The state of VR - Lost it's steam?

RazorWind said:
Cockpit games.

I've put in about 800 hours with Elite Dangerous, according to Steam, and of that, 99% of it was VR. ED's biggest fault is that it's an MMO, and it thus comes with a semi-unnecessary volume of grind. There is fun to be had, but it's almost work getting to it.

Imagine, though, a VR X-Wing vs Tie Fighter game. The original was way ahead of its time in the sense that it was built around the prospect of multiplayer before that was practical for everyone. It would totally work, now, though, and it seems like something that could be made E-sports friendly.
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The thing with Elite is the fact it's basically a "Space Pilot" sim...and all the boring grind that comes with it. That being said, I fucking love that game.
 
Lifelite said:
The thing with Elite is the fact it's basically a "Space Pilot" sim...and all the boring grind that comes with it. That being said, I fucking love that game.
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The thing that really boggles my mind is that the deathmatch fighter mode is SO much fun, yet nobody plays it. :(

The fighters aren't terribly useful in the main game, but they're a blast to fly in VR. I wish the whole game could just be that.
 
Lifelite said:
Fucking queue times...UGH
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Indeed. I've actually gotten into a match exactly one time, and it was fun as hell. Maybe because I absolutely wrecked my singular opponent. :D I don't understand why no one plays it.

I hesitate to try the team modes because... Generally not having to deal with people is one of the things I like most about Elite. That said, my CMDR name is TheChafing. I'd be totally down to play the CQC mode, if you care to team up.
 
Hagrid said:
GPU's need to be much faster. You can tweak the HMD stuff but in the end, the GPU needs more power.
The Pimax 8K X is native 4K each eye, but they can't get it to run at a rate good enough since the GPU does not have the HP.
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I only recently got to learn this the hard way, as I'm still using the same GTX 980 that I had shortly before I got the Rift CV1 in 2016 - back when it cost $600, and another $200 for the Touch controllers, and another $80 per IR camera sensor. Yeah, I'm kicking myself hard in hindsight.

It was adequate enough for a lot of VR stuff, but DCS World is hell on my framerate. Can't even maintain 45 FPS doing a free flight in the AV8B Harrier, let alone doing anything interesting like aerial refueling or blowing up stuff.

Then I got to bring home an RTX 2080 for diagnostics purposes, popped it in... holy shit. I'm talking double the framerate here, night and day, not quite a solid 90 FPS, but consistently above 80 FPS without changing a single other thing in my system. Too bad it wasn't mine to keep.

Thing is, I don't have $700 to blow on one graphics card (I only paid $315 shipped for the GTX 980 back in late 2015, when you'd normally only get a 970 for that much), and most people aren't like me, already packing a desktop with an i7-4770K jacked up to 4.6 GHz or better, 32 GB of DDR3-2400, and a PCIe slot ready to accept a decent GPU. Most people are stuck on laptops with integrated graphics and no Thunderbolt 3.0, and "VR ready" laptops are still firmly in the $1,000+ range. That is what limits VR adoption for the sort of AAA gaming we're used to.

And of course, the Rift CV1 still only provides 1080x1200 per eye, a lot of which is wasted on the periphery of each eye buffer. I dare not imagine the kind of GPU load it'd take to do 4K or even 8K per eye. VR's high-framerate, low-latency requirements make flat 4K gaming look like easy mode by comparison.

GoldenTiger said:
Fuzzy_3D said:
I'd say that depends on the game. For Elite Dangerous, I had a hard time even playing it flat screen after trying it in VR. Space/Flight/Racing sims in VR with appropriate controllers make going back to "2D" seem like the proverbial poor cousin.
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Cockpit sims were the reason I went all-in on the Rift even before the Touch controllers were released, and I was not disappointed.

In fact, I can't even go back to Falcon BMS because while it's still a solid modern jet sim, DCS supports VR and the extensively-modified Falcon 4.0 engine from the DX7 era doesn't. It's the difference between looking at a picture of a cockpit, and being IN the cockpit. You get a sense of scale, can practically reach out and touch stuff inside, and VR HMD tracking systems generally don't have the FOV limitations of a TrackIR setup (which often had my view spazzing out like crazy if one of my three tracking points exceeded the FOV).

Getting a decent force-feedback wheel and DiRT Rally is also a great way to get your inner gearhead going without the actual expenses of car ownership, and especially the risk of crashing your expensive, hotrodded rally car and dying in the process. Seeing everything fly by outside your windows on those narrow, treacherous roads, with actual stereo depth perception so you can see just how little room you have to work with, really gets your blood pumping in a way no flat screen could achieve.

