Picard Will Lead "Radically Altered" Life in New Star Trek Series

nilepez said:
Sounds like a Jandor problem. Virtually all art is political. I guess you also hated First Blood (as well as the cartoon like sequels), because they were all political...or was it OK, because it jibes with your politics? Surely you hated Star Trek TOS, because it was certainly political or is it OK if it comes from your youth before you were political?

Movies have always been political.
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I'm not talking about political opinion, but political propaganda. It's like the opposite of a free opinion, you could discuss. It is like the official propaganda in Soviet Union. There is no discussion and even discussing it becomes suspicious.
This is what it is about in the cinema, tv shows and media of today. Just read some old media, watch old movies, and you'll see the difference.
You'll be thinking : wow, nobody would dare to say that today.

In this propaganda TV Shows made for younger people, show how to consider, judge or ban a divergent point of view. It's about educating the young how to act against free speech and free thinking. It's in most TV shows but very often in TV shows for the young. And this is now also the case in the media.
Also most of the subjects picked up by the media are oriented for that propaganda and it's astonishing how all the global media speak about the same subjects nearly using the same words, while there are plenty of things happening in a day and a lot of interpretations and ways to describe the same subject.
Just think about all this and how you are brainwashed. Because repeating the same words is part of the brainwashing, so you avoid thinking and make an association with an automated response to the subject.
And mind that this is quite new in the US, global media control developing for about 10 years, not yet totally the case in the UK, but UK media, especially newspapers, is not close to what it used to be and it is about 30 years now that this is totally the case in France (end of the 90s).
 
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JMCB said:
You can be a republican and not like Trump, just like being a democrat and not liking Obama. People can having their own opinions that aren't formed by the media...
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Mind that I separated both opinions in my post, but usually find both opinions in the same TV show. Actually Trump is the best anti-democrat of today, not really republican in all the ways it used to be.
The democrats of today, meaning those in charge, are some people thinking of transforming the World into what Soviet Union used to be. There is a collection of those democrate celebrities, but of course not all democrats are that way.
 
HorseproofBacon said:
Hope this show isn't too "woke". That is a cancer appearing in many shows/movies/games lately that needs to stop as it jarringly pulls the viewer out of any sense of realism.
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I don't mind nuanced social commentary that doesn't throw conclusions at the viewer. I agree that heavy-handedness would be inappropriate, but it should also be noted that Star Trek has traditionally been a bit progressive, just not in a Portland-Antifa-attacking-your-car way.
 
IdiotInCharge said:
I don't mind nuanced social commentary that doesn't throw conclusions at the viewer. I agree that heavy-handedness would be inappropriate, but it should also be noted that Star Trek has traditionally been a bit progressive, just not in a Portland-Antifa-attacking-your-car way.
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Oh I'm aware of the progressiveness of trek, but MOST of the episodes in all the series up to Enterprise were subtle and more thought provoking rather than "LOOK AT ME! THINK LIKE ME! AREN'T I AWESOME? DON'T YOU DARE THINK FOR YOURSELF" that a lot of shows, movies, etc. are starting to show.
 
I worry they are truly creating what was supposed to be a joke...

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HorseproofBacon said:
Oh I'm aware of the progressiveness of trek, but MOST of the episodes in all the series up to Enterprise were subtle and more thought provoking rather than "LOOK AT ME! THINK LIKE ME! AREN'T I AWESOME? DON'T YOU DARE THINK FOR YOURSELF" that a lot of shows, movies, etc. are starting to show.
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TNG post Roddenberry and DS9 are the only Trek series you can really call subtle and even then they could get pretty in your face about things. TOS and Voyager were anything but subtle.
 
Derangel said:
TNG post Roddenberry and DS9 are the only Trek series you can really call subtle and even then they could get pretty in your face about things. TOS and Voyager were anything but subtle.
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And generally they were just... smooth about it. DS9 remains my favorite for a variety of reasons to include approaching social subjects directly but also honestly.
 
