IBM CEO: Hiring Based on Skills Instead of College Degrees Vital for the Future of Tech

So glad I took three semesters of calculus and physics. It just proves how stupid I am by how i was waiting my time and money on classes and degrees. Good thing I was smart enough to teach myself computers afterwards.
 
Imagine spending years studying for a degree and being rejected for a job in favour of someone who left school at 16 and gained some 'skills' the company is interested in. You'd have to ask yourself if it was worth paying for further education.

I suspect the degree holder would progress much quicker and further than someone who stopped studying early.
If you’re a dev you don’t need a university degree: https://lambdaschool.com
 
Funny, all the people that I worked with wtihout degrees wanted to to go back to college to get them. They felt inferior to everyone that did have them.
 
Funny, all the people that I worked with wtihout degrees wanted to to go back to college to get them. They felt inferior to everyone that did have them.
There are many reasons for that...some good, some bad.
 
The problem revolves around the dilution of college degrees. Many degrees are worthless. A lot of them are only good as a "ticket" to enter a Masters program...which is only good as a "ticket" to be a teacher/professor in that specialty. Women's Studies, I'm looking at you.

Frivolous majors is the obvious offender. More pernicious is the watering down of other majors. Students have light course loads, but they are filled with mandatory courses that have nothing to do with their major. Want to get an accredited B.S. in Civil Engineering? Great...take some Women Studies courses (need to create a demand for all those Women's Studies Masters, donchaknow), some Gender Roles in a Diverse Society courses, etc. The excuse is that these courses are needed to produce a well-rounded graduate. The real reason is a payback for the government cash flooding the college loan system, and to create that demand for degrees which are worthless.

A college degree of today is NOT the same as a college degree of yesterday.

There is a sense that a college degree infers a level of intellectual superiority. But that harkens back to the past, when a degree meant something more.

It still shows that you're interested in "improving yourself" and that you've got the ability to follow a course of instruction and retain information. In that sense, it is can be a helpful indicator of trainability.

Whether actual experience or a degree is more important for a job is, I think, mostly dependent upon the specific job.
 
HR Interviewer: What qualifies you to do this job?
Me: I have years of experience and superior skill in this filed
HR Interviewer: What pieces of paper do you have to show you are qualified for this job?
Me: Here are a few examples of my work, showing I know how to do the job, and my skills excel in the required tasks.
HR Interviewer: But do you have any pieces of paper that state you are qualified for this job?
Me: While I do not have any pieces of paper that say I know how to do the job, I offer you several tangible examples of my skills
HR Interviewer: While your examples are good, without pieces of paper, I'm afraid we can't offer you a position. Go get some paper, and then we'll think you're qualified for this job.
 
When I interviewed for my current job (in a very technical field requiring highly specialized skills, needing about 10 years (minimum) to attain), there were two interviewers: a member of the technical specialty...and an HR maven.

The HR maven was the "power broker" of the pair.

The technical rep was just there as window dressing. It was HR who made the decision.

This was due to internal power struggles within the corporation.

I'm not a fan of this type of organizational structure. I am willing to bet it's always the HR type that requires the certification of ability by showing the degree, rather than interpreting someone's history of work. They simply don't have the ability to judge, other than ensuring a candidate has checked certain boxes...like having a degree. As well, even if they did have the knowledge to make a judgment call, if they did that and the candidate failed, then the HR person could lose. Bad judgment call vs. the HR who followed the bureaucratic checklist? Well, we know who will get fired when it all gets downsized...
 
Funny, all the people that I worked with wtihout degrees wanted to to go back to college to get them. They felt inferior to everyone that did have them.

It's called a "glass ceiling". Lot's of companies have them, where you can't be promoted beyond a certain point without a certain degree.

It's one of the dumbest practices I've ever seen from a lot a companies, and 9 out of 10 times at that wall you end up getting a "boss" with a degree who has no clue what he is doing and constantly having to ask those he is in charge of "how do i..."

Just promote the guy who knows what is going on and be done with it.
 
Well this is going to screw up the quote system, hire on merit not some fake pc percentage. Who would of thunk?
 
It's called a "glass ceiling". Lot's of companies have them, where you can't be promoted beyond a certain point without a certain degree.
Thanks I was wondering what the real reason was. Should have known.
 
Imagine spending years studying for a degree and being rejected for a job in favour of someone who left school at 16 and gained some 'skills' the company is interested in. You'd have to ask yourself if it was worth paying for further education.

