Cities protesting 5g

Darth Ender said:
In the future, where every device is connected (and they will be) Some may be ones you want to work but dont want to pay for the 5g service, so you connect them to your lan. Now, you can firewall those just fine, but you have no visibility into what it's doing on it's 5g connection you're not paying for. Most likely it will still be connected via that connection and open security holes into your lan, bypass servers you're blocking etc.




You can't when the modem the device has doesn't connect to anything you own. It connects to a cell tower.



most 5g marketing material talk about a future where your home is 5g, everything is 5g and there is no wifi etc. Obviously that's not fully possible everywhere, but it's not a stretch at all for companies to use 5g to circumvent the tracking issues they have with NAT and other user control devices. So while they may even still use your home network if you set it up to do it's primary activities, if they have 5g modems, it will also likely maintain a 5g connection to fall back on if it encounters a problem (you're firewalling some server it wants ) and to provide direct access to the device for remote management/access.
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yeah you can... just do not use stock systems those devices come in. In most cases you can find nix systems for those cpu's. But i don't think you have right to complain if you are using those mobile devices.
 
On a side note, remember when the TSA used backscatter machines which blasted you with ionizing radiation before they made the switch to the millimeter wave length scanners? How much faith do you have in our government that those machines were always calibrated properly when they can't even keep lead or PFAS out of our water supplies?
 
mikeo said:
On a side note, remember when the TSA used backscatter machines which blasted you with ionizing radiation before they made the switch to the millimeter wave length scanners? How much faith do you have in our government that those machines were always calibrated properly when they can't even keep lead or PFAS out of our water supplies?
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Don't forget the put fluoride in the schools water just like the Nazis did you the jew's water
 
cyklondx said:
yeah you can... just do not use stock systems those devices come in. In most cases you can find nix systems for those cpu's. But i don't think you have right to complain if you are using those mobile devices.
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I'm not sure what you're referring to. I'm not talking about mobile devices for one. Two, there is no user servicable parts in most consumer electronics. You wont have the option of installing your own OS to your tv or garage door or home security device etc. Even if you did manage to root a device without falling afoul of anti-hacking laws, the modem is often treated as a black box that he OS can't even really see directly. It runs it's own OS and it's own connections to the rest of the system (at least it does on current day mobile devices). So you would still be opening up device security outside of your firewall just by having these radio's powered on doing whatever they're doing without your oversight. Sure, that's better than nothing, but most things and even tech savy people wont take the time or effort required to circumvent and root every 5g enabled device and then adapt/build the software to replace their stock system. That's just ridiculous.


I look at 5g as a way for companies to get the final "mile" complete in their control over the products you think you're buying. A future where they can monitor, disable, downgrade, and force you to pay by subscription for by making sure your device is always connected. That kind of dystopia isn't very practical right now but in a future blanketed by wireless connection that can reach basically everywhere, it becomes a very attractive option that most businesses wont want to avoid. And if everyone does it, the consumer will have little choice in the matter.
 
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Darth Ender said:
even tech savy people wont take the time or effort required to circumvent and root every 5g enabled device and then adapt/build the software to replace their stock system. That's just ridiculous.
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it may be ridiculous, but if ppl buy it - then you are part of the problem; tech savy ppl whom will crack/reverse engineer always appear. Sure 'old legends' go away, new unskilled ones come in, but as i mentioned the war is lost. The war was psychological in most cases, and its lost. can't change it, i love you being butthurt you deserve it as many other consumers of this garbage.
 
You do realize 5g barely exists and the world where all these home devices come with them hasn't been created yet.

The world where everything is "smart" and there are no more options for offline or "dumb" devices doesn't exist yet.

I think you're mixing up fantasy future what-if's with history. Or using a very very vague and loose definition of "lost" and "was" and "war" is. You can think it's inevitable and we'll lose it eventually. That sounds more reasonable and less like you're a crazy person who thinks they time traveled.

edit: to be clear, since it seems clarification is needed. The entire thread is about people debating the merits of whether to buy into a 5g connected world or not. Because, and this is important, that world doesn't yet exist. So, it's hard to be butt hurt over buying something and contributing to a problem I say i have with it when the products dont even exist to be purchased yet.
 
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cyklondx said:
it may be ridiculous, but if ppl buy it - then you are part of the problem; tech savy ppl whom will crack/reverse engineer always appear. Sure 'old legends' go away, new unskilled ones come in, but as i mentioned the war is lost. The war was psychological in most cases, and its lost. can't change it, i love you being butthurt you deserve it as many other consumers of this garbage.
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in other words you can't fix stupid.

