New Small Business Server suggestions

Current server: Dell R310 w/ single Xeon X3450 (4c/8t, 2.6Ghz base, 3.2Ghz boost), 32GB of ram, 3x 300GB 15k SAS drives, 1x 4TB USB external drive. Windows Server 2008 i think. Looks to be 2x free PCIe 2.0 slots.

I've recently been vocal in getting our people upgrades - got two of our users off of 10 year old Dell's into new custom build Ryzen 5 systems. Going from spinners to SSD alone was shocking for them. Couple years ago I got me and the boss off of Core i7 920 Alienware systems into proper Dell Workstations w/ an i7 6700 & Quadro cards. Now everyone in the office daily has a system less than 4 years old. So now any perceived slow downs seem to be coming from the server, essentially anytime you open/copy/save files or say the Sage Peachtree database gets accessed. The thing is a dinosaur.

Our ENTIRE data set, all company files, SolidWorks files, misc engineering files, Sage accounting database, is around 400GB.

4-5 users in the office. 3-4 users out of the office that VPN in to transfer files (photos/video's, etc)
2 in office heavy SolidWorks CAD users. No SolidWorks PDM yet.
3 in office heavy Sage Accounting users (and it's sloooow for them)

I had the boss let me login to the server locally to get a look at all this stuff, and I just loaded up the performance monitor and watched as the hard disks were essentially pegged at 60-100% usage, likewise with the CPU. Around 16GB of ram in use. Just from basically 3-4 people in the office doing everyday mundane tasks.

I'm told our e-mail currently runs through the server still as well, although is supposed to be moving "to the cloud".

Is this something I could possibly find a bootable (for non-UEFI bios mind you) PCIe SSD, a 10Gbps PCIe ethernet card, and remove some of the bottleneck? (of course have to update to a 10Gbps switch + clients.

Otherwise, couldn't I build a cheap Ryzen or Intel system with consumer hardware and be happy? I mean...these guys completely missed the boat on the SSD revolution...that alone...any I imagine any modern Sata or NVMe SSD drive is going to be not only exponentially faster, but more reliable than hot 300GB piles of spinning rust.

I'm not afraid of building a custom homebrew server...the only reason I see to get them a new Dell (and to me looks like a colossal waste of money) is if I quit and aren't here to help support them. (which I'm good at desktop stuff, but haven't dabbled in the Windows Server/SQL database etc world, but it's apparent if I want it done right I'll have to do it myself)

We do have an outsourced IT guy...he's great..but he seems content to let them (my company) tread water and suffer with ancient hardware.

What direction should I go here to end the suffering?

*EDIT*
Added links to spec sheet and tech guide to the PowerEdge R310.
R310 Spec Sheet
R310 Tech Guide

Can confirm, the 3x 300GB drives are on an H700 Raid card. 600GB drive so we can assume RAID 5 as vincel thought.

3 HDDs probably is the bottleneck (maybe in raid 5). Just get a enterprise 1TB SSD and you done. 10Gb is ok for office LAN but doesn't make any difference for VPN.

typically any server used for a database should be its own machine. that would probably take 60% of ur load off right there

If you're looking for a prebuilt I just got an HP ML110 Gen10 in for a client (P10813-001 model) and it's pretty nice for the price, 10 core 4210 CPU, comes with hw raid card, etc. and is very quiet. I think you have to order them from a reseller but they aren't too bad cost wise.

https://buy.hpe.com/us/en/servers/t.../hpe-proliant-ml110-gen10-server/p/1010192782
https://h20195.www2.hpe.com/v2/getdocument.aspx?docname=a00021851enw

Other thing is which if guy is great probably does, but make sure if you get a new system you get a backup solution for it.

vincel said:

3 HDDs probably is the bottleneck (maybe in raid 5). Just get a enterprise 1TB SSD and you done. 10Gb is ok for office LAN but doesn't make any difference for VPN.

Click to expand...

So I was digging around seeing which drive I can plug in. Looks for sure I need to get a firmware update for the Dell H700 raid card, when this server was in it's heyday they only allowed Dell Certified Drives to function on it, browsing Dell's support forums it looks like they removed that limitation in the later firmware releases.. I'm guessing you're right that it's in a RAID 5. So I'm looking for an SAS 6 GB/s SSD drive (I assume 12GB/s drives are backwards compatible?) Being it's probably in RAID 5, is that something I could hotswap in and let it rebuild, maybe add in 3x 400GB or 3x 800GB SSDs?? Or add it to the 4th bay as a single drive and ghost the array to the new SSD?

Or ditch the RAID card entirely and just use an Enterprise class SATA drive? (which looks to be WAAAY cheaper)

ChRoNo16 said:

typically any server used for a database should be its own machine. that would probably take 60% of ur load off right there

Click to expand...

