Gideon
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You will get no argument out of me on that.
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Poll: AMD RX 5700 Series vs NVidia RTX Super. Which gets your money?
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You will get no argument out of me on that.
I have no issue with the blower style cooler. Once big Navi or NVidia true next gen comes out , the card will be put into a HTPC where the blower style works perfect for me.
Do agree that the AIB solutions will most likely have much better cooling solutions.
Do agree that the AIB solutions will most likely have much better cooling solutions.
Factum
2[H]4U
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N4CR
Supreme [H]ardness
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An option is something they should work on for the next releases, that's a great idea. VII was a step in the right direction.
I don't mind the ref coolers because I either go Arctic or something serious if I change the cooling and ref is always best for mods and being unbinned. My V64 supposedly has a 'horrible, loud cooler' but with 1025mV undervolt and fan curve tuning it's quiet (I run 18dba 800rpm 180mm sleeve bearing fans) and does 1440/60 or more in everything in play at max so I'm happy. It's enough cooler when running an optimized setup. Stock curves are aggressive, AMD probably has to do this for a reason to accommodate worst environments, or they get throttling epidemic in tropicalistan, then AMD suxx more again etc.
kirbyrj
Fully [H]
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Most likely...as all they have to do to do better..is to add 4 washers
I can't seem to find that video. What size washers? M2?
Auer
[H]ard|Gawd
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kirbyrj
Fully [H]
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Looks like M2 size I'd guess.
IdiotInCharge
NVIDIA SHILL
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To be clear, that AMD offered a blower cooler isn't really a problem. It's that you can't not buy it, and that it's a terrible blower cooler- compared to other AMD releases, let alone some of Nvidia's better (and likely more expensive) blowers.
If there was a two-fan open-air option that at least brought the decibels down and got the GPU even close to what it is capable of with a higher power target the market perception would be quite different.
Gideon
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They keep going in and out of stock, so I dont think market perception is bad. I think most of the public could give a shit less what type of fan they get on the card. Just like some cars have better A/C yet I have never seen someone pick a car based on that. Your looking at it from the enthusiast side which is quite different then how the general public looks at tech. Most of them dont know anything more about the card then whats printed on the box.
CyberJunk
Supreme [H]ardness
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I wanted a 5700 XT reference board so i could add either a Morepheus II or Arctic cooling Extreme III VGA cooler to it. Which would be better than most custom boards anyways?
IdiotInCharge
NVIDIA SHILL
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I don't think that we can tell one thing or another. They could just as easily be meting out stock or having supply chain issues.
No, they'll just shove it in whatever case and then go 'fsck this AMD card is loud'. And that's what they'll think of AMD cards- which is mostly true, being fair.
So they won't have a clue that one could get an AMD card that isn't a banshee under load
This is astroturfing at its finest. Considering your join date, your ferocious post frequency and the content and ad like nature of your posts, it is highly suspect. Just saying you own a Nvidia card in your main computer is not enough. Someone could say they own 4 RTX titans with a slice of ham cooking in their main rig, it is the internet, posts are cheap. Even a pic of an RTX coming from you would be suspect because of how engrained in marketing you appear you are.
Your acting like 7nm cards are not coming from Nvidia and Nvidia's current product are not competitive with AMD. This is absolutely false. The wafer cost of 7nm negates much the of the cost of production advantage from Nvidia using large dies and the performance per watt similarities is mostly a result of the nodal process rather than the architecture.
Navi is a competitive product which is great and 5700xt is faster at the 400 price point compared to a RTX 2060 super, but it isn't quite enough to own the market because as the market has shown, the general public is willing to pay more for Nvidia because of the brand and even when there is a performance deficit. AMD needs to be aggressive to win marketshare and the crappiness of AMD's game bundle shows they are not being aggressive.
