Xbox Head Posts "Project Scarlett" (Xbox Series X) SoC Picture, Has that 7nm Tinge

erek

erek

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8K Huh, I bet :(

“Next-generation game consoles are marketing 4K 60 Hz and 8K gaming capability. They likely use a combination of dynamic resolution-scale and variable rate shading to achieve this. The "Project Scarlett" SoC is a semi-custom chip co-designed by Microsoft and AMD, and uses CPU cores based on the company's "Zen 2" microarchitecture, combined with a powerful GPU based on RDNA2, which features hardware-accelerated ray-tracing and variable-rate shading. Hardware enthusiasts on Twitter are abuzz with estimating the die-size of the SoC, with calculations pinning it around the 350 mm² mark ±10 mm², or roughly similar to that of "Project Scorpio," but one must factor in the switch to 7 nm from 16 nm significantly increasing transistor-density.”

https://www.techpowerup.com/262698/...-xbox-series-x-soc-picture-has-that-7nm-tinge

 
Going to have to have a lot of software techniques to make 8K 3D content (AAA more so than indie) possible on that platform.
Looking forward to seeing how this pans out!

From the article:
They likely use a combination of dynamic resolution-scale and variable rate shading to achieve this. The "Project Scarlett" SoC is a semi-custom chip co-designed by Microsoft and AMD, and uses CPU cores based on the company's "Zen 2" microarchitecture, combined with a powerful GPU based on RDNA2, which features hardware-accelerated ray-tracing and variable-rate shading.
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dD6FEuMfpDtGdxiK.jpg
 
I don't think the Xbox Series X is going to be the $400-$500 Xbox but the high end Xbox like the One X that will cost far more than $500. The Xbox.. just Xbox is going to be RDNA1.0 with limited or no Ray-Tracing hardware. Rumors suggest that Sony's PS5 is RDNA1.0 with custom Ray-Tracing not made by AMD, so I doubt that Microsoft was able to get much better hardware at a lower cost. It's also rumored that RDNA2.0 GPU's will utilize HBM memory and I don't see no HBM memory in that photo.
 
DukenukemX said:
I don't think the Xbox Series X is going to be the $400-$500 Xbox but the high end Xbox like the One X that will cost far more than $500. The Xbox.. just Xbox is going to be RDNA1.0 with limited or no Ray-Tracing hardware. Rumors suggest that Sony's PS5 is RDNA1.0 with custom Ray-Tracing not made by AMD, so I doubt that Microsoft was able to get much better hardware at a lower cost. It's also rumored that RDNA2.0 GPU's will utilize HBM memory and I don't see no HBM memory in that photo.
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All rumors... but no HBM doesn't mean no RDNA 2. I think its been semi confirmed that RDNA 2 will support both GDDR and HBM. When I read that I assumed HBM would be reserved for things like RadeonPro cards using RDNA 2... with gaming cards, and consoles getting GDDR. That rumor tracks for me... I can't see AMD making the mistake of going HBM or bust like they did with Vega. That didn't go so well.
 
I'm much less concerned about 8k and much more concerned about 1440p/4k 120/60Hz with VRR (Freesync) support now that more TVs are supporting that. Not being restricted to hard 30 or 60 FPS targets with VRR can be a real game changer for consoles so that devs can spend less time tweaking performance to stay at a locked 30/60 without any dropped frames and more time putting as much geometry and IQ into the game to ensure their entire performance budget is utilized while having that 40-60 FPS buffer to fall back on with VRR.

Also, I know the current Xbone supports 1440p resolutions, but I really hope Sony takes the nod from MS for this too, as I like to play my consoles at my computer desk on my 1440p ultrawide monitor a lot too. I don't expect them to support 21:9 aspect ratios on games, but standard 16:9 1440p would definitely be nice. For now my PS4 Pro only puts out 1080p to my monitor, but super sampling does seem to work pretty well in terms of boosting sharpness and image quality at least.
 
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Red Falcon said:
Going to have to have a lot of software techniques to make 8K 3D content (AAA more so than indie) possible on that platform.
Looking forward to seeing how this pans out!

From the article:


View attachment 213775
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Sony has been using "checkerboarding" to construct a 4K like image on PS4 pro. And it generally looks better than a simple resolution scale. I expect Sony will be making continued use of this. Not only for 8K, but even still for 4K. Two excellent examples would be God of War and Horizon Zero Dawn. Its actually a bit frustrating that we don't have checkerboarding on PC.