Isn't that what they use Virtual Machines for these days? It took me nearly 2 years to get my company to buy ONE PC...I'm going to have a hard time swinging 3 servers! (file server, Sage Peachtree Accounting database, future SolidWorks PDM database)

coynatha said:

So I was digging around seeing which drive I can plug in. Looks for sure I need to get a firmware update for the Dell H700 raid card, when this server was in it's heyday they only allowed Dell Certified Drives to function on it, browsing Dell's support forums it looks like they removed that limitation in the later firmware releases.. I'm guessing you're right that it's in a RAID 5. So I'm looking for an SAS 6 GB/s SSD drive (I assume 12GB/s drives are backwards compatible?) Being it's probably in RAID 5, is that something I could hotswap in and let it rebuild, maybe add in 3x 400GB or 3x 800GB SSDs?? Or add it to the 4th bay as a single drive and ghost the array to the new SSD?

Or ditch the RAID card entirely and just use an Enterprise class SATA drive? (which looks to be WAAAY cheaper)




Isn't that what they use Virtual Machines for these days? It took me nearly 2 years to get my company to buy ONE PC...I'm going to have a hard time swinging 3 servers! (file server, Sage Peachtree Accounting database, future SolidWorks PDM database)

Click to expand...

Having it running in a VM doesnt guarantee its still not bottlenecking the disk drives. upgrading the h700 isnt too bad, you can also use consumer SSD's. Dont get caught up the the enterprise BS. Im running dual 500gb samsung Evo 870's and ive never had a single issue in my dell server

coynatha said:

So I was digging around seeing which drive I can plug in. Looks for sure I need to get a firmware update for the Dell H700 raid card, when this server was in it's heyday they only allowed Dell Certified Drives to function on it, browsing Dell's support forums it looks like they removed that limitation in the later firmware releases.. I'm guessing you're right that it's in a RAID 5. So I'm looking for an SAS 6 GB/s SSD drive (I assume 12GB/s drives are backwards compatible?) Being it's probably in RAID 5, is that something I could hotswap in and let it rebuild, maybe add in 3x 400GB or 3x 800GB SSDs?? Or add it to the 4th bay as a single drive and ghost the array to the new SSD?

Or ditch the RAID card entirely and just use an Enterprise class SATA drive? (which looks to be WAAAY cheaper)




Isn't that what they use Virtual Machines for these days? It took me nearly 2 years to get my company to buy ONE PC...I'm going to have a hard time swinging 3 servers! (file server, Sage Peachtree Accounting database, future SolidWorks PDM database)

Click to expand...

Just migrate the Sage DB to the SSD and leave the OS on the original array, and use the original array as backup. If one SSD could not keep up with Disk IO, then try raid0 with 2 or 3 SSD. Samsung Pro are good candidate, but not sure how they run on raid.

https://www.dell.com/downloads/global/products/pedge/en/PowerEdgeR310TechGuide.pdf

See page 41, section 9.4 & 9.6... So I could just get 3x plain SATA SSD's and put them in a RAID 5? The SATA controller only does 3Gbps.

Just trying to collect all the options.

Samsung 860 EVO worth the extra $20 over the Crucial MX500? (at 1TB). I was gonna buy ONE drive and see if the server will even work with it. If not, I'll just buy it off the company and take it home.

I dont see the need to put the SSDs in a RAID 5. Likely a lot more writes to the SSDs for no real gain.

How many SATA ports are free? Slapping two 1 or 2 TB SSDs in a RAID 1 for redundancy, or 2 in a RAID 0 for speed if you're saturating the interface should be easy enough.

Are you mostly IO bound at this point and not any where near CPU limited?


(this sounds like a project I would have done at a prior job)

Sulphademus said:

I dont see the need to put the SSDs in a RAID 5. Likely a lot more writes to the SSDs for no real gain.

How many SATA ports are free? Slapping two 1 or 2 TB SSDs in a RAID 1 for redundancy, or 2 in a RAID 0 for speed if you're saturating the interface should be easy enough.

Are you mostly IO bound at this point and not any where near CPU limited?


(this sounds like a project I would have done at a prior job)

Click to expand...

It's hard to tell, I don't get a lot of time on the server. Boss is gone the next couple days so I can waste some time tinkering. In the short time I was watching, it certainly seems more IO bound.

I believe all six onboard SATA ports are free. The only three hard drives in the system appear to be on the H700 raid card.

I wouldn't worry about upgrading the existing server. Server 2008 r2 loses support with Windows 7 January 2020. The box should be replaced if possible.

Given the email comment I will assume you aren't super familiar with Server OS's (not an insult). If this server is running Exchange it is very likely there is other functionality you will want to keep in mind (DHCP, DNS, AD\DC, WSUS, PPTP VPN, ETC.). If that is the case hardware is the simple part of your problem.

Make sure you are fully aware of what you might be stepping into. You may be better off just being a PC savvy middle man between your Boss and an IT provider \ contractor to help facilitate an upgrade.

Kardonxt said:

I wouldn't worry about upgrading the existing server. Server 2008 r2 loses support with Windows 7 January 2020. The box should be replaced if possible.

Given the email comment I will assume you aren't super familiar with Server OS's (not an insult). If this server is running Exchange it is very likely there is other functionality you will want to keep in mind (DHCP, DNS, AD\DC, WSUS, PPTP VPN, ETC.). If that is the case hardware is the simple part of your problem.