Add in that the more titles you include, the smaller the advantage becomes as techpowerup or babeltechs review show, and there is a good chance the RTX 2060 super will outsell the 5700xt. The public takes branding much more into account than forums and add 2 games which are significantly more valuable than a 3 month game pass and there is a good chance the average joe will still pass over AMD. AMD did what it needed to compete but left Nvidia with alot of cards to play. It can still drop the price further and from what I have seen, there are partner cards with little marketup over reference cards. AMD will have to ensure that partner cards do not come with high markups to compete well with Nvidia AIB cards. E.g A 450 AIB cards will struggle to look good to the general public vs something like the MSI RTX 2070 super gaming X which sold was selling at 499.99 recently.
AMD will need be aggressive to compete against Nvidia because they are not the premium brand no matter how much you shout it. Too much damage was done during 28nm and 16/14nm for it to become the premium brand overnight. Without a flagship that outperforms Nvidia's fastest, they will continue to play the value angle and the 5700 cards slotting beneath the pricing of Nvidia's offering is proof of this.
No matter how much you try to discount it either, RTX ray tracing does carry some weight because it is the first ray tracing implementation and it is coming to some of the biggest games if not the biggest games. Mechwarrior 5 and Cyberpunk 2077 are huge games, particularly the latter which will help sell Nvidia based cards. Big games in the future will still use unreal engine 4 including the biggest game in the world right now, fortnite.
AMD has a tough battle ahead and next year will not be as easy as you think with Nvidia moving to 7nm. You don't think am 100% improvement in transistor density, 30% improvement in performance or 60% improvement in efficiency(improvements denoted by TSMC 7nm vs 16nm finfet) had anything to do with AMD catching up to nvidia? That is what your implying by your posts and talk of next year. Apply these improvements to Turing and you have a situation which is not much different than Polaris vs Pascal. I.e apply a die shrink to the RTX 2070 core and all of a sudden you have a chip that is 30% faster than a RTX 2070 or something with RTX 2070 performance at about 90 watts at 220mm2 or something a balance between the two like 15% faster than a RTX 2070 at 120watts. Same thing applies to all the RTX lineup today.
The nodal advantage AMD posses currently for CPU's is not remotely as exclusive in the GPU space. Nvidia is much more aggressive compared to Intel when it comes to execution. It is best not to underestimate them if your AMD. Additionally, if Nvidia decides to price their 220mm dies in the $250 to 300 range, expect them to wipe out much of AMD's goodwill because of their actions today of selling Polaris replacements a 350 to 400, much like Nvidia lost when they initially priced turing so high. AMD was expected to save the market, not simply be competitive with Nvidia's cards. 250mm2 dies selling 350/400 dollars is merely the underdog brand trying to be competitive against the market share/brand leader and making a heavy buck doing it.
Are you an advertising bot or something? Because nearly none of what you say makes sense. AMD's latest and greatest Navi cards barely compete with the bottom of NVIDIA's product stack. The RTX 2060 Super and RTX 2070, are the bottom or near the bottom of the RTX ladder. The following cards AMD has no answer for:
RTX 2070 Super
RTX 2080
RTX 2080 Super (7/23/19)
RTX 2080 Ti
TITAN RTX
The cards above simply beat AMD from a performance standpoint. They also include ray tracing in hardware and AMD does not have an answer for that. AMD even had to cut prices before launch because NVIDIA's timing on its super cards put them in a lurch and forced AMD's stack down a peg price wise. So, AMD is far from the premium brand. Gamers and Prosumers that can afford premium graphics cards aren't even looking at Navi right now. Perhaps the architecture has legs, but right now, AMD has nothing to compete past the lower to mid-range.
Lets go over your list shall we?
AMD's mainstream offerings:
-7nm
-GDDR6 448 GB/s
-PCIe 4.0
-RDNA (Brand new gaming architecture)
- 7nm means nothing when NVIDIA's 12nm process built parts are more power efficient. The TDP's on the Navi cards are all higher than their NVIDIA counterparts. Next?