Sure there is very small risk in being blasted with radio waves, but how many of these "cell phones cause cancer people" are willing to go without there cell phones?
 
GoodBoy said:
Never said it was (one and the same)?



This doesn't mean someone's brain isn't possibly sensitive to the radiation, which they in turn might perceive as pain. Never said it was "cooking" them to the degree that a Microwave oven does. But the fact that electromagnetic radiation causes observable effects in biological matter (Meat cooking in microwave) demonstrates that it is also probably happening on a much smaller scale from other forms of electromagnetic energy. This is what they might be able to pick up on.
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https://www.newsweek.com/2016/07/08/electromagnetic-hypersensitivity-wifi-allergies-474404.html

Wifi Allergies It's Grade-A horseshit, and you know it.

It's most likely untreated mental health issues (of course there's nothing wrong with my PERFECT ANGEL's MENTAL HEALTH, why do you ask?). Most of these kids kill themselves before any real diagnosis is made, and the rumor perpetuates (because the parents know for sure!). Depression can do strange things to your body.

Of course, they will never mention if, after turning off Wifi in her own home, if her daughter stopped getting headaches over summer vacation, because obviously The Parents already made up their minds.

Since Placebo Effect is real and scientifically tested, if you believe yourself to be sick, then you can make the symptoms happen. Or your subconscious shame makes ills happen.

I stopped Sweating (in it's entirety) due to anxiety. I was perpetually overheated (and thus never falling asleep) until I started talking to those around me about what kept me up at nights. The body is just as capable of manifesting your other mental ills/shame as pain.
 
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I wouldn't characterize it as an allergy.

Agree that placebo effect is real (another manifestation of mind over matter imho), and of course mental illness is real.

Those wouldn't mean that there isn't something to this "hypersensitivity". Like I originally stated, I wouldn't just outright dismiss it.
 
dany man said:
in other words you can't fix stupid.

Sure there is very small risk in being blasted with radio waves, but how many of these "cell phones cause cancer people" are willing to go without there cell phones?
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To get a cancer you will need ionization to occur to damage dna, and it just doesn't do yet.

Best thing thats documented that it causes system to create less melatonin. less by how much? no clue, every body behaves differently, and generates different amounts of melatonin. Not to mention you can grab some melatonin pills.
 
GoodBoy said:
I wouldn't characterize it as an allergy.

Agree that placebo effect is real (another manifestation of mind over matter imho), and of course mental illness is real.

Those wouldn't mean that there isn't something to this "hypersensitivity". Like I originally stated, I wouldn't just outright dismiss it.
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Point me to a real study, or there's nothing to talk about here, except your own grade-A.

We've had POWERFUL regular transmissions at Wifi frequencies for 50 years now, after the popularization of low-cost Microwave Ovens (that are never perfectly shielded, so likely output the same or slightly higher power than an access point)
.
There have been pretty regular studies on the effect of low-level radiation, and none have shown any detriments.

Check here for a case where directed microwave radiation transmission at the US Embassy in Moscow FOR TWENTY FIVE YEARS AT HIGHER-THAN CURRENT POWER LEVELS had no notable health impacts.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3509929/

And the Havana Syndrome? More imagined bullshit, caused by idiot employees hearing super-loud crickets, and over-reacting!

https://www.npr.org/sections/health...ence-that-u-s-diplomats-in-cuba-were-attacked

REPEAT AFTER ME THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS MICROWAVE SENSITIVITY, only HYPOCHONDRIACs pretending.

THEY CAN BE PRETTY CONVINCING, if the Havana Syndome BS is anything to go by.

Those who are self-described with EHS report adverse reactions to electromagnetic fields at intensities well below the maximum levels permitted by international radiation safety standards. The majority of provocation trials to date have found that such claimants are unable to distinguish between exposure and non-exposure to electromagnetic fields.[2][3] A systematic review of medical research in 2011 found no convincing scientific evidence for symptoms being caused by electromagnetic fields.[2] Since then, several double-blind experiments have shown that people who report electromagnetic hypersensitivity are unable to detect the presence of electromagnetic fields and are as likely to report ill health following a sham exposure as they are following exposure to genuine electromagnetic fields, suggesting the cause in these cases to be the nocebo effect.[4][5][6]
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_hypersensitivity
 
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all caps =! correct

And I do not doubt that for some it is in their heads.

A few experiments isn't enough to convince me it is nothing though. What frequencies did they use? What power levels? One person might only be sensitive to a small frequency range that only overlaps the top end of say the wifi spectrum.

Until I know more about how thorough those tests were, I am not willing to just outright dismiss it. Yell all you want though.. but you might get your blood pressure checked.
 
GoodBoy said:
all caps =! correct

And I do not doubt that for some it is in their heads.

