Gran Turismo's Developers Are Working on Their Own Real-Time Ray-Tracing Tech

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At this month’s SIGGRAPH Asia 2018, Gran Turismo developers Polyphony Digital introduced a new, real-time ray-tracing tech that was created entirely in-house. The most recent title in the franchise, Gran Turismo Sport, teased the benefits of ray tracing with vehicle reflections, but Polyphony’s latest undertaking is expected to do that better, and in real time. Some say this alludes to the potential power of the PlayStation 5.

Polyphony hasn’t confirmed what they plan to use this tech for, simply saying they’re “still exploring […] the possibilities” but it seems fair to assume real-time ray tracing will be included in the next iteration of Gran Turismo. If that’s the case, what might that say about the makeup of the PS5? The PS4 is powered by AMD tech and most have assumed the PS5 will be, too. Of course, AMD have indicated they’re planning to go head to head with NVIDIA on ray tracing in 2019, so let’s not jump to any wild “RTX-powered PS5!” conclusions.
 
Polyphony should be busy doing a proper Gran Turismo for the PS4.

Because if they don't, then mark my words, they're dead to me.
 
If the "navi" parts don't include tensor cores I would be extremely shocked. Tensor is what allows Ray tracing to work... Nvidia didn't invent some new Tracing core, they are simply leveraging the tensor cores that where on their chips anyway. (which honestly may be an early shot based on their inside knowledge of AMD/Sony planning to roll out such a feature with PS5) Volta was basically a stock google tensor flow part... the RTX Turing cards simply extend that API in hardware with the main advantage of being able to run the matrix calculations at lower integer precision (Int16 / int 8) which is perfect for a handful of less accurate AI math... and also ray tracing you may be doing for say a real time video game.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_transfer_matrix_analysis
Using matrix math to calculate optical rays is very old math.... tensor flow hardware has simply made it possible to do those calculations in a game engine.
 
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Chris_B said:
Spooging over reflections is the new "thing" it seems.
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New thing? It has ALWAYS been the thing for GT. Polyphony has always tried to push hardware to the limit and push new tech. Its one of the reasons new GT games take so damn long to make these days.

M76 said:
Polyphony should be busy doing a proper Gran Turismo for the PS4.

Because if they don't, then mark my words, they're dead to me.
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Why would they focus on the PS4 when next generation is only a couple years, at most, away?
 
Derangel said:
Why would they focus on the PS4 when next generation is only a couple years, at most, away?
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Too not piss off long standing fans of theirs? This is the first PS generation that didn't have a proper Gran Turismo game released. All previous gens had two! I fully expected them to get out a proper game for the PS4 that's why I invested in a PS4 PRO. Because I was confident that they wouldn't dare entirely skip this generation.
 
M76 said:
Too not piss off long standing fans of theirs? This is the first PS generation that didn't have a proper Gran Turismo game released. All previous gens had two! I fully expected them to get out a proper game for the PS4 that's why I invested in a PS4 PRO. Because I was confident that they wouldn't dare entirely skip this generation.
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It seems all the AAA studios have been very good at pissing off their customers the last year or two. Not sure why Polyphony would be special. I would say prepare to be disappointed. There is still a very good chance that Sony and AMD can push PS5 out the door for a late (nov / early dec Xmas 2019 launch) I would say as a GT fan you may if your lucky get a PS4 version minus ray tracing and whatever other hotness they may hype about the ps5.
 
We've been spooging over reflections since Day One. The entire scene is just a simulation of light sources and reflections of those, or more accurately, a construct designed to approximate such a simulation. We've been building cars out of Lego to this point. Sure, the cars have gotten bigger, more detailed, and more capable, but they are still Lego cars. So now, nVidia lets us build a decent