazon. If I have to I'll buy it from New Egg. If nothing else, I lost 160 bucks, but will gain piece of mind.
 
A 650w psu should be sufficient for all single gpu applications and gives you headroom in case you upgrade to a beefier video card or even greater core count cpu.

With your stated preference of platinum psu in mind i’d Recommend you go with Seasonic platinum focus 650w psu. Currently retails for only 126.99 on Amazon. Has generally good reviews and offers semi fanless operation mode.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/cr/B07W7YD7D1/ref=mw_dp_cr

Psu is the piece I never skimp out on when building a new system as a good one can last almost 10 years and is the “heart” of the system.
 
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A


Psu is the piece I never skimp out on when building a new system as a good one can last almost 10 years and is the “heart” of the system.

True that! I actually added that very PSU to my Amazon cart last night, but it's not even available until Jan 25th+.
 
For a power supply, you'll want to run it at roughly 50% load so you achieve the maximum 80+ efficiency rating. It will run cooler/quieter, last longer, and save wasted power draw.
And should have greater stability
 
For a power supply, you'll want to run it at roughly 50% load so you achieve the maximum 80+ efficiency rating. It will run cooler/quieter, last longer, and save wasted power draw.
Over provisioning. True, but the 50% rule is not really true anymore, at least to Corsair's John Gerow.
See time stamp: 17.59
 
The 50% rule has never been true. Just some ignorant people still perpetuate it, just like flat earthers.
 
Incorrect.. look into optimal efficiency for switching power supplies. This is a design proven fact, not a conspiracy theory. Newest generation power supplies even hold true to this, as proven in Jonnyguru tests or any other power electronics testing using AC-->DC switching power supplies. Improvements have been made to make it more around the 40% to 80% loading, but peak efficiency is still in the 50% range. It's sort of funny he makes that statement in the video while running the Jonnyguru website when his own tests contradict it.. lol.

Edit.. here's another article by Jon Gerow, where he again shows on Corsair's own website that peak efficiency is around 50%: https://www.corsair.com/it/es/blog/how-to-build-a-pc---the-power-supply
 
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