A few experiments isn't enough to convince me it is nothing though. What frequencies did they use? What power levels? One person might only be sensitive to a small frequency range that only overlaps the top end of say the wifi spectrum.

Until I know more about how thorough those tests were, I am not willing to just outright dismiss it. Yell all you want though.. but you might get your blood pressure checked.
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You wouldn't believe me even if I posted them.

Have fun never believing in science.
 
GoodBoy said:
all caps =! correct

And I do not doubt that for some it is in their heads.

A few experiments isn't enough to convince me it is nothing though. What frequencies did they use? What power levels? One person might only be sensitive to a small frequency range that only overlaps the top end of say the wifi spectrum.

Until I know more about how thorough those tests were, I am not willing to just outright dismiss it. Yell all you want though.. but you might get your blood pressure checked.
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how about we stick for what we have proof?

We do not have proof it causes cancer. We only have proof waves can cause cancer when ionization occurs, 24–86 GHz signals at its specified 5g limits ( wattage and amp) does not cause ionization. The higher frequency the less we need to stop it also faster it looses the power.

// you are likly quicker to get cancer with 30Hz ELF
 
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Why would anyone want a 5g connected light bulb or similar device? The sales pitch on these things sounds like one of those old 50's Home of the Future videos.

Does it cause cancer? Maybe, maybe not. The cell carriers have to try and remain relevant. They adopt new services so you have to buy new devices to work on them while they shut off the old service. Honestly, they don't care if it is safe. If it is shown to be bad and cause problems they will get a minor slap on the wrist, and pass the fine down to the customers. None of the responsible parties will be held accountable and life will continue on.

End result is, doesn't matter what you want. The politicians will sell you out as usual and line their pockets along the way, the tech companies get what they want and the population will move on to the next outrage of the moment.
 
cyklondx said:
To get a cancer you will need ionization to occur to damage dna, and it just doesn't do yet.

Best thing thats documented that it causes system to create less melatonin. less by how much? no clue, every body behaves differently, and generates different amounts of melatonin. Not to mention you can grab some melatonin pills.
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Not true in the least. Cancer is the product of several things.

Ionizing is just one.
Cytosine methylation from smoking.
UV thiamine dimers from the sun.
Sodium Nitrate from deli meats can cause the formation Nitroso which is a powerful free radical.
Environmental chemicals can also cause DNA damage
Then we have electromagnetic heating which can denature loosely associated nucleotides like thymine and adenine bonds which only have two pi bonds holding thier structure together. The problem is that dna polymerase can make a mistake by inserting the wrong base in the right place and when that dna is expressed you get an immmortal cell that leads to a tumor.

Cancer has hundreds of ways of proliferating and our bodies are profoundly capable of cancer abatement but not under duress of environment, foods, chemicals, and then toss sub dermal millimeter wave thermal heating as another issue.

I'm a cellular biologist and a chemist and I assure you that you can get cancer in ways you never imagined.

Ionizing radiation should be the least of your fears in our modern world.

The fear I present is the onslaught of 5g millimeter waves as a constant negative influence on your dna. Again fracture dna enough and your repair mechanism can eventually toss the wrong nucleotide in there making the cell cancerous.

Our swest glands actually make the world's most perfect helicoil antenna for 5g mm wave frequencies and their harmonics.

Im also amateur radio licensed and have studied wavelengths and harmonics in great detail. For instance on example, 7mhz, 14mhz, 28mhz etc... are all harmonics and an antenna built for 7000khz can receive with great results frequencies at 28000khz.

Our eccrine glands are perfect 25, 50, 60, 100ghz etc... harmonic antennas that absorb and thermally distribute these energies.

Ionic ....haha... I laugh at little old ionic. Least of my concern unless you work on uranium daily.
 
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tangoseal said:
Not true in the least. Cancer is the product of several things.

Ionizing is just one.
Cytosine methylation from smoking.
UV thiamine dimers from the sun.
Sodium Nitrate from deli meats can cause the formation Nitroso which is a powerful free radical.
Environmental chemicals can also cause DNA damage
Then we have electromagnetic heating which can denature loosely associated nucleotides like thymine and adenine bonds which only have two pi bonds holding thier structure together. The problem is that dna polymerase can make a mistake by inserting the wrong base in the right place and when that dna is expressed you get an immmortal cell that leads to a tumor.

Cancer has hundreds of ways of proliferating and our bodies are profoundly capable of cancer abatement but not under duress of environment, foods, chemicals, and then toss sub dermal millimeter wave thermal heating as another issue.

I'm a cellular biologist and a chemist and I assure you that you can get cancer in ways you never imagined.