Make sure you are fully aware of what you might be stepping into. You may be better off just being a PC savvy middle man between your Boss and an IT provider \ contractor to help facilitate an upgrade.

Click to expand...

Oh believe me I know. Problem is, it's gotten to the point, if I don't do it, NOBODY will. I'm to the point I'll hire my own IT guy to come in if need be. (and I have a friends spouse who runs a local IT company to call-in if shit gets F'd!)

Before I got here the only way ANY hardware was upgraded is if it failed or was broken on accident. (dropped Laptops for example) If I would have paid more attention when I interviewed, and realized all the designers/engineers were on 32" 720p TV's for monitors, I would have RAN out the door. I natrually assumed they were on big 1440/1600p monitors. I already put all those guys on the unemployment line.

It may be worth having someone come in and take a quick look at the server to see what you are working with \ tell you what exactly the server is doing and give you a proposal to upgrade.

I know my company would do this for free (or maybe an hour of labor depending on workload) just for the opportunity to get in the door and get you a proposal. You probably have similar companies in your area. (or if you get your friend to remote in, they can probably tell you in just a couple minutes if the server is doing anything else you should be aware of.)

If your company has trouble maintaining it's equipment you might also consider cloud offerings. You probably don't need anything as advanced as AWS. I believe Peachtree and Solidworks PDM have cloud offerings and cloud file shares like dropbox are a dime a dozen. If you are migrating email to the cloud already, gsuite or 365 are your most likely candidates and both offer integrated file sharing solutions. It's obviously more expensive month to month but your boss never has to worry about upgrading again and can avoid the large upfront cost of replacing the server. Your Remote workers would probably appreciate not being slowed down by working over the VPN as well.

coynatha said:

Before I got here the only way ANY hardware was upgraded is if it failed or was broken on accident. (dropped Laptops for example)

Click to expand...

Now it REALLY sounds like my prior job!

Sulphademus said:

Now it REALLY sounds like my prior job!

Click to expand...

Our office mom/secretary/accountant has spent almost all of her 11 years here on a Dual Core i3 w/ 4GB of ram on a single 23" 1080p monitor. I just recently finished updating her to a Ryzen 5 3600X, 16GB, NVMe rig w/ Dual 24" 1200p IPS monitors. Her boot time went from 30-45 minutes to 30 seconds.
I swear she sits at her desk with nothing to do half the time now, because she already got all her work done for the day.

My whole thread might be moot now. I was telling the boss yesterday I was gonna pop the top on the server to get a good look at everything, and pull all the details in for a drive upgrade. Now he wants to sit down and discuss capital investments and what we need to move forward. "Should we just buy a NEW server?"

Uh duh.

Did a couple CD runs this morning. Similar results on the D: partition. Nobody here, so should be next to zero traffic on the server. Sloooow. I have no idea what it's doing, but mysql.exe has the disk activity pegged at 75-125MBs almost constant, so these benchmarks are skewed a bit.

So here's the new server that's been purchased and is on the way apparently. I'm really disappointed to see a SINGLE spinner drive for our storage. Image attached. I mean...I don't know what the plan is if that drive dies. I don't know that there is one.

That's disappointing. At least they got the H740P card so you can add additional drives for RAID.
16 GB RAM is pretty abysmal as well, especially if it's a single DIMM. That CPU has a 6-channel memory controller, and with one DIMM it'll be running in 1-channel mode.
Hopefully they got the iDRAC Enterprise as well.
Combined with the part where the server was likely overpriced, overall it's just a bit sad. Hopefully there are some quantity numbers missing from the memory and hard drive line items.
Plus, never forget that even if there is another hard drive in there, RAID is not a form of backup.

Dual Power supply and single hard drive with 16 GB RAM? That server config is all types of fucked. If you are responsible for the network/server infrastructure I'd be pissed if someone just bought a server without consulting you and basically said, "here's a server that Blake from Dell sales told me to buy, make it work". Also, I would never suggest any type of homebrew server for a business. If you leave for any reason and they have a problem they are left with no official line of support, and the new IT person has no ref docs, or official support to work with, that does not bode well for you. What if the motherboard goes tits up? Consumer boards go out of stock/production all the time. Would you be able to just drop another consumer level board in and not have driver issues, etc? If you go with a vendor like Dell you can typically get replacement parts much easier (not necessarily cheap, but easy).. need a motherboard for a 3 year old system, no problem they can overnight ship you a drop in replacement. Building your own server for the business makes you look like a cheap hack in the long run.

Reading this thread makes me cringe. The real question is what type of data backup do they have? If they're going to rely on a server with a single hard drive they're going to need it....

If I was in your position I'd do two things:

1. Write a written letter outlining the deficiencies, the risks of those deficiencies, and your recommendations to remedy them. Do this now, as in stop reading this post and come back after to finish it up level of right now. You did that? Good, now save a copy of that letter for your own records. While it's your job to educate and make recommendations (assuming you are the IT staff), the business owners/management ultimately are free to make shit decisions, but you should make it so they can't pin the result of those decisions on you when the single-hard-drive-server chickens come home to roost.
2. I'd look for another company to work for pronto. No need to be part of this shit-fest.