HorseproofBacon said:
Oh I'm aware of the progressiveness of trek, but MOST of the episodes in all the series up to Enterprise were subtle and more thought provoking rather than "LOOK AT ME! THINK LIKE ME! AREN'T I AWESOME? DON'T YOU DARE THINK FOR YOURSELF" that a lot of shows, movies, etc. are starting to show.
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I think Discovery was perhaps a bit more forced, but I do mean only a bit. I read quite a few opinions before watching each episode and found quite honestly that while the "offensive" content was there, it wasn't so much in ones' face as it was perhaps less necessary / less supported narrative direction.

I can't say that I had any real objection to the content, though, except where the narrative was weaker.
 
IdiotInCharge said:
I think Discovery was perhaps a bit more forced, but I do mean only a bit. I read quite a few opinions before watching each episode and found quite honestly that while the "offensive" content was there, it wasn't so much in ones' face as it was perhaps less necessary / less supported narrative direction.

I can't say that I had any real objection to the content, though, except where the narrative was weaker.
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Discovery doesn't follow or adhere to star trek ideals, that's what makes it bad. The "progressiveness" is just adding insult to injury.
 
Derangel said:
TNG post Roddenberry and DS9 are the only Trek series you can really call subtle and even then they could get pretty in your face about things. TOS and Voyager were anything but subtle.
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It's not about being subtle / in your face. It's about being reasoned. TNG always explained its reasons trough monologue and back and forth between characters. Discovery just presents things to you which you should accept without question and reason. TNG opened dialogues. Discovery(modern progressivism) wants to end all dialogue.
 
IdiotInCharge said:
I think Discovery was perhaps a bit more forced, but I do mean only a bit. I read quite a few opinions before watching each episode and found quite honestly that while the "offensive" content was there, it wasn't so much in ones' face as it was perhaps less necessary / less supported narrative direction.

I can't say that I had any real objection to the content, though, except where the narrative was weaker.
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I have to agree with your take on things. Discovery felt forced, almost artificially so at times. I never found myself offended by any of the content. It all just felt like it was jammed in there, rather than even shoehorned in with some smooth flowing narrative. Which brings me to the other point you make, the narrative direction was pretty bad. Visually, the show had the feel of the JJ Verse which meant it was a sight to behold with some damn fine CG.

It just didn't feel "right" and for all those saying that none of the new stuff is correct because it doesn't fit into the peaceful narrative of the core concept of TOS...

Um... There has always been combat in Star Trek. There will always be those who are fast to fight, Starfleet ships are armed and their people are trained in advanced combat forms for a reason. To be ready to fight when necessary and to defend the weak. The entire principle behind Starfleet may be a benevolent one, but they are by no means pussies.

Combat sells tickets, drives ratings up and saves shows. It's the big battles we recall fondly from DS9 and TNG. Also the smaller, more personal ones, like from The Wrath of Khan pitting two federation star ships against one another.

If there was no damn action in Star Trek I think there would be a shitload of us that would walk away from it. Star Trek: Space Hippies is not something I have any desire to see.

Dammit... Star Trek already has Space Hippies, thank god they're not Starfleet...

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Susquehannock said:
Me either yet it was done. TOS s3, ep 20 - The Way to Eden. Which I suspect you were referring to.



But yeah. The so called progressive ideals did seem a lot more forced in Discovery.
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I actually borrowed the imagery out of a desire to emphasize the space hippies ;) than to cite the actual content of that, specific, episode.

The big problem I have with most of these franchises is that they are forcing in the stuff. One would "logically" expect this stuff to be widely accepted in these timelines. Thus any specific call-outs these shows do is, really, somewhat jarring. The only reason to call it out in the open is to push agendas of today, it has nothing to do with a society hundreds of years more advanced... Just makes the shows seem even more dated. I always thought that Star Wars and Star Trek had meant something to damn near everyone that was a fan of them regardless of race, color, creed or sexual preference. They were open for interpretation. Society today will not allow that notion.