Ionizing radiation should be the least of your fears in our modern world.

The fear I present is the onslaught of 5g millimeter waves as a constant negative influence on your dna. Again fracture dna enough and your repair mechanism can eventually toss the wrong nucleotide in there making the cell cancerous.

Our swest glands actually make the world's most perfect helicoil antenna for 5g mm wave frequencies and their harmonics.

Im also amateur radio licensed and have studied wavelengths and harmonics in great detail. For instance on example, 7mhz, 14mhz, 28mhz etc... are all harmonics and an antenna built for 7000khz can receive with great results frequencies at 28000khz.

Our eccrine glands are perfect 25, 50, 60, 100ghz etc... harmonic antennas that absorb and thermally distribute these energies.

Ionic ....haha... I laugh at little old ionic. Least of my concern unless you work on uranium daily.
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Well since we were talking about 5G that's all i was referring to. I'd like to ask this: what does it take to stop 86GHz signal with most powerful antenna (metro cell) goes only up to 20000mW with 1volt.
Do tell me if it actually can penetrate human skull or more than couple mm under your skin. Those signals are going to be even more fragile in real world. I think longer wavelengths with higher amp and wattage is more dangerous than this.
 
thats not a problem operating range is far higher, and all that gov has to do is to exclude allowed band in US. Its been done many many times... even with normal 802.11 different countries have different channels - and legal requirements not to use specific frequencies. Its common practice.
 
dany man said:
But wouldn't 5g need more power to transmit over a longer distance unlike 2/3/4g ?
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Nope. See, today we have two networks with multiple bands running, 4G and 3G. When 5G is added, 3G goes away, but 4G will remain, so in most cases you'll just be using 4G even after 5G is rolled out. 5G will be used to cover high density/high traffic locations where it's suitable. So you will get 5G when you go to the football stadium to watch a collage or pro game where it will do a great job of handling so many users and all their traffic while it also takes pressure of the 4G network servicing the same area.

5G won't replace 4G, it will be in addition too 4G in areas where it makes sense to deploy it. Furthermore, 5G repeaters can be used in suitable locations where again, there is heavy traffic like an auditorium type of classroom at a university or large companies that have the big floors of cubicles, 60+ users in a single room. More equipment for the service provider to sell and maintain.

The streets and roadways in the big cities will probably get reasonable coverage from a bunch of towers deployed in a nice grid or along the length of a freeway but I would only expect that kind of coverage if the 4G is still loaded down.
 
Darth Ender said:
In the future, where every device is connected (and they will be) ......................................
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They will be if there is enough money in it. No one has convinced me that the great bright future of a fully connected world will actually pay the profits and meet the "is it worth it" line. All the more reason to limit governments so they can't just take what they need to do these things.

It doesn't matter how unsecure a device is if it's an end node, you can always block it from your side if you know how.

The problem that I have with these predictions you are talking about is that it ignores that people have choice, that demand drives markets and what will sell and what won't. RFID was going to be all in our faces until people got scared of it, now they buy RFID Shielded wallets and cell phone cases.

Another issue with the "entire world is connected" concept is that IPV4 won't support it, and IPV6 never actually was a working and manageable solution which is why it isn't being used anywhere seriously. Until they have addressed that issue, the world is not large enough.
 
ipv6 is certainly used all over the place, Your phone is ipv6. Anything using 5g will be ipv6. The only thing that hasn't fully adopted ipv6 is the last mile to people's homes and their local networks.

rfid shields and such isn't evidence that people's choice matters. It's people adapting to the fact that the opposite is true, that despite people not wanting something, the market is only providing one option and the people are having to adapt around it. Even the most paranoid tech savvy person is going to be hard pressed avoid the situation when it's everywhere ... and it will certainly make monetary sense for companies to put it everywhere because every always connected device is a source of information that can be sold, a subscription plan that can be charged for recurring income, and a point of control that they can leverage to force you to buy a replacement or update with new / changed features. That's far more valuable than a one and done object. As the costs to manufacturer and power such devices fall, it will creep into more and more devices.

When the services you do want are tied to the ones you dont your choice becomes do without or succumb. That's not a legitimate choice. You'd think in a free market someone would be able to come in and sell a product that has all of what people want and none of what they dont, but that's not how the world works. The products that tie the two together can be subsidized so they can be cheaper, they'll be trademarked and patented, they'll be sold by well known brands so they'll be marketed better, they'll be entrenched in the market so they can shape and enforce that barrier to entry is too great for most competitors and they'll convince the public that this is all good for them so the public wont even be aware they have a better option or should think they deserve one.