Additionally, Nvidia's DLSS has finally gotten interesting, with the quality shown in Control. No reason devs couldn't come up with something similar for use on Playstation and/or Xbone.
 
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DukenukemX said:
I don't think the Xbox Series X is going to be the $400-$500 Xbox but the high end Xbox like the One X that will cost far more than $500. The Xbox.. just Xbox is going to be RDNA1.0 with limited or no Ray-Tracing hardware. Rumors suggest that Sony's PS5 is RDNA1.0 with custom Ray-Tracing not made by AMD, so I doubt that Microsoft was able to get much better hardware at a lower cost. It's also rumored that RDNA2.0 GPU's will utilize HBM memory and I don't see no HBM memory in that photo.
Click to expand...

I think since sony uses something like Vulkan but MS uses DXR that is shared with PC ports, the hardware for Raytracing Solution is also likely to be different

Probably AMD will implement Xbox solution in RDNA 2 so that games are portable across PC & Xbox

Wheareas for sony custom chip might make sense as a chiplet solution is usually cheaper than building everything in one massive chip

Also since Sony started working "earlier" with AMD, the PS5 might actually be RDNA1 with some advanced features pulled in like PS4 had Rapid Packed math & checkerboarding when none of AMD's released GPUs at that time had that feature
 
I doubt the new Xbox and Playstation will have any difference in hardware supported features. I'm betting these chips are basically going to be cut from the same cloth. The only difference being amount of compute/shading units (and RT units, if AMD even separates them), clockspeeds, etc. To fit their form factors.
Otherwise, I think we will be looking at the same basic design. In this day, it just doesn't make financial sense for MS or Sony to pay that much extra, for an exclusive design. I think AMD is just making the best thing they possibly can, with the money from both companies. MS and Sony will put a version of it in their consoles. AMD will spin out a version for PC. And the big separation between MS and Sony will be marketing, services, exclusives. Possibly overall performance, in the case of the high end Xbox unit (which MS might be paying extra to bin silicon for. But I don't think there will otherwise be exclusive features). However, I expect Sony will release a PS5 pro, eventually. MS seems to be playing that card early, hoping it banks for their brand.
 
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yeah i think the chips will be 100% identical hardware and feature wise... where things might differ might be clock speeds based on what ever cooling solutions microsoft and sony use. xbox will use a custom dx12 RT api, while sony will likely use a vulkan implementation.
 
sirmonkey1985 said:
yeah i think the chips will be 100% identical hardware and feature wise... where things might differ might be clock speeds based on what ever cooling solutions microsoft and sony use. xbox will use a custom dx12 RT api, while sony will likely use a vulkan implementation.
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What evidence have you seen that suggests this?
The current generation do not use the exact same hardware setup, outside of both being Jaguar.
 
Red Falcon said:
What evidence have you seen that suggests this?
The current generation do not use the exact same hardware setup, outside of both being Jaguar.
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They aren't exactly the same but they are more similar than not. If they were exactly the same there would be no point (other than OS and build environments being different).
 
Red Falcon said:
What evidence have you seen that suggests this?
The current generation do not use the exact same hardware setup, outside of both being Jaguar.
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When PS4 and Xbone launched, AMD had a full GPU product suite out, with different steps in the architecture, depending upon which performance level you chose. (Xbox one is based on the 7770/7790, which is a newer chip. But lower performance than the 78** series the PS4 is based upon. Which itself is a newer revision, but lower performance version of the 79*** series which preceded it). And both Sony and MS wanted to keep things cheap. So they chose from what was available, rather than spend a bunch on R&D for something all new.

PS4 pro and Xbox One X are both based on Polaris, with customizations which Mark Cerny says were pulled from existing R&D from products further down the road map. With X likely being a slightly newer revision (I.E. RX480 vs RX580). They are essentially the same base architecture, but One X has more of everything. More shader cores, more core speed, wider memory bus, etc and is probably slightly more efficient. One X also supports freesync, which may or may not be present in the features of the PS4 pro. Who knows. I sort of wonder if MS had the option to choose a Vega based chip, but instead opted to go with Polaris.