I think that's the beauty of VR, really. Yeah, it's expensive to get set up, but still a hell of a lot cheaper than getting a real high-performance car or an actual fighter jet - and if anything goes horribly wrong, just restart!
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RazorWind said:
Cockpit games.
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The old MS game Allegiance was the closest I ever got to that utopian massive space battle with fighters buzzing all around and exploding and capital ships and just unadulterated chaos of war. It only had like what, 36 players, but made battle inevitable in a tight space so it was really fun. I bought a joystick just for that game.

If they could scale that experience up to thousands of players in VR I'd be in my happy place.
 
Factum said:
I have seen VR being promised a lot of times (I think the first time was around 20 years ago):
View attachment 164418

Now I see the same patteren emerge once again...first major publicity, an influx of hardware...and then it kinda dies off again.
The pace of news slows down...then the hardware options slows down...and finally the software written for VR starts to become further and furhter apart.
So I am wondering....have VR come and gone again, like before in the past?

Because I am having a déjà vu-feeling about VR right now...like I have seen this "pattern" before.
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It's has definitely dropped out of the mainstream news.

Mainstream GPU reviews don't bother testing VR performance.

IMO is that it will always be a small niche, never really breaking through.

High novelty factor, but high irritation factor, novelty wears off for most people, irritation doesn't.

I bet a lot of VR rigs are gathering dust 6 months after purchase, much like the pattern described here:

I Am Already Starting To Regret Buying An Oculus Quest
 
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Snowdog said:
It's has definitely dropped out of the mainstream news.

Mainstream GPU reviews don't bother testing VR performance.

IMO is that it will always be a small niche, never really breaking through.

High novelty factor, but high irritation factor, novelty wears off for most people, irritation doesn't.

I bet a lot of VR rigs are gathering dust 6 months after purchase, much like the pattern described here:

I Am Already Starting To Regret Buying An Oculus Quest
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I wonder how many people said that very same thing about an item, and it grew to be used worldwide. Hmmmm.

Also VR is not only for gaming or watching movies. The applications for business and such is growing as well.
 
Hagrid said:
I wonder how many people said that very same thing about an item, and it grew to be used worldwide. Hmmmm.
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Depends if it was something like a novelty entertainment device that had a irritant factor, like 3D TV with 3D glasses, or something that was actually useful.
 
Snowdog said:
It's has definitely dropped out of the mainstream news.

Mainstream GPU reviews don't bother testing VR performance.
IMO is that it will always be a small niche, never really breaking through.
High novelty factor, but high irritation factor, novelty wears off for most people, irritation doesn't.
I bet a lot of VR rigs are gathering dust 6 months after purchase, much like the pattern described here:
I Am Already Starting To Regret Buying An Oculus Quest
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Ha! I'm browsing/viewing this on a Quest right now using the Firefox Reality browser that's free with the Quest.
No dust here...
 
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SuperSubZero said:
The old MS game Allegiance was the closest I ever got to that utopian massive space battle with fighters buzzing all around and exploding and capital ships and just unadulterated chaos of war. It only had like what, 36 players, but made battle inevitable in a tight space so it was really fun. I bought a joystick just for that game.

If they could scale that experience up to thousands of players in VR I'd be in my happy place.
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I think some people still play Allegiance today, and it's even up on Steam somewhere, but the community's a bit serious business about it, like having to go through a training program and pass an exam or something before you can join up with the usual groups.

There is a learning curve involved, though, given that it's an RTS/space sim mashup. You still don't see a lot of that today, and Enemy Starfighter - er, House of the Dying Sun is the only other one I've seen that really attempts that fusion, although it's only singleplayer.

As for the multiplayer experience, you may want to keep an eye on Infinity: Battlescape, which seems to have the "massive space battle with fighters and capital ships everywhere" bit down pat, complete with fleets duking it out for control over stations and planets, and plenty of NPC ships to fill in for any low player counts. It's still in the alpha stages, though, and I didn't pledge enough for early access.
 
I bought in to VR late last year. I will say from experience of myself and others it is the future. I have bought 10x more games on Steam in 6 months then I had in a decade all together. ALL VR! The industry loves us.
I waited for a HMD with no screen door effect, no base stations and an affordable price. It was the Samsung Odyssey+ and I do not regret that purchase.
The one thing that holds VR back atm is the GPU price. I choose a RTX2080 as it was the best at what I could afford. That said it cost me $1150 CAD total, while extreme, it was about $200 CAD shy of what they were going for. I am a good shopper. VR isn't going to explode until a GPU/HMD of good quality can be had for $500 total + PC.
I am hopeful for eye tracking that will lower resolution where you aren't focusing and of course wireless. These will be big.
Anyways right now I am enjoying the hell out of it, and those who I introduce it too as their first ever VR experience. The enjoyment and wonder they express is very gratifying for sure.
 