Demand doesn't drive markets alone. It's one cog in a machine that is often tilted and manipulated by conglomerates, monopolies, interest groups that fund laws to prop up business models, among others.
 
lcpiper said:
They will be if there is enough money in it. No one has convinced me that the great bright future of a fully connected world will actually pay the profits and meet the "is it worth it" line. All the more reason to limit governments so they can't just take what they need to do these things.

It doesn't matter how unsecure a device is if it's an end node, you can always block it from your side if you know how.

The problem that I have with these predictions you are talking about is that it ignores that people have choice, that demand drives markets and what will sell and what won't. RFID was going to be all in our faces until people got scared of it, now they buy RFID Shielded wallets and cell phone cases.

Another issue with the "entire world is connected" concept is that IPV4 won't support it, and IPV6 never actually was a working and manageable solution which is why it isn't being used anywhere seriously. Until they have addressed that issue, the world is not large enough.
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In practice nodes aren't that much better secured than hosts; and in most cases devices are 'trusted' signed, figure out encryption/cert and you have full access to the system (they are fundamentally insecure because people without proper knowledge are making them, or deem it unnessecary). RFID didn't have to pick up, as people drag their phones with them everywhere, those phones today have more features than RFID could ever provide. (why bother with gimping yourself with RFID technology, while you have full video-audio-fingerprint-gps-youname it scanner; and ppl will buy it for you, and they'll love it - and you for it.

Darth Ender said:
ipv6 is certainly used all over the place, Your phone is ipv6. Anything using 5g will be ipv6. The only thing that hasn't fully adopted ipv6 is the last mile to people's homes and their local networks.
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Actually its the other way around. Core/backbone is running on ultra expensive - older hardware, they are slowly phased out, upgraded so they can support ivp6. While access layer is typically upgraded first, as its cheapest, then switching layer.
The access or switching layers convert your ipv6 to ipv4 for core networks.

Darth Ender said:
Demand doesn't drive markets alone. It's one cog in a machine that is often tilted and manipulated by conglomerates, monopolies, interest groups that fund laws to prop up business models, among others.
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You are right here at some point, and level; but that only works on corps that can allow themselves to - until they converted the ppl.
 
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Dog stop paying attention to the squirrel.

If anyone wanted to know when the media (yes Fox News too) was distributing BS it would be this topic.

Your average American that is not in the IT field has no clue about 5G or even what 5G is. The only thing that they know about 5G is that AT&t has rebranded their 4G unbeknownst to them as 5G. That's the extent of their knowledge on the technology. Therefore the likelihood of a mass amount of Americans freaking out over 5G and the possibility that it could cause cancer is total and utter b*******.

The reason for the slow rollout of 5G (basically everything 5G) and quintessentially Huawei is the fact that out of all of the manufacturers of modems for 5G none of them are American. That's why Apple doesn't have 5G in its iPhone. Qualcomm just released the spec for 5G just this year so it's at least another year out.

Meanwhile Huawei has 5G in its chips today. And what country does Huawei come from? China. China who dumps majority of its government spending into stem and not the military has been whooping our ass for years. It's gone unnoticed by your average consumer but if you're in tech it's become all too apparent what companies are providing technology 1st and cheaper and it's China not the US.

China with its 1.2 billion people are going to clean our clock financially largely because unfettered capitalism has no direction and corporatism has taken hold. When a CEO gets in the office the main thing that they look to do is to turn a profit. It's not to innovate quite the contrary. Furthermore when you have a country to run just innovating isn't enough. You need to innovate in the proper sector that will allow you to grow based on the resources you have in hand. Our system just doesn't do that. If it has done it it's usually been the result of a grant or low tax rates to force companies to innovate. However our government has been run by idiots for the last four decades or so. therefore the likelihood of us fixing this problem anytime soon is slim to none.

Let's just hope moving forward that the FED doesn't create negative interest rates.
 
lets just hope that their 1.2 billion people can start designing and creating what they manufacturer themselves once they do, rather than steal it.

Regulations and red tape make adopting new wireless tech take longer in the US. Not the source of the country the tech may come from.
 
Darth Ender said:
lets just hope that their 1.2 billion people can start designing and creating what they manufacturer themselves once they do, rather than steal it.

Regulations and red tape make adopting new wireless tech take longer in the US. Not the source of the country the tech may come from.
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Regulations do not prevent you from making the modem. 5G is a backed by a consortium of tech companies from around the world. The standard was completed long ago.

There are only two companies that make competing modems. The first Intel which it bought that company to make 5G modems. Intel is actually pretty bad when it comes to pretty much anything cellular. So that division was sold to Apple.

The second one is Qualcomm. While they finished the standard for 5G a while ago it just creates the proprietary standard around Qualcomm IP blocks they rarely produce chips themselves.