We are looking at a different scenario with the next gen consoles, than with the launch of PS4 and Xbone. Sony and MS are essentially waiting on a brand new product generation from AMD, both CPU and GPU. Indeed, they can choose varied amounts of compute/shader cores, different memory configurations, etc. But the core architecture and features and overall revision for the GPU is going to be the same. Same deal with the CPU portion. They don't have a bunch of things to choose from, this time around. If Sony and MS want to compete with eachother on hardware, they are going to use basically the same thing. Give or take a few MHZ and a few shader cores.

The big difference is going to be the marketing and physical presentation. My impression is that MS is using its incredibly deep pockets to float Xbox along with high end hardware and a low cost subscription service for all of their 1st party games and also whichever 3rd party games they can wrangle. I'm expecting Xbox Series X to launch with at least 3 high profile 1st party games, which you can play day 1, for $5 per month. And MS is banking that all gets more people to play Xbox and the financials will even out eventually.

Playstation likely isn't rich enough to take such an aggressive approach. Maybe Sony is just happy to keep things in the middle. A little less powerful, more traditional software model. But......arguably pretty amazing suite of first party IPs, with obvious potential for more. Its just speculation, though. MS seems more obvious about their approach, at this point. I feel like the physical form factor of Series X tells us a lot. But Sony could very well surprise us with anything (an obvious one being some sort of subscription service). There is still a lot of time.
 
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keep in mind that by phasing out physical media (which, while not fully implemented yet, is getting there), microsoft and sony both get far more income from the games as every game sale doesn't lose them future sales thru the used game market.

That's got to be a very big chunk of change over the lifetime of the systems.

So I expect the hardware to be loss-leading even more so than the previous generation was for MS and sony.
 
Marees said:
I think since sony uses something like Vulkan but MS uses DXR that is shared with PC ports, the hardware for Raytracing Solution is also likely to be different
Click to expand...
Sony uses some custom API they made while DXR makes sense for Microsoft.
Probably AMD will implement Xbox solution in RDNA 2 so that games are portable across PC & Xbox
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I don't get how AMD will help make games portable between PC and Xbox when Nvidia has like 90% of the graphic card sales? Microsoft is trying to extend Xbox gaming into PC and they've done nothing to embrace PC gaming. Their end game is to extinguish PC gaming but they're just as afraid of being absorbed into the PC gaming market. The PC gaming market is bigger than Xbox right now.
Also since Sony started working "earlier" with AMD, the PS5 might actually be RDNA1 with some advanced features pulled in like PS4 had Rapid Packed math & checkerboarding when none of AMD's released GPUs at that time had that feature
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I don't know if RNDA2 will even be ready to be used by Christmas 2020? You hear nothing about RDNA2 from AMD. Also, I don't know about the PS4 using special features when people have long hacked the PS4 to run Linux and actually used the open source drivers to run Portal2. Can't be that special.

 
DukenukemX said:
Sony uses some custom API they made while DXR makes sense for Microsoft.

I don't get how AMD will help make games portable between PC and Xbox when Nvidia has like 90% of the graphic card sales? Microsoft is trying to extend Xbox gaming into PC and they've done nothing to embrace PC gaming. Their end game is to extinguish PC gaming but they're just as afraid of being absorbed into the PC gaming market. The PC gaming market is bigger than Xbox right now.

I don't know if RNDA2 will even be ready to be used by Christmas 2020? You hear nothing about RDNA2 from AMD. Also, I don't know about the PS4 using special features when people have long hacked the PS4 to run Linux and actually used the open source drivers to run Portal2. Can't be that special.

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The next gen consoles are RDNA 2 for the GPU and Zen 2 for the CPU
 
DukenukemX said:
Also, I don't know about the PS4 using special features when people have long hacked the PS4 to run Linux and actually used the open source drivers to run Portal2. Can't be that special.
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It does have unified memory, and since even though it is an x86-64 based system, it is a non-IBM compatible (similar to PC-98 systems) and does require reworking of the Linux kernel and OS to get everything functioning; it is actually quite special (or custom!) and these guys did a ton of work to get Linux working on it, so mad props to them for getting it going.
Mentioned a bit about relocating things in memory in the video you posted 6:20 and as he said, the PS4 is not a PC, which is correct.

Awesome video btw, much thanks! (y)
 
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