- GDDR6 448 GB/s. Its interesting you bring this up when NVIDIA's offerings have upwards of 616GB/s of bandwidth. The RTX 2060 Super has 448GB/s of bandwidth, matching NVIDIA's flagship. This is a card near the bottom of the rung in NVIDIA's product stack with a mere 192bit memory bus. But hey let's move on. Your bound to be right about something eventually. Right? Well, not so fast.
- PCIe 4.0. Show me a point in history where the bus speed increase from one PCIe generation to the next brought anything to the table in its first generation. I'll wait. The fact is, PCIe 2.0 came out and graphics cards still performed just as well at PCIe 2.0 as they did at 1.0. Keep in mind that countless tests and articles have been done restricting the PCIe lanes of GPU's to see how they perform in games. Spoiler Alert: It doesn't usually matter much. Going from PCIe 4.0 is a logical step, I'd agree. However, no Navi card is fast enough to make use of the bus. Even an RTX 2080 Ti wouldn't be better off as a PCIe 4.0 card. Right now the only place you will see PCIe 4.0 making a difference is in storage performance. Even then, that's going to be on benchmarks. I've used a PCIe 4.0 SSD and I can't tell the difference just using the system between it and the PCIe 3.0 devices in the other test machines. Next.
- RDNA (Brand new gaming architecture) Beyond the marketing slide decks (which I have BTW), what exactly is this supposed to mean? This is basically part of a marketing campaign. Yes, the architecture is new but it was already deficient in two key areas when it hit the ground. 1.) Efficiency. Again, higher TDP's than NVIDIA's offerings. 2.) No RTX in hardware. Game developers have started embracing this feature and its seen by many as a major milestone in image quality for games. AMD has no answer for this and it wasn't in the RDNA architecture and it would take some doing to add it. It wouldn't be RDNA anymore, but rather a refresh of it at the very least.
Note: the RTX2060 Super has a 256bit bus.
About the only thing RDNA has over Turing is price. @$400 the RX5700 is a better choice vs the 2060 super unless you really want raytracing.
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So it does, I was thinking of the RTX 2060 non-Super.
Auer
[H]ard|Gawd
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I wonder why no one has brought up that Navi is better simply because nvidia is evil
Because everybody knows that. Silly.
Another big problem for the 5700 lineup is the last option on the survey..... Many potential buyers already broke down and bought something with similar performance. AMDs response to RTX is nearly a year late....
AMD launched a new series of GPU and immediately cuts high end 10 series or mid to high end 20 series card owners from it's potential customer list. They have zero chance of getting these sales unless they manage to get their next gen out before Nvidia's.
AMD launched a new series of GPU and immediately cuts high end 10 series or mid to high end 20 series card owners from it's potential customer list. They have zero chance of getting these sales unless they manage to get their next gen out before Nvidia's.
5150Joker
Supreme [H]ardness
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How many people will take a gamble on editing the bios (and voiding their warranty) and adding aftermarket cooling which adds another $100 in cost for a decent block just to reach parity with a stock 2070S in one game? Show me pubg, Apex legends, r6 Siege and fortnite results with 1% frames if you want to talk of equaling nVidia. All these canned benchmarks for games nobody plays means nothing. Your proposition of picking a modded 5700xt with expensive aftermarket watercooling just to equal a stock 2070S isn't logical.
Edit: Went back and read previous posts and I see amenx beat me to calling out this guys post.
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Gideon
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Lots of people I know have skipped RTX and are hanging on to much older cards then you think. Most people wont spend past 300 bucks on a card.
Auer
[H]ard|Gawd
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Lots of people I know wont even think about buying AMD, what's your point? Lots of people do a lots of things.
Gideon
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same as yours.
IdiotInCharge
NVIDIA SHILL
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Many skipped because they already have Maxwell and Paschal GPUs, or other AMD GPUs, and see no need to upgrade yet. And AMD isn't really giving them one outside of a sliver of the market, and even then, they're behind on modern feature support.
I totally get that, I'm not saying there aren't still plenty of customers for the 5700 to be successful.