That leaves Samsung which will likely follow right after Huawei or be right in line with launching their 5G line if they haven't already.


With regards to China stealing technology that couldn't be further from the truth. The truth is that we gave it to them. Or more precisely U.S companies did so in order to increase their profits.

If you don't want China to steal from you the answer is simple. Don't move your production there and you probably want some regulation enforced to protect what you have. No regulation means no enforcement. We do have CFIUS but it's underfunded and it's not an open process. Why? Because U.S companies steal IP all the damn time. If the U.S was really serious instead of the B.S trade deals they could have extended CFIUS globally but in all honesty no company really wants that.

Instead U.S companies didn't stop at clothes or toys they kept going back to China for more workers and greater access into their economy. That came at a cost. You can't move technology production somewhere else and have the person building the thing not knowing how to build it. So you teach them. The more work they do over there the cheaper it is over here.

Boeing is a good example since some of the coding was done over in India for the 737 MAX. In fact now even most tech jobs can be outsourced. Trust me it doesn't make the product any better and usually makes it worse.

Any person that works on any technology for a U.S company can take what they learn and change it just enough in order to sell it.

This isn't specific to China again us companies have done it amongst their own for as long as patent law has existed and before then.

Why do you think the United States Patent and Trademark Office was created? It's not because people weren't stealing stuff. Quite the opposite.

In a nutshell U.S companies bet on cheap foreign labor and they lost. Reducing labor costs was an easy way to increase share prices and still remains one of the easiest. But it's not a panacea.
 
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kac77 said:
Regulations do not prevent you from making the modem. 5G is a backed by a consortium of tech companies from around the world. The standard was completed long ago.
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Making the modem isn't prohibited by regulations, sure, but that's not what I said. I said regulations make adopting new wireless tech take longer in the US.

What stops a lot of companies from creating 5g modems are patents. Not technical ability. The reason only a few companies are making 5g modems is because integral patents are held by those companies and nobody else has figured out a way to implement the spec without them.


kac77 said:
With regards to China stealing technology that couldn't be further from the truth. The truth is that we gave it to them. Or more precisely U.S companies did so in order to increase their profits.
...
If you don't want China to steal from you the answer is simple. Don't move your production there and you probably want some regulation enforced to protect what you have. No regulation means no enforcement.
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It seems pretty obvious you want to paint the us companies as both the victim and the criminal while giving china a pass because "what else are they going to do".. I wouldn't take the "boys will be boys" defense and apply it anywhere you want to be taken seriously.

In any case, you acknowledge that china is steeling tech wherever they can. That only works so long as more advanced companies are doing business with them. If as you previously said, those companies get steamrolled or put out of business by china's overwhelming economy then who will they steal from to advance their tech? Do we even have evidence of what can be produced when they're not ? Or was your argument that they'll just buy all the world's companies and absorb innovation that way?

(edit, and while corporate espionage is not exclusive to china nor does it not happen while in the US, there is a difference between how china encourages it and how chinese companies are related to the national government and ownership. Such things dont exist in us based companies, which can be owned and operated by any foreign nationals.)

I'm not really worried about china's 1.2 billion people taking over anymore than I'm worried about India's.
 
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Darth Ender said:
Making the modem isn't prohibited by regulations, sure, but that's not what I said. I said regulations make adopting new wireless tech take longer in the US.

What stops a lot of companies from creating 5g modems are patents. Not technical ability. The reason only a few companies are making 5g modems is because integral patents are held by those companies and nobody else has figured out a way to implement the spec without them.
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The number one patent owner for 5G is Huawei followed by Nokia. Both of those companies are not American. Nokia by the way has already released a 5G handset.

In addition you can't complain about patent enforcement at the same time wanting it to prevent China companies like Huawei from producing chipsets. It's either one or the other.

Darth Ender said:
It seems pretty obvious you want to paint the us companies as both the victim and the criminal while giving china a pass because "what else are they going to do".. I wouldn't take the "boys will be boys" defense and apply it anywhere you want to be taken seriously.

In any case, you acknowledge that china is steeling tech wherever they can. That only works so long as more advanced companies are doing business with them. If as you previously said, those companies get steamrolled or put out of business by china's overwhelming economy then who will they steal from to advance their tech? Do we even have evidence of what can be produced when they're not ? Or was your argument that they'll just buy all the world's companies and absorb innovation that way?
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China now buys most of it's tech. That's what CFIUS is there for. To prevent tech from being bought that the US believes will jeopardize it's own standing too adversely. So much for free markets huh?