I suspect the degree holder would progress much quicker and further than someone who stopped studying early.


Let's test that theory with the bottom line;

IT dude A get's a low end job paying lower wages, and in 5 years time works his way into a Journeyman Sysadmin Position with his 5 years of experience.

IT dude B goes to school, takes the average 5 years for his CS degree, graduates with $70K in school loan debt, and is now looking for someone who will take him with no experience.

Now we should expect that IT dude B will have an easier time of getting to the starting point that IT Dude A did, but get there he did so IT dude B has been earning money for 5 years while IT dude B has a load of debt that will cost him $100K+ to pay off before it's all done. If B tries to pay off his debt sooner then he has to really do without in life but A is doing fine and working on his 401K already.

The point being, dude A has one hell of a head start, money, and real experience, and if he applies himself to seriously learning the business he'll have the edge all the way. Keep in mind that there is nothing that stops dude A from pursuing higher education and a degree on the fly and his company may even help with the costs.

It all comes down to that very valid issue, work experience and how to get it. You can intern, you can get your start working small time IT outfits, you can join the military for it, there are paths.

Now the idea that big companies might start looking at degrees as less of a requirement, or proven skills as more of a determinator is a new twist, and it should give people pause.
 
Degrees tend to teach ways of thinking, rather than specific skills, thus resulting in more adaptible, open minded and innovative workers.

lol - "adaptable and open-minded" at most collage campuses these days means follow the leftest group think or you will be punished :rolleyes: Same crap existed in the late 80's/early 90's when I was going to school; they just weren't as overt about it. I don't know how anyone with an alternate non-left view of the world can stomach college these days.

I learned far more about ways to think from practical experience than I ever did from school. Well, one exception. I took a systems analyst class at community college from a retired IBMer that had done it for 40 years. He literally wrote the book - I referred to it decades after I took that class. Was the only class that was remotely practical or useful for me and I don't think it even counted as core credit - how nuts is that? Shoot, I wonder what I did with that book - handy as hell to review.
 
I think a college degree shows aptitude and potential. A person fresh out of college is a noob - but they were able to stick to something and pass their classes. Unless they did something on their own, they will not have experience and only have a general knowledge upon graduating.
An area tech people tend to neglect is the ability to communicate effectively. I know I hated certain classes (speaking, English/writing classes, business classes, etc) - but I use all of these areas frequently in my jobs. I think they make you a more valuable employee. There is room for a person that rarely interacts with other people, but they limit their career options. (TBH, a lot of people are ok with that - it's a personal choice.)
 
I totally believe experience is worth more than a college degree in some fields. So much can be learned on any subject without the need of a 4 year university course.

Absolutely. I've interviewed hundreds of IT candidates over the decades. Not once have my eyes dipped below the "Education" header. I don't care if you have a degree or do not. It's all about experience, past work success, attitude, personal drive, and how you will fit in with the team.
 
If someone requires a piece of paper to prove knowledge ... get one. Doesn't have to be a full four year degree. Yes, a lot of time HR needs to check a box about educational experience so having a certification can check that box whether HR knows the difference or not. If that's the way the game is played for the job you're looking for then that's the game you have to play. Having the piece of paper is rarely going to hurt you but it can help in various companies.
 
I think a lot of this depends on what job and degree we are talking about. If it is a position that requires technical skills that can be acquired with training outside of a typical university/college situation, then there might be less value to having a degree. However, if we are talking about a job that requires a thorough understanding of physics (or another area of science) in order to actually do your job, then you might really need a degree (and probably an advanced degree). There are probably very few examples of individuals who skipped out on college and ended up at AFRL or Sandia doing R&D.
 
Well, I don't know how it is now, but back in my day, a computer degree was a bunch of crap that I knew wouldn't apply, probably placed as filler and filter ( as well keeping proffessors employed i suppose). Not everything is like this of course.
 
I think a lot of this depends on what job and degree we are talking about. If it is a position that requires technical skills that can be acquired with training outside of a typical university/college situation, then there might be less value to having a degree. However, if we are talking about a job that requires a thorough understanding of physics (or another area of science) in order to actually do your job, then you might really need a degree (and probably an advanced degree). There are probably very few examples of individuals who skipped out on college and ended up at AFRL or Sandia doing R&D.