There was a certain beauty in shows not having a lot of sexualized content in them. Nowadays, damn near everything has to throw it in your face. Honestly, it's one of those things I think BSG would have done well with obscuring and sticking to good story rather than the several Cylon sex orgies, the starbuck screw fest and fat Apollo cheating on his wife...

A good story will be able to stand apart from all the sexual references and still be a good story. I am all fine an good with a nice steamy sex story for film. Just don't really think it even needs to be in your face present in Science Fiction much. Some shows do it right, others just push it all kinds of wrong (The Expanse did it rather well).
 
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Susquehannock said:
Me either yet it was done. TOS s3, ep 20 - The Way to Eden. Which I suspect you were referring to.



But yeah. The so called progressive ideals did seem a lot more forced in Discovery.
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Except for the blond space hippy chick that episode is seriously painful to watch. It's definitely towards the top of my list of TOS crap episodes. However, it does have a really good poetic justice ending which is the reason I sit through it when I rewatch TOS.
 
Legendary Gamer said:
I actually borrowed the imagery out of a desire to emphasize the space hippies ;) than to cite the actual content of that, specific, episode.

The big problem I have with most of these franchises is that they are forcing in the stuff. One would "logically" expect this stuff to be widely accepted in these timelines. Thus any specific call-outs these shows do is, really, somewhat jarring. The only reason to call it out in the open is to push agendas of today, it has nothing to do with a society hundreds of years more advanced... Just makes the shows seem even more dated. I always thought that Star Wars and Star Trek had meant something to damn near everyone that was a fan of them regardless of race, color, creed or sexual preference. They were open for interpretation. Society today will not allow that notion.

There was a certain beauty in shows not having a lot of sexualized content in them. Nowadays, damn near everything has to throw it in your face. Honestly, it's one of those things I think BSG would have done well with obscuring and sticking to good story rather than the several Cylon sex orgies, the starbuck screw fest and fat Apollo cheating on his wife...

A good story will be able to stand apart from all the sexual references and still be a good story. I am all fine an good with a nice steamy sex story for film. Just don't really think it even needs to be in your face present in Science Fiction much. Some shows do it right, others just push it all kinds of wrong (The Expanse did it rather well).
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TOS, TNG, and DS9 also called out issues of their time. Let's not forget that TOS had the first interracial kiss on television. It was a series that pushed boundaries. Something being widely accepted doesn't mean that issues don't still exist or that there aren't ways to explore those topics. However, I think "forced" is the right word here. Alternatively, one could use the term "lazy". Exploring sensitive topics in a sci-fi setting in any meaningful manner requires creativity and a lot of effort. The Hollywood model prioritizes quick, cheap, and expendable over being thought-provoking.
 
Derangel said:
Something being widely accepted doesn't mean that issues don't still exist or that there aren't ways to explore those topics.
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If something is widely accepted then mentioning it is not pushing the boundaries.

Also just because something is not accepted doesn't mean we should be pushing towards accepting it. What discovery pushes is misguided at best, sinister at worst.
 
Legendary Gamer said:
Um... There has always been combat in Star Trek. There will always be those who are fast to fight, Starfleet ships are armed and their people are trained in advanced combat forms for a reason. To be ready to fight when necessary and to defend the weak. The entire principle behind Starfleet may be a benevolent one, but they are by no means pussies.
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Two things, yes there has always and should always be CONFLICT in Star Trek, but it should not be an action franchise and recent history has shown that.

There is a huge difference between the focus being action, combat and conflict (STD), as opposed to exploration, conflict resolution, and expansion of what it means to exist. Traditional Star Trek the focus was never Combat, it could happen in any episode, it might not, there was always conflict of some kind or kinds that had to be resolved by the cast being the crew and ship (and if you pay attention to Star Trek the ship is part of the cast).

Star Trek begun to lose itself in the milieu of action franchises when they shifted, started with the final TNG movie, then Enterprise, and was taken to 11 with the JJ verse. It lost its core sense of exploration and wonder and replaced it with 'pew pew pew' and frankly Star Wars does everything pew better.

They need to return to their roots, and those roots aren't space hippies (not sure why you think that).
 