I don't paint the U.S as anything. It is what it is. Us companies moved production to China and India in order to reduce labor costs. This is a fact not something I made up.

Darth Ender said:
(edit, and while corporate espionage is not exclusive to china nor does it not happen while in the US, there is a difference between how china encourages it and how chinese companies are related to the national government and ownership. Such things dont exist in us based companies, which can be owned and operated by any foreign nationals.)

I'm not really worried about china's 1.2 billion people taking over anymore than I'm worried about India's.
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How is it different? Remember what Microsoft did to Nokia? There's Facebook, Apple, and many more. It's hardly different at all. Especially when I comes to Microsoft.

Let's take the Microsoft browser as an example. Microsoft tried for years since the creation of their first browser to not only force people to use their browser but they also were accused many times of stealing technology in order to improve their own.

Decades later what did they end up doing? Basically using chromium as the foundation for their next browser. Why? Because their own browser even with all of the craziness that they put the world through they still lacked the internal knowledge to create a better browser on their own.

That's just their browser. Microsoft has had to use technology and even steal patents from other companies in order to survive yet they've never been broken up and this finds that they've ever had to pay have always been let's just say easy to handle.

With regards to being afraid of China or India, I'm not either. Basically the only thing that happens is that the us gets a bruised ego. In the long-term the countries around the world will create a trade deal to unify the countries together and then unify behind a common currency.
 
kac77 said:
The number one patent owner for 5G is Huawei followed by Nokia. Both of those companies are not American. Nokia by the way has already released a 5G handset.

In addition you can't complain about patent enforcement at the same time wanting it to prevent China companies like Huawei from producing chipsets. It's either one or the other.
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Sure you can. Patents dont make it illegal to steal, that's already illegal. They make it legal to monopolize a tech. Patent infringement against companies are a different type of theft from the court cases regarding trade secrets ...which aren't patented but kept secret from all....which huwei also has legal cases against it for doing repeatedly. The decision a company faces whether or not to pursue a tech in a field controlled by very few parties is has many factors (mostly around money) that goes into it's making. Technical expertise to do it is just one, and usually not the first one considered. Your argument seems to be based on this notion that any company that can make something would make something, but that's not how it works in reality. Most of the time, since the fabrication plants are controlled often by other companies, and there's only a finite number of resources to pursue new products and tech, companies decide to pursue a business deal with another company or abandon the tech altogether even when they could create it themselves.

China now buys most of it's tech. That's what CFIUS is there for. To prevent tech from being bought that the US believes will jeopardize it's own standing too adversely. So much for free markets huh?

I don't paint the U.S as anything. It is what it is. Us companies moved production to China and India in order to reduce labor costs. This is a fact not something I made up.

How is it different? Remember what Microsoft did to Nokia? There's Facebook, Apple, and many more. It's hardly different at all. Especially when I comes to Microsoft.
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The difference is, you can bring evidence and win in court when you have such evidence and the government will rule against either company regardless of their nation of origin because the court doesn't care so long as things are in accordance with the law.

Companies that do business in the us and use US law to protect that business aren't necessarily what you would be able to call a "US business" in the same sense as we're calling Chinese businesses, Chinese. Countries that enforce a nationalization of their private corporations like China does create a defacto cartel that can be steered by a singular will and agenda and can dictate the distribution of one arm of their corporate infrastructure's misdeeds to benefit others to prop up the whole. That's why this chinese company is being singled out so clearly. The fact that they are huge and a direct competitor to some US companies does play a role, but so does the blatant theft from various companies and the way the chinese government so far allows such behavior so long as it benefits the whole. Only looking to punish chinese companies when it hurts their business as a whole. Since our stupid president is who he is and has done what he's done, China can't punish Huwei even if this has damaged their techno-economic reputation with other countries since now it's about nation-level chest thumping.



Let's take the Microsoft browser as an example. Microsoft tried for years since the creation of their first browser to not only force people to use their browser but they also were accused many times of stealing technology in order to improve their own.

Decades later what did they end up doing? Basically using chromium as the foundation for their next browser. Why? Because their own browser even with all of the craziness that they put the world through they still lacked the internal knowledge to create a better browser on their own.
Click to expand...

inter-corporate espionage is everywhere. This is not an example of the US government with deep ties to a company willfully encouraging that company to steal from other countries via either direct help or inaction once discovered.

You're also skipping all of the details surrounding the situation you described. The "better" browser doesn't win in an environment where you control the market. As the first half of your example shows, explorer was hardly the better browser but becaues it was free and came with every windows install everywhere and windows was everywhere, it was just less work for consumers to use it rather than go download something else, especially when all of microsoft's programs would still use explorer when you used any api's that opened a webpage via their windows framework. Now chrome used the same playbook. Android grew too fast for microsoft to counter and now chrome, which is bundled with android is everywhere. It doesn't hurt that chromium is open source and faster than most of their competitors, sure. But to say that the browser wars were won on merit ignores the fact that the top browsers are where they are because they controlled the market, not because people deliberately picked those browsers over others.