Just that a quick look a steam HWS shows ~10% of the market already has something similar \ better. That's a decent hurdled right off the line. Particularly when it's a segment that clearly is willing to spend big $$ if you give them a reason to.
OnceSetThisCannotChange
Limp Gawd
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If you want better value, keep it air cooled - best to wait for third party cards - and you are going to do better in most games, compared to similarly priced competition. In case you are amused with pushing this card further, it suprisingly is an option, and you can spend the difference between it and 2700S on better cooling instead.
I'd buy it if I was buying now, but I have a better card already.
IdiotInCharge
NVIDIA SHILL
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We can't really be sure that the current price delta will hold between both lines with the 5700s receiving third-party coolers given how low-rent the OEM blower is.
OnceSetThisCannotChange
Limp Gawd
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Fair point, you never know until the cards are out, should find out in a few weeks.
I'm also curious what AIB's can do in their non-reference designs. At one point, I wouldn't have considered such cards worth while, but these days there can be quite a bit of difference in VRM's etc.
5150Joker
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Why would someone be stupid enough to buy the 5700 XT and spend an extra $100+ on it just to match the 2070S in ONE game (which is all you have shown it can do with the heavy modifications + WC OC) and still lack RTX. Again, you're providing terrible advice to gamers who don't know better. If you go back and look at that Toms graph, the 2070S on stock NVIDIA cooling gained around 7-8 fps with the OC they used without ANY mods and the 5700XT with a bios mod + water cooling managed to gain 10-12 fps. Yeah really great value there buddy.
Not to mention the first part of your statement is blatantly false/misleading as you don't do "better in most games" with 5700XT against a 2070S, rather it falls behind by a decently large margin. Don't try to shift the narrative by saying "similarly priced competition" because you originally tried to pair it against a 2070S and proclaim it was a better value and equal performance with the caveat of bios editing (warranty void) and $100+ in mods and now you're backtracking.
Even if you used an AIB card, it wouldn't achieve the same results as a WC + bios edited card that Toms showed.
P.S. Games that people actually play everyday by the millions:
Sorry but AMD's latest marvel still can't keep up with 3 year old Pascal in games that matter.
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First of all I don't see any RTX titles on that list above. Another point is that not everyone cares about RTX. Maybe in 5 years. I have owned 2x 2070s (At different times) and never even used RTX. Its a niche market at this point due to the performance impact being so large. I mean, I get you hate AMD. But Navi is far from bad as you paint the picture. The card should have been in the hands of AIBs to make custom cards at DAY 1 with the current prices. The 50 Anniversary should have never existed and was a cash grab.
OutOfPhase
Supreme [H]ardness
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This is perhaps the naive opinion of someone in R&D and not marketing, but it seems like MY GOD did they miss a bay-window opportunity there.
Charge more for the special! Even a fair amount more. But - clock it up, and have an air-cooling setup among the best. Reviews would cover both cards, but we'd always mentally associate Navi with this version. We'd know the chip was capable and could run cool, and we'd also know they could scale downwards in cost.
I personally think an improved high-end version would be more well received overall than the message of "performs a bit better than the competition, but installs a hairdryer in your PC. May have gold trim".