Yep. Some things you can do yourself as self-taught but after a point it becomes difficult. In many fields you'd end up working for 20 years to gather up sufficient experience to offset the university degree.
 
False, i dropped out of high school in grade 10 and am self taught in IT for the most part, put me and some college grad in a room and have a high pressure situation come up and watch them fail..

Many self taught people think outside of the box vs "some" people who have certs know how to read a book and write down the answers.

Wouldn't say it is outright false, it really depends on the person. I'm not super smart by any means, but I have always liked to find my own way to solve a problem in addition to any way I was taught. My Bachelors was more of a piece of paper that shows I can stick with something and not give up more than something that proves I know something. I became a Systems Engineer because I showed that I'm not just leveraging my piece of paper, but I am teaching myself through documentation and self experimentation to expand on a foundation which my degree played a part in. Not saying you are wrong because there are definitely self taught people who can't hold down a job because they just can't stick with anything, much like there are those who went to college only to copy answers from a book to have a piece of paper that they think makes them worth something in the working world. You have to prove yourself regardless.
 
I have no problem with this. Certs > Degree in IT anyway.

We have a PMP dude here, he's all educated, he's a "cert baby". He's always telling us "you can do this and you can do that" we told him to show us, that went nowhere.

So I can agree with you that certs beat a degree when it comes to the practical application of IT, but neither stands alone without experience to back them up. Experience, proven performance, that trumps all.
 
You can tell the intelligent people without the need for a degree. I just applied for a job that effectively made me take an IQ test to see how I ranked BEFORE a skills test. I don't need the job as I am working but it is a unique approach and I kind of like it. So companies ARE doing that if you are already in the industry for decades. If you're not, I don't know. I've finally attained the level that a degree isn't required for the position. Knowledge, experience and the ability to learn are.
 
I think a lot of this depends on what job and degree we are talking about. If it is a position that requires technical skills that can be acquired with training outside of a typical university/college situation, then there might be less value to having a degree. However, if we are talking about a job that requires a thorough understanding of physics (or another area of science) in order to actually do your job, then you might really need a degree (and probably an advanced degree). There are probably very few examples of individuals who skipped out on college and ended up at AFRL or Sandia doing R&D.

It's not so much hiring people for entry level positions that require a degree that are so problematic I think, it's placing more value on a degree than experience, especially in-house experience, for positions above entry level. I'm a firm believer that giving everyone you employ the chance to climb to the top is a very underrated perk by the higher-ups. Obviously you don't pass on a ringer like Jim Keller when you can get them, but you also don't put a wall in front of your most gifted people just because they didn't happen to get the right piece of paper when they were younger.
 
It's not so much hiring people for entry level positions that require a degree that are so problematic I think, it's placing more value on a degree than experience, especially in-house experience, for positions above entry level. I'm a firm believer that giving everyone you employ the chance to climb to the top is a very underrated perk by the higher-ups. Obviously you don't pass on a ringer like Jim Keller when you can get them, but you also don't put a wall in front of your most gifted people just because they didn't happen to get the right piece of paper when they were younger.


But that's exactly the issue many like myself face.

Situation, government contract supporting an Army development lab contract. Prime contractor won't hire anyone without a degree, seems they are working on their "pedigree" lol, they push all the old timers without degrees, like myself, off onto the subcontractor companies in the "team". Thing is, these mid-tier corporate leaders see such things in the light of "who can move up" and frankly, without a degree, no one is moving up beyond senior lead positions without a degree. By requiring a degree for their own people, and pushing off non-degree holders to the subs, they ensure that all of the leadership positions are their own people, the subs are just their in name to keep the government happy.

Of course many like myself have no desire at all to "climb the ladder". We are very happy right where we are, in our fiefdom where we can take care of the customer properly, tell leadership to blow, and wait for real retirement. The hardest thing we have to do is stay motivated to learn, and not kill our senior engineer who's go the people skills of an incontinent moose.
 
I think a college degree shows aptitude and potential. A person fresh out of college is a noob - but they were able to stick to something and pass their classes. Unless they did something on their own, they will not have experience and only have a general knowledge upon graduating.
An area tech people tend to neglect is the ability to communicate effectively. I know I hated certain classes (speaking, English/writing classes, business classes, etc) - but I use all of these areas frequently in my jobs. I think they make you a more valuable employee. There is room for a person that rarely interacts with other people, but they limit their career options. (TBH, a lot of people are ok with that - it's a personal choice.)