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NamelessPFG said:
As for the multiplayer experience, you may want to keep an eye on Infinity: Battlescape, which seems to have the "massive space battle with fighters and capital ships everywhere" bit down pat, complete with fleets duking it out for control over stations and planets, and plenty of NPC ships to fill in for any low player counts. It's still in the alpha stages, though, and I didn't pledge enough for early access.
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Thank you, I never heard of this game until today.
 
nanotube said:
I wonder if this would work for VR LCD screens:

https://www.cnet.com/news/look-out-oled-hisense-unveils-dual-lcd-tv-tech-aimed-at-lower-price/

It would give you the benefits of OLED (black levels, contrast), and LCD (less screen door effect).
Would your GPU have to drive both screens if this was done?
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I doubt it'd have to drive both layers if that's what you mean, but that's some really neat and novel tech. From the sounds of it, the only drawback is the viewing angle (and tbh I have no idea how viewing angle would play out in a VR scenario, as it seems it wouldn't be a problem at all, but then the lenses come into play and I really have no idea how they'd interact with eachother.) It still seems promising.
 
I kind of like my Valve Index. Resolution and latency are problems that are still largely unresolved but the implications, once the technology becomes good enough, are massive. It will be used for evil, no question about it, but also good. It's just technology. Until we get to the holo deck, VR is going to be it. Who is going to want or need big clunky displays on their desk when they can spawn an arbitrary amount of virtual screens? Almost no one, that's who.

That said, Theater Mode sucks. I love the concept and the way it's done but running regular non vr games in it utterly destroys performance. Quake Live is barely playable at 50 fps or so. Once that's fixed, if ever, and resolution is 4 or 9k per eye, there's no going back.
 
what kind of latency are people people experiencing? I have heard zero complaints about it... except for the above... is it not set up correctly or is it something only a trained eye can notice?
 
Youn said:
what kind of latency are people people experiencing? I have heard zero complaints about it... except for the above... is it not set up correctly or is it something only a trained eye can notice?
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The Index uses LCD screens instead of OLED, so it has a little bit of smearing. Maybe that's what they mean?

The only lag of any kind that I notice with my Vive Pro is when the GPU can't keep up and it starts using reprojection, which is super obvious in the games I play, even with a 2080 Ti and relatively conservative settings.
 
I don't think reality runs at 120 Hz. Everything seems smoother on my old 120 Hz screen. That and my 2500k / 1070 setup can't keep up anymore.
 
VR will never be mainstream for the same reason 3d movies are dieing/dead.

Nobody wants to put on an implement of some kind to experience whatever it is. They just want to see it.

Super annoying to wear headsets and special glasses to use something.
 
OFaceSIG said:
VR will never be mainstream for the same reason 3d movies are dieing/dead.

Nobody wants to put on an implement of some kind to experience whatever it is. They just want to see it.

Super annoying to wear headsets and special glasses to use something.
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What volume is main stream? Hundreds of thousands? Millions?
 
Mainstream is in our case, is us, the pc gamers. I know 2 poeple with VR headsets and I've been building computers since 1989. Guess, what, both of them never touch them anymore so they have areally expensive paperweights. It's a fad! It's stupid, it's the fidget spinner of the entertainment world. Nobody is going to giveAF in 3 years.
 
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kalston said:
, but it's also not very light and not very comfortable yet) .
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I had a VR set back in the 90s that were very light and somewhat comfortable. I have to laugh at today VR sets, they are far bigger and clunkier then some of the sets we had in the 90s
 
yes let's go back to the 90s please

vrheadset.jpg
 
OFaceSIG said:
Mainstream is in our case, is us, the pc gamers. I know 2 poeple with VR headsets and I've been building computers since 1989.
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ok, so you're saying VR isn't popular for the curmudgeons among us... gotcha ;)

but I hear ya on the bulky thing strapped to my head, I don't want it either... I don't like headphones, hats or even sunglasses for similar reasons. if you haven't check out retinal projection systems, they may likely be the answer and don't require anything to really sit on your face?
 
OFaceSIG said:
VR will never be mainstream for the same reason 3d movies are dieing/dead.