Aireoth said:
Two things, yes there has always and should always be CONFLICT in Star Trek, but it should not be an action franchise and recent history has shown that.

There is a huge difference between the focus being action, combat and conflict (STD), as opposed to exploration, conflict resolution, and expansion of what it means to exist. Traditional Star Trek the focus was never Combat, it could happen in any episode, it might not, there was always conflict of some kind or kinds that had to be resolved by the cast being the crew and ship (and if you pay attention to Star Trek the ship is part of the cast).

Star Trek begun to lose itself in the milieu of action franchises when they shifted, started with the final TNG movie, then Enterprise, and was taken to 11 with the JJ verse. It lost its core sense of exploration and wonder and replaced it with 'pew pew pew' and frankly Star Wars does everything pew better.

They need to return to their roots, and those roots aren't space hippies (not sure why you think that).
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I think I was overly compressing the issues. Your presentation and rationale are much more eloquent than mine ;).

I like the way you think. You are correct, it would be nice if they could get back to their roots. That would require good writers that actually knew something about the property to begin with (and care). It's something the entire franchise is lacking.

Honestly, I sincerely hope I never see another JJ movie. If I do, it had better be him on the visuals and someone else doing the damn directing. I have no desire to see the last Star Wars film... none at all.
 
Aireoth said:
Star Trek begun to lose itself in the milieu of action franchises when they shifted, started with the final TNG movie, then Enterprise, and was taken to 11 with the JJ verse. It lost its core sense of exploration and wonder and replaced it with 'pew pew pew' and frankly Star Wars does everything pew better.
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Actually Enterprise produced quite a few great episodes, ones that were very close to the original idea of Star Trek, and of course a lot of terrible ones as well. But we'd be lying if we said TOS or TNG didn't have bad episodes. Hell the entire first season of DS9 was pretty terrible imho.
 
M76 said:
Actually Enterprise produced quite a few great episodes, ones that were very close to the original idea of Star Trek, and of course a lot of terrible ones as well. But we'd be lying if we said TOS or TNG didn't have bad episodes. Hell the entire first season of DS9 was pretty terrible imho.
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The difference is in the quantity, enterprise was by and large garbage until the last season and a half, it is a shame that it got better and then cancelled.
 
Aireoth said:
enterprise was by and large garbage until the last season and a half
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From what I read long afterwards, they found out they were getting canceled after season 3 started, so they looked at a couple of season's worth of stories they had and tried to pack the last season with all the best episodes from the lot.

I personally mostly liked season 3.
 
Aireoth said:
Maybe, I think it’s more a cause of the std... they basically explain it in one of the better arcs of Enterprise.
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That's mostly what I'm referring to, yeah.

DS9's time-travel episode had Worf comment "we don't talk about that", which was only surprising because the crew were themselves surprised outside of Worf. Figure that would have been a part of their history, but you can't account for canon not being written yet.
 
1_rick said:
From what I read long afterwards, they found out they were getting canceled after season 3 started, so they looked at a couple of season's worth of stories they had and tried to pack the last season with all the best episodes from the lot.

I personally mostly liked season 3.
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I didn't make it through season 1. Bacula trying to look like he's having a deep thought mostly resulted in him looking constipated. I didn't hate the engineer guy, but now I don't remember anyone else except the Vulcan lady they'd strip down for ratings periodically.
 
PhaseNoise said:
I didn't make it through season 1. Bacula trying to look like he's having a deep thought mostly resulted in him looking constipated. I didn't hate the engineer guy, but now I don't remember anyone else except the Vulcan lady they'd strip down for ratings periodically.
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Rick is right, 3 turned a corner and started to get much better, then 4 was ok, kinda rushed because they where ending.
 
I like Enterprise. Didn't watch it when it came out, have watched it through more than a few times since. And yes, I like the Vulcan chick- but I always like that character. Just more when they're hot.
 
Enterprise probably has the highest ratio of good episodes to bad episodes of any series and it's short even if you start over at season 1.

The intro music killed it before it got started.
 
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