Huawei Ousted from Associations That Create Global Standards

cageymaru

cageymaru

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The Nikkei Asian Review is reporting that Huawei Technologies has been removed from several global standards-setting bodies. These include JEDEC (semiconductor standards), SD Association (memory cards), and the Wi-Fi Alliance. Huawei is still able to create products based on the standards that these associations create, but the company has lost all influence in creating new standards. "'The SD Association is complying with U.S. Department of Commerce orders,' the group told Nikkei in a statement on Friday." Google, Intel, Qualcomm and others have severed ties with the Chinese company.

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"They could always develop their own standards within China," the executive said. "But if you are going overseas and link to other people's network, you need to accept the standards that everyone else is adopting worldwide."
 
With all this going down how with huawei respond, will they actually change their ways or will they hunker down continue to steal what they need and just sell it in China/India and ignore the rest of the world.
 
Will be interesting to find out what the actual exploits that were found are. They just haven't published the evidence yet.
 
Lakados said:
With all this going down how with huawei respond, will they actually change their ways or will they hunker down continue to steal what they need and just sell it in China/India and ignore the rest of the world.
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They'll simply wait out Drumpf until the next mood swing when everything flips opposite again, after the insiders and megabanks have realized their quick profits and cashed out all their chips from the short positions they took right before this phony bullshit.
 
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odditory said:
They'll simply wait out Drumpf until the next mood swing when everything is opposite again, after the insiders and megabanks have realized their quick profits and cashed out all their chips from the short positions they took right before this phony bullshit.
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One of the dumbest things I have read today :ROFLMAO:

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
 
gigaxtreme1 said:
Will be interesting to find out what the actual exploits that were found are. They just haven't published the evidence yet.
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Evidence? Huawei is a Chinese company. Full stop.
By Chinese law that means they must comply with anything the Communist Party of China orders them to. By Chinese law, Huawei must have members of the CPC on-site to nudge them to actions which will benefits the CPC. Not what benefits Huawei. Not even what benefits China. But what benefits the CPC. By law, private Chinese companies are required to allow the military unfettered access to whatever tech they develop. They call it civil-military fusion and it's been written into their Constitution. The military is controlled by the Communist Party of China and are beholden not to the Chinese people or nation, or even to the entire CPC...the military and the country are contrrolled by a single person with essentially zero checks and balances.
The CPC, since day one, has been hostile to the US. Sometimes that hostility has been open for the whole world to see (Vietnam and Korea) and other times they whisper sweet nothings into the ears of the 'west' but they have always been and will remain a hostile nation for at least as long as the CPC is in complete control of the country.

The evidence you feel is lacking has been published already in the Chinese Constitution and other documents for anyone to read.
 
The longer this goes on the more I would say anyone holding large chunks of Apple may want to think about selling today. China has been pretty patient so far, but I would have to assume the other shoe is going to drop at some point. I guess China is the only country not allowed to have a global tech player because the US says so. This is going to end ugly and probably very quickly when China starts banning US tech companies.
 
ChadD said:
The longer this goes on the more I would say anyone holding large chunks of Apple may want to think about selling today. China has been pretty patient so far, but I would have to assume the other shoe is going to drop at some point. I guess China is the only country not allowed to have a global tech player because the US says so. This is going to end ugly and probably very quickly when China starts banning US tech companies.
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They won't. They're smarter than that and understand the situation for what it is: momentary theatrics and a big cashgrab for the special interests in Trump's ear telling him what to say to manipulate the markets, driving this situation for insane short term profits. None of this is based on the president's original ideas or thoughts.

China will continue to put the screws to pro-Trump industries like agriculture, and you'll see them leave left leaning industries alone -- they want him out in 2020 and will bide their time.
 
Lakados said:
With all this going down how with huawei respond, will they actually change their ways or will they hunker down continue to steal what they need and just sell it in China/India and ignore the rest of the world.
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How would you know? Its taking the word of the DoC either way at face value.

The US Govt wants to destroy a company as a political maneuver that's apparently constitutional now. It will take years to contest this in court, meanwhile their company is toast.
 
idiomatic said:
How would you know? Its taking the word of the DoC either way at face value.

The US Govt wants to destroy a company as a political maneuver that's apparently constitutional now. It will take years to contest this in court, meanwhile their company is toast.
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What flavor of Kool-Aid is your favorite?
I'm guessing....red.
 
Huawei = Chinese Government? Any connections or am I just full of it?
 