LIKE THAT GUY AT WORK THAT ALWAYS TYPES IN ALL CAPS. ALL THE TIME. NO MATTTER WHAT. AND IS FULL O F, MISSPELLINGS AND BAD PNCUATION.
 
When I interviewed for my current job (in a very technical field requiring highly specialized skills, needing about 10 years (minimum) to attain), there were two interviewers: a member of the technical specialty...and an HR maven.

The HR maven was the "power broker" of the pair.

The technical rep was just there as window dressing. It was HR who made the decision.

This was due to internal power struggles within the corporation.

I'm not a fan of this type of organizational structure. I am willing to bet it's always the HR type that requires the certification of ability by showing the degree, rather than interpreting someone's history of work. They simply don't have the ability to judge, other than ensuring a candidate has checked certain boxes...like having a degree. As well, even if they did have the knowledge to make a judgment call, if they did that and the candidate failed, then the HR person could lose. Bad judgment call vs. the HR who followed the bureaucratic checklist? Well, we know who will get fired when it all gets downsized...

The importance of this problem cannot be understated. I had my 'Dilbert' moment when I interviewed for a job that wanted five years of Java... in '97. :rolleyes: The number of companies that try to order up employees like pizza are simply astounding. At the company I work for now, technical hires are done by the department supervisor with input from HR instead of the opposite. Which is very nice!
 
But that's exactly the issue many like myself face.

Situation, government contract supporting an Army development lab contract. Prime contractor won't hire anyone without a degree, seems they are working on their "pedigree" lol, they push all the old timers without degrees, like myself, off onto the subcontractor companies in the "team". Thing is, these mid-tier corporate leaders see such things in the light of "who can move up" and frankly, without a degree, no one is moving up beyond senior lead positions without a degree. By requiring a degree for their own people, and pushing off non-degree holders to the subs, they ensure that all of the leadership positions are their own people, the subs are just their in name to keep the government happy.

Of course many like myself have no desire at all to "climb the ladder". We are very happy right where we are, in our fiefdom where we can take care of the customer properly, tell leadership to blow, and wait for real retirement. The hardest thing we have to do is stay motivated to learn, and not kill our senior engineer who's go the people skills of an incontinent moose.

By contrast, I'm a supervisor on a technical help desk that contracts for the Army (we now support Navy and AF) and I've interviewed and hired many, many individuals. I too make note of their educational background but it has little bearing on whether or not I will hire them. They must have their certifications and they must do well on our technical performance analysis or they will not be selected. I've seen hundreds of resumes that make people look great on paper but when put to the test they seem like a totally different person.

We require certain certifications to meet Government standards regardless of your educational background. We have a wide range of education from having multiple degrees (some have even have their masters) and people with just a diploma. Some of our highest paid and highest ranking individuals do not have a degree. At the end of the day it's just a sheet of paper.
 
We require certain certifications to meet Government standards regardless of your educational background. We have a wide range of education from having multiple degrees (some have even have their masters) and people with just a diploma. Some of our highest paid and highest ranking individuals do not have a degree. At the end of the day it's just a sheet of paper.
A cert is one test. A college degree shows a breadth of knowledge and the ability to teach yourself. I am only referring to "technical degrees". Not lib arts.
 
I have a college degree and I have skills, however those people without college degrees and without much skills are getting paid higher just because they joined the workforce sooner.
 
By contrast, I'm a supervisor on a technical help desk that contracts for the Army (we now support Navy and AF) and I've interviewed and hired many, many individuals. I too make note of their educational background but it has little bearing on whether or not I will hire them. They must have their certifications and they must do well on our technical performance analysis or they will not be selected. I've seen hundreds of resumes that make people look great on paper but when put to the test they seem like a totally different person.

We require certain certifications to meet Government standards regardless of your educational background. We have a wide range of education from having multiple degrees (some have even have their masters) and people with just a diploma. Some of our highest paid and highest ranking individuals do not have a degree. At the end of the day it's just a sheet of paper.

No different here, we're in the same boat as far as government requirements. Someone's getting kickbacks from Comptia if you ask me, but that's just my opinion :sneaky:

Usually I only need Sec+ CE for a position, but I had one that decided to "raise the bar" and made me jump through my ass and get my CASP cert. I let it go this last cycle, didn't really need it, no way I am likely to accept a job for that other loser company, and all that cert ever did for me was get me a lot of calls from people with strange accents for IA jobs I don't want.
 