Nobody wants to put on an implement of some kind to experience whatever it is. They just want to see it.

Super annoying to wear headsets and special glasses to use something.
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Funny you use the terms nobody and never, but you use things everyday that some people thought would never take off. ;)
 
OFaceSIG said:
Mainstream is in our case, is us, the pc gamers. I know 2 poeple with VR headsets and I've been building computers since 1989. Guess, what, both of them never touch them anymore so they have areally expensive paperweights. It's a fad! It's stupid, it's the fidget spinner of the entertainment world. Nobody is going to giveAF in 3 years.
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I disagree considering they are still selling millions / year.
 
"mainstream" is just a bad word, could mean different things in different scenarios... many don't consider "gaming" to be mainstream :/

VR only has to be sustainable to endure some longevity and continued usage to be successful IMO, like flight sticks or steering wheel controls. who cares if it remains a niche product or not?
 
Dayaks said:
I disagree considering they are still selling millions / year.
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Millions where? globally? Considering how long I've been in the PC world as a consumer, 1989, and in the IT business in general since 2004, It's still a very niche product at best. I've met and know countless people who are into tech in general. Compared to almost ANY other tech product these things don't sell. You just don't see them in the wild.

Facebook *may* sell 1 million headsets this year:
https://variety.com/2019/digital/news/oculus-quest-sales-data-1203239945/

Motorola sold more cell phones in 1992:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_mobile_phones#2018

Bro, nobody cares. Sorry, the facts don't support your claim.
 
OFaceSIG said:
Millions where? globally? Considering how long I've been in the PC world as a consumer, 1989, and in the IT business in general since 2004, It's still a very niche product at best. I've met and know countless people who are into tech in general. Compared to almost ANY other tech product these things don't sell. You just don't see them in the wild.

Facebook *may* sell 1 million headsets this year:
https://variety.com/2019/digital/news/oculus-quest-sales-data-1203239945/

Motorola sold more cell phones in 1992:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_mobile_phones#2018

Bro, nobody cares. Sorry, the facts don't support your claim.
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https://www.viar360.com/virtual-reality-market-size-2018/

It's growing so not sure what facts you are using. ;)
 
Even with updated numbers for Motorola to sell 4 million phones in 19 friggin 92 versus facebook selling 1.7m oculus to this point doesn't impress me. VR is a whiz bang buzz word right now.

Augmented reality through cell phones is already a bigger field and that's only because of friggin the unbelievable huge phenomenon that is pokemon.

Nobody cares about VR.
 
OFaceSIG said:
Even with updated numbers for Motorola to sell 4 million phones in 19 friggin 92 versus facebook selling 1.7m oculus to this point doesn't impress me. VR is a whiz bang buzz word right now.

Augmented reality through cell phones is already a bigger field and that's only because of friggin the unbelievable huge phenomenon that is pokemon.

Nobody cares about VR.
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Not sure what world you live in, but if 1 unit is sold, that means the use of the word nobody is wrong. So again, you are wrong.
Also VR is still being hindered by GPU's, even so, it still rocks. How people can play on 2D screens is so archaic. *throw up in mouth.gif*
 
Hagrid said:
Not sure what world you live in, but if 1 unit is sold, that means the use of the word nobody is wrong. So again, you are wrong.
Also VR is still being hindered by GPU's, even so, it still rocks. How people can play on 2D screens is so archaic. *throw up in mouth.gif*
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Don't be a teenager.

You know what I mean.

And yes, it's ALL GPUs' fault.

No, one, cares.
 
OFaceSIG said:
Don't be a teenager.

You know what I mean.

And yes, it's ALL GPUs' fault.

No, one, cares.
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Then use your big boy vocabulary and use the correct terms. So you do not read good, so show me where I said it was all the GPU's fault?
You tell me to stop being a teenager and you are acting much younger with the same mentality as well.

We get it, you hate VR? Why not post why you hate it so much instead of making false claims.
 
Hagrid said:
Then use your big boy vocabulary and use the correct terms. So you do not read good, so show me where I said it was all the GPU's fault?
You tell me to stop being a teenager and you are acting much younger with the same mentality as well.

We get it, you hate VR? Why not post why you hate it so much instead of making false claims.
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I don't hate VR. I do think it's easily one of the most overrated and over-hyped technologies in quite some time.

If there is actual content in the future, and less bulky and more comfortable equipment it will change the game.

But right now? It's a toy, apparently for people like you, that are really interested in it, and that's really where it ends. Far from mainstream, far from "popular".
 
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