5150Joker
Supreme [H]ardness
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I don't hate AMD, I dislike AMD fans who try to dispense bad information to satisfy their Team Red quotas. As for you saying, "not everyone cares about RTX", so? Does you somehow proclaiming not caring about it and intimating it will only be useful in 5 years mean its true? Certainly not given the evidence:
17 games with Ray Tracing support:
- Assetto Corsa Competizione
- Atomic Heart
- Battlefield V
- Call of Duty: Modern Warfare (2019)
- Control
- Cyberpunk 2077
- Enlisted
- Justice
- JX3
- MechWarrior 5: Mercenaries
- Metro Exodus
- ProjectDH
- Quake II
- Shadow of the Tomb Raider
- Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2
- Watch Dogs Legion
- Wolfenstein: Youngblood
29 games with DLSS support:
- Ark: Survival Evolved
- Anthem
- Atomic Heart
- Battlefield V
- Dauntless
- Final Fantasy 15
- Fractured Lands
- Hitman 2
- Islands of Nyne
- Justice
- JX3
- Mechwarrior 5: Mercenaries
- Metro Exodus
- Monster Hunter World
- PlayerUnknown’s Battlegrounds
- Remnant: From the Ashes
- Serious Sam 4: Planet Badass
- Shadow of the Tomb Raider
- The Forge Arena
- We Happy Few
- Darksiders III
- Deliver Us The Moon: Fortuna
- Fear the Wolves
- Hellblade: Senua’s Sacrifice
- KINETIK
- Outpost Zero
- Overkill’s The Walking Dead
- SCUM
- Stormdivers
- Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2
The titles COD: MW, Cyberpunk 2077 and Wolfenstein are FAR from niche and I'm sure millions of people care about those games, just apparently not you and other AMD fans because AMD released a card that can't keep up with 3 year old Pascal in features and only matches it in performance/thermals by going 7nm. One thing NVIDIA made a mistake with is advertise BF 5 heavily with RTX because yes, the performance impact is too great to be viable in multiplayer games. But in SP games, you can easily go 30-60 FPS comfortably with VRR and have stunning visuals and you don't need to wait 5 years for it to be viable--well maybe for AMD you do going by their track record of GPU releases.
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Great, I am glad you love RTX. I would rather have more frames than ray tracing. I am sure at least 50% of the gaming community would agree. I really don't see anyone touting DLSS around here anymore. BTW... I am not an AMD fanboy. Thanks
You know, I get tired of those Nvidia fans too. They both drive me nuts.
You know, I get tired of those Nvidia fans too. They both drive me nuts.
5150Joker
Supreme [H]ardness
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I like ray tracing but not DLSS as I think tensor cores were a mistake to include in a consumer card and I'm sure Ampere will rectify that. But as for your "rather have more frames" statement, in an SP game who cares? Do you see any appreciable difference in an SP game over 60 fps? Certainly not the 50% of gamers you're touting.
With regard to your bolded statement, if you're the same guy who mods AT forums, then I can see why because you guys ban anyone over there that says anything positive about NVIDIA and contrary to the status quo of AMD. Very slanted and biased forums and why I never went back.
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IdiotInCharge
NVIDIA SHILL
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To be clear, the reference PCB seems to be exceedingly well built- to the tune of stably handling +50% power. It's just going nowhere with that stock cooler.
And I also want to expound on the point you bring up, in that non-reference designs can likely get even more out of the GPU.
AMD likely did leave ~50% of the performance potential on the table. I can't even begin to reasonably speculate why they'd do that.
Gideon
2[H]4U
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You got to stop with the wounded Nvidia fan stick. Nvidia has more then earned it's criticism over the years and AMD has been roasted for their failures as well. You of course are always free to buy whatever you feel is best for you, but you gotta stop thinking you can force everyone to see the world your way. I have owned cards from both companies and have been happy and disappointed with both. But this whole it has to have RTX or it's a failure thing is getting old, Ray Tracing in it's current form is very weak and barely worth the effort for the massive performance hit you take. Will we get there one day and everyone will care, sure but not a soul will be using these cards when that day happens.
AMD tends to over design and over build it's cards. The VRM's, PCB's etc. always feel higher quality to me than any NVIDIA reference design. When you look into the VRM's, that's generally the case. That said, I think your right in that they went with a shitty cooler design. I'm not sure if they left 50% performance on the table. That seems unlikely. If AMD could have competed with NVIDIA in higher performance brackets, it would.
Huh? You have no clue of my work. You are looking outside in. Banned more red than green actually, that's all I will say.
You need to quit putting things on a personal level. That's what will get you banned. Its not the Red or Green status, its the context of the post.
Sorry Mods if off topic. Feel free to delete.
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