That's just their browser. Microsoft has had to use technology and even steal patents from other companies in order to survive yet they've never been broken up and this finds that they've ever had to pay have always been let's just say easy to handle.

With regards to being afraid of China or India, I'm not either. Basically the only thing that happens is that the us gets a bruised ego. In the long-term the countries around the world will create a trade deal to unify the countries together and then unify behind a common currency.
Click to expand...

That's some star trek level optimism ... I'm fairly certain we'll always be in a state of war with eachother and constantly form tribal relationships based around differences that will always be inherent to the fact that people that live far apart will always grow apart and that the general public will always be ignorant and fearful because they will never be allowed to achieve a level of wealth that makes them secure because that means the super rich can't be as super rich.
 
Darth Ender said:
Sure you can. Patents dont make it illegal to steal, that's already illegal. They make it legal to monopolize a tech. Patent infringement against companies are a different type of theft from the court cases regarding trade secrets ...which aren't patented but kept secret from all....which huwei also has legal cases against it for doing repeatedly. The decision a company faces whether or not to pursue a tech in a field controlled by very few parties is has many factors (mostly around money) that goes into it's making. Technical expertise to do it is just one, and usually not the first one considered. Your argument seems to be based on this notion that any company that can make something would make something, but that's not how it works in reality. Most of the time, since the fabrication plants are controlled often by other companies, and there's only a finite number of resources to pursue new products and tech, companies decide to pursue a business deal with another company or abandon the tech altogether even when they could create it themselves.
Click to expand...
Patent infrigement is literally what the WTO works off of. If Huawei really infringed you would see them in court. But you haven't. Why? Because they would have won that's why. That's why everything is in the court of public opinion and not anywhere else. Do you really believe that if Huawei took tech illegally that no one would have brought a court case against them?

5G dangerious? Hardly


Darth Ender said:
Companies that do business in the us and use US law to protect that business aren't necessarily what you would be able to call a "US business" in the same sense as we're calling Chinese businesses, Chinese. Countries that enforce a nationalization of their private corporations like China does create a defacto cartel that can be steered by a singular will and agenda and can dictate the distribution of one arm of their corporate infrastructure's misdeeds to benefit others to prop up the whole. That's why this chinese company is being singled out so clearly. The fact that they are huge and a direct competitor to some US companies does play a role, but so does the blatant theft from various companies and the way the chinese government so far allows such behavior so long as it benefits the whole. Only looking to punish chinese companies when it hurts their business as a whole. Since our stupid president is who he is and has done what he's done, China can't punish Huwei even if this has damaged their techno-economic reputation with other countries since now it's about nation-level chest thumping.
Click to expand...

CFIUS literally works at the behest of US companies. Just because we call things "private" isn't necessarily so. Sure we privatize gains but we routinely socialize negative impacts against U.S companies.




Darth Ender said:
inter-corporate espionage is everywhere. This is not an example of the US government with deep ties to a company willfully encouraging that company to steal from other countries via either direct help or inaction once discovered.
Click to expand...

Huh? The governernment does this all of the time under the guise that really a private company did it. There are tons of examples of this.

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2013/06/verizon-nsa-response/314517/

25 Cutting Edge Firms Funded By The CIA


Darth Ender said:
You're also skipping all of the details surrounding the situation you described. The "better" browser doesn't win in an environment where you control the market. As the first half of your example shows, explorer was hardly the better browser but becaues it was free and came with every windows install everywhere and windows was everywhere, it was just less work for consumers to use it rather than go download something else, especially when all of microsoft's programs would still use explorer when you used any api's that opened a webpage via their windows framework. Now chrome used the same playbook. Android grew too fast for microsoft to counter and now chrome, which is bundled with android is everywhere. It doesn't hurt that chromium is open source and faster than most of their competitors, sure. But to say that the browser wars were won on merit ignores the fact that the top browsers are where they are because they controlled the market, not because people deliberately picked those browsers over others.
Click to expand...

You're ignoring that in captialism the lines of association are not often clear or understood. When it comes to Google it was literally started using governemnt grants. If you think they equally don't have pull in washington then you aren't paying attention.

Darth Ender said:
the general public will always be ignorant and fearful because they will never be allowed to achieve a level of wealth that makes them secure because that means the super rich can't be as super rich.
Click to expand...

Now this I agree with fully.
 
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