I realise this may seem unfair to the graduate - they have to start somewhere after all, and I do see the problem here - however it has also been my experience that graduates, whilst they may be incredibly bright, and hard working, and have mastered their degree, are actually a victim of the syllabus for the course, coming out with what is essentially a degree which doesn't provide them with much real-world applicable knowledge. Naturally this is not always the case, and it will vary greatly, but as others have pointed out it is not an infrequent occurrence to come across a very qualified person who can do absolutely nothing at all, other than study well.

Years ago when I worked for a computer reseller, I would be sent to vendors training classes (needed to keep the certifications).
There was a person in a couple of the classes from one vendor who had virtually no hands on experience as they where a manager at their company.
When it came to the labs in the class, they where clueless, yet they where still certified in the product.
 
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False, i dropped out of high school in grade 10 and am self taught in IT for the most part, put me and some college grad in a room and have a high pressure situation come up and watch them fail..

Many self taught people think outside of the box vs "some" people who have certs know how to read a book and write down the answers.

Ta-da! I did pretty much the same. Dropped out at grade 11, got my GED and started to work. Started in a small computer repair shop and moved up to where I am now in a Data Center for the past 9 years.

I'm the most under qualified person on paper but yet I'm the go to person.

Yet... I have a hard time finding a new higher paying/skill job because I lack a piece of paper that says I went to school.
 
It's called a "glass ceiling". Lot's of companies have them, where you can't be promoted beyond a certain point without a certain degree.

It's one of the dumbest practices I've ever seen from a lot a companies, and 9 out of 10 times at that wall you end up getting a "boss" with a degree who has no clue what he is doing and constantly having to ask those he is in charge of "how do i..."

Just promote the guy who knows what is going on and be done with it.

This.


I only have a 2 year degree from the local community college as that's all I could afford.
I know I've been passed over or not been hired for jobs because I didn't have a 4 year degree.
Because of this, I've worked at smaller companies that value skill and work ethic over a piece of paper.

Over the years I've looked at surveys that show average pay rates by education level, and I've always made significantly more that the average person with a 4 year degree.
Most the time I've even made more than the average person with a masters degree or even a doctorate.

In a way this shows how worthless some degrees are.
 
Ta-da! I did pretty much the same. Dropped out at grade 11, got my GED and started to work. Started in a small computer repair shop and moved up to where I am now in a Data Center for the past 9 years.

I'm the most under qualified person on paper but yet I'm the go to person.

Yet... I have a hard time finding a new higher paying/skill job because I lack a piece of paper that says I went to school.


And if you are happy being a techy it's all cool. I never wanted management of any kind, had enough of being the boss and the stickee when I was in the Army. After I retired I wanted nothing to do with being anyone's boss. IT was a perfect fit for that once you get your bosses to get it, that you don't want to be anything other than a Senior/Engineer/Consultant type. Not going to do projects in MS Project, attend big meetings every week, do people's annual reviews, and get called on why so and so fucked up or wasn't at work.

But on the off chance someone is younger and does want to climb the ladder a bit, get into the higher pay scales, etc, a degree is hard to get by without unless the company is smallish or the boss man loves you and wants his daughter to have your kids (y)

I don't want to take anything away from people who worked and earned their degrees. They have their place.
 
This.


I only have a 2 year degree from the local community college as that's all I could afford.
I know I've been passed over or not been hired for jobs because I didn't have a 4 year degree.
Because of this, I've worked at smaller companies that value skill and work ethic over a piece of paper.

Over the years I've looked at surveys that show average pay rates by education level, and I've always made significantly more that the average person with a 4 year degree.
Most the time I've even made more than the average person with a masters degree or even a doctorate.

In a way this shows how worthless some degrees are.


In another way, it shows that for large companies, degrees matter because of things like ITIL and those other corporate level certifications businesses like to acquire. It's mostly because of those business level certifications that companies have a glass ceiling and insist on their people getting degrees. That's how they sell themselves, by those certs. That's also why my own company wasn't happy when I dropped my CASP cert, because it reduced their numbers of higher certified and qualified people for future contracts. Sure, I didn't need CASP for what I want to do, but my company liked my having it for stuff they want to do.

It is what it is. But I'm the last guy that will go faulting someone for staying where they are happy, it's what I do.
 
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