I think you'd be very hard-pressed to find an honest person who knows anything about how things operate in China who thinks doing business with a Chinese company is a good idea. Some may consider it a necessary evil but I think that's just a bullshit excuse to chase profits in the short-term.
 
Laowai said:
I think you'd be very hard-pressed to find an honest person who knows anything about how things operate in China who thinks doing business with a Chinese company is a good idea. Some may consider it a necessary evil but I think that's just a bullshit excuse to chase profits in the short-term.
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I mean, I like buying cheap Chinese stuff, but I'd never go into business with them :ROFLMAO:
 
This will be used as a bargaining chip in a trade deal. I'm telling you!
Some more companies wil start to get hit with sanctions and suddenly an agreement will be reached and sanctions will be lifted
 
ChadD said:
This is going to end ugly and probably very quickly when China starts banning US tech companies.
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Uh...I hope that was sarcasm that went over my head because China has been and is currently banning numerous tech companies and countless other companies. This is nothing new. You been living under a rock or something?
Facebook, Instagram, WhatsApp, Google and everything related to Google including YouTube and Gmail, Twitter, Netflix, MS OneDrive, Twitch, Bing, Reddit, HBO, SoundCloud, Imgur, Flickr, Slideshare, DuckDuckGo, Discord, Bloomberg, Dropbox, Pinterest, NYT, Vimeo, Time, Goodreads ffs!

Those listed above are banned entirely or in part from doing business in China. Maybe not all of them are American companies /shrug
I can compile a bigger list if you'd like and we can then discuss (Disqus is banned too btw) all the shady trade practices China gets up to and how every single market in China is rigged by the gov't.
 
Laowai said:
Uh...I hope that was sarcasm that went over my head because China has been and is currently banning numerous tech companies and countless other companies. This is nothing new. You been living under a rock or something?
Facebook, Instagram, WhatsApp, Google and everything related to Google including YouTube and Gmail, Twitter, Netflix, MS OneDrive, Twitch, Bing, Reddit, HBO, SoundCloud, Imgur, Flickr, Slideshare, DuckDuckGo, Discord, Bloomberg, Dropbox, Pinterest, NYT, Vimeo, Time, Goodreads ffs!

Those listed above are banned entirely or in part from doing business in China. Maybe not all of them are American companies /shrug
I can compile a bigger list if you'd like and we can then discuss (Disqus is banned too btw) all the shady trade practices China gets up to and how every single market in China is rigged by the gov't.
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Apples and oranges. You mean China has heavy censorship and doesn't allow online companies to do whatever. Yes that is true. Yet all the companies you list that aren't just basic service companies are still doing a ton of business with China or trying to.
Google China job openings Google china has had 20+ jobs open at any given time for years now. They aren't hiring all those folks for nothing. Sure Googles US employees may hate it... but Google don't.

Anyway we both know I was talking about hardware... not software. If the US was trying to ban Perfect world from infecting US markets with its gamble box games that would be more on par with Google banning flickr or soundcloud. No the US is going after the Chinese company looking to build infrastructure and sell consumer devices. I mentioned Apple because right now they are making 13-20 billion a quarter in device sales in China. They had to slash prices in China late last year when their Chinese sales dipped 5 billion in one quarter. (that dip... is directly due to Chinese competition. The Chinese consumers are starting to see the 40-50% cheaper Chinese designed options as acceptable even as fashion statements. Apples only play was to match on price.)

On the software end yes we all know China is evil. That isn't really in dispute yes they censor their internet and companies that aren't willing to play that game aren't allowed in. Still China has been very open to tech companies selling hardware to their citizens.

At the end of the day I suspect Tim Apple told glorious leader that his biggest concern was how much more hardware Chinese companies like Huawei and Oppo where starting to shipping worldwide, and how they where quickly entering US markets as well. Couple that with the perhaps very scary aggressive growth Huawei is/was seeing in infrastructure deals across the world... perhaps the thinking was setting them back a bit wasn't a bad play. Still if a resolution isn't found at a trade table... China is likely to either put import taxes on US tech in China or just ban it. So as I say really bad time to be investing in Apple.... as their own growth projections forcast 20% of revenue to come form China within the next year or two.
 
ChadD said:
Anyway we both know I was talking about hardware... not software.
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You know better than this. Hardware is just software in circuits. With the complexity of any of the hardware in question, there's no way to separate the two, most certainly not from a hard security standpoint.

So no, we can't just handwave the hardware.

Beyond that, the combined issues of IP theft and what amounts to a distributed hardware backdoor make the idea of relying on any hardware produced by a Chinese company for infrastructure a strategic mistake. Beyond that, the IP theft- which means that these companies are stealing technology, mass producing it, and then selling it back.
 
IdiotInCharge said:
You know better than this. Hardware is just software in circuits. With the complexity of any of the hardware in question, there's no way to separate the two, most certainly not from a hard security standpoint.

So no, we can't just handwave the hardware.

Beyond that, the combined issues of IP theft and what amounts to a distributed hardware backdoor make the idea of relying on any hardware produced by a Chinese company for infrastructure a strategic mistake. Beyond that, the IP theft- which means that these companies are stealing technology, mass producing it, and then selling it back.
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Fair enough and I'm not suggesting dealing with China for all things tech is a great way to go about things.

I just see this backfiring as hard as Obamas you can't buy Intel stuff no more China. That prodded the Chinese to invest a massive chunk of their GDP to funding tech development. Within a few years of the US worrying China was going to use fast Intel chips to simulate bombs, they had an even faster home brew machine of their own. Which was only recently dethroned as the fastest in the world. The US put their foot down and China din't get upset they just removed their need for US tech.

We live in a world of open source... Chinese couldn't use Xeons so they built their own arch, and their own version of Linux to run it. So they can innovate when they are motivated to do so. They first build a slower chip based on older Alpha chips to get their designers feet wet then a year later they had build their own unique arch.

It may not be as easy to replace ARM and Google... but China is both motivated, singular in vision due to their BS totalitarian gov, and have boat loads of resources, and despite what we would like to think in the West an extremely capable highly educated brain class more then willing to do the work. Sure they steal tons of stuff cause why reinvent the wheel... it is however a major mistake to think they can't innovate on their own.

Perhaps we don't hear much about Huawei for a few years in the West after they get knee capped by the US gov. However I wouldn't be surprised if the black balling continues that in a year or two... China doesn't give the real boot to Google and Apple at home, and replace them with devices running some Chinese baked OS running a Linux kernel on RiscV hardware or some off shoot of the sunway architecture powering Chinas Sunway TaihuLight super computer.

Yes China doesn't play fair... but neither does the US. I think in this case they may be just poking the bear a little to much, I'm not sure forcing the Chinese to look inward is a good long term solution.
 
Well, 'containing' China's economic growth isn't really a thing; however, containing their influence especially as it relates to their struggle to attain strategic advantages by essentially bugging the world is certainly worthy.

And while I get that basically everyone else does that too, it's one thing to have it done by a traditional ally that is invested in stability, and another to have it done by a geostrategic adversary.
 
We should not be doing business with and contributing to the rise of a nation that does things like denying the Tiananmen Square massacre occurred and runs modern day concentration camps. A future in which China dominates is a dystopian one.
 
Laowai said:
What flavor of Kool-Aid is your favorite?
I'm guessing....red.
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It is always funny to see people accusing others of drinking the 'Kool-aid'. Ever think maybe you are drinking a different flavor? Using these cheap accusations does not serve to enhance your argument.

At any rate, a good benchmark of validity is how the rest of the world is dealing with suspected Chinese espionage. Banning Huawei or any company in the U.S. is perfectly OK. However by blocking exports we are taking that choice away from other countries. This 'we know better' thinking does not make us look good.
 
Jinto said:
Banning Huawei or any company in the U.S. is perfectly OK. However by blocking exports we are taking that choice away from other countries. This 'we know better' thinking does not make us look good.
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You mean, it should be okay for China to continue to procure US technology, just not okay for them to sell it back to the US?

Do you hear yourself?
 
IdiotInCharge said:
You mean, it should be okay for China to continue to procure US technology, just not okay for them to sell it back to the US?

Do you hear yourself?
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Of course, we want China to buy more of our stuff, tech included. We are not going to fix the trade balance selling them soybeans.
 
China has an agenda, to become world super power and they have no qualms about doing it any way they see fit

Steal tech? Check
Spying? Check
Low cost manufacturing? Check
Buying assets world wide? Check
 
I don't get it.. if they steal tech... Why would they be affected by US bans? Oh wait, they are buying it, and we just don't like avid competition.
 
Not being in the groups that make standards isn't really that big of a deal...
Maybe they can't get a headstart in manufacturing some new tech, and then propose standards that their equipment can already do (maybe shorten time to market a few months), big deal. They can still manufacture tech that follows whatever standard is ratified.
Not the end of the world for any business, or even any tech business.

Plenty of companies make ethernet equipment that are not a part of the ieee group that meets in room 802. They still make ethernet products, wifi equipment, and function as tech businesses just fine.

What you guys are arguing about is really a side-related discussion, better off in it's own thread.
 
GoodBoy said:
(maybe shorten time to market a few months)
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Intel is already shipping 'WiFi 6' parts, that have already been integrated into products, and that standard hasn't yet been ratified.

I can see Chinese companies trying to keep up, but without open access to future standards to start integration, they're likely going to be behind more than 'a few months'; especially since they won't be able to just buy the parts for what they can't indigenously manufacture.
 
Uvaman2 said:
I don't get it.. if they steal tech... Why would they be affected by US bans? Oh wait, they are buying it, and we just don't like avid competition.
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The gist of operating in China is you have to partner with a Chinese company (who surprise, must have access to your technology - thsi is often referred to as "forced technology transfer"). Then stealing from their "business partner's" IP (including tech) and using it to improve their own domestic industry / re-selling that as "NEW CHINESE TECH!"

On the surface, the bans won't affect the Chinese / Chinese market directly BUT it will wreck companies like Huwei who sell in China (47-48% revenue is from domestic sales according to their 2018 corporate report) but also sell everywhere else in the world.

Sure you can use Weibo or Alibaba or whatever in China, but in the rest of the world (where they earn the other 52-53% of their revenue) people use Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat and eBay / Amazon.

Guess what?

All of those companies and apps will no longer be able to license / sell their 'software or services' to Huawei. I don't know about you but a smartphone without technical / security OS updates and no apps is pretty pointless.
 
IdiotInCharge said:
Intel is already shipping 'WiFi 6' parts, that have already been integrated into products, and that standard hasn't yet been ratified.
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And those parts may or may not be in compliance once the standard is finalized.

IdiotInCharge said:
I can see Chinese companies trying to keep up, but without open access to future standards to start integration, they're likely going to be behind more than 'a few months'; especially since they won't be able to just buy the parts for what they can't indigenously manufacture.
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Everyone has open access, even to "proposed" standards, before being ratified. Google "ieee draft standard". Being on the committee gives a company a chance to provide input on future standards, but provides no other benefits that I can see.
 
Uvaman2 said:
I don't get it.. if they steal tech... Why would they be affected by US bans? Oh wait, they are buying it, and we just don't like avid competition.
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Man, you sure are a crusader for the righteousness of China. It's an entire country that exists by suppressing opposition from within its borders, keeping the unwashed masses out of the cities, causing unparalleled damage to the environment, and copying the innovations of better, brighter, and wealthier nations.

Have you ever done business with Chinese companies? Man, negotiate -or attempt to- with that crew just once and see if you have the same feel-good about their business model.
 
Joust said:
Man, you sure are a crusader for the righteousness of China. It's an entire country that exists by suppressing opposition from within its borders, keeping the unwashed masses out of the cities, causing unparalleled damage to the environment, and copying the innovations of better, brighter, and wealthier nations.

Have you ever done business with Chinese companies? Man, negotiate -or attempt to- with that crew just once and see if you have the same feel-good about their business model.
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As I've said before....those who are 'white knights' when it comes to China generally have never lived there or had many dealings with Chinese people. Actual Chinese people. Not those in Taiwan or Singapore or even HK. I'm talking about the 1.4 billion Mainlanders who lie, cheat, and steal in much the way other people breathe. I am not excusing it one bit...but it actually IS cultural. They do not see lying, cheating, or stealing the same way we do. Don't even get me started on contracts. Contracts mean nothing to Chinese people and little to anyone else in a country where 'rule of law' simply does not exist.

That said...I find it difficult to call it stealing in those numerous cases where 'western' companies agreed to a forced tech transfer as a cost of getting access to the Chinese market (yeah, right) or for getting trinkets and baubles made cheaply.
 
Bluetooth SIG, SD Association, and Wi-Fi Alliance reinstate Huawei

The Bluetooth, SD and Wi-Fi alliances, which stripped Huawei of membership after US President Donald Trump declared its products a national security risk, have reinstated the Chinese tech giant without any official announcements.

..

It turns out that the Chinese company was restored on the member lists of all three alliances, however. The reasons for the move are unclear, with the tech associations not commenting on it in any way. Huawei representatives have only said that their existing products won’t be affected by the US ban and would still support Wi-Fi, Bluetooth and secure digital (SD) cards.
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Huawei was reinstated in the SD Association

A Huawei representative confirmed to Android Authority that the company’s membership with the SD Association was never outright cancelled — it was temporarily modified to ensure compliance with the U.S. Department of Commerce order.
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JEDEC has reinstated Huawei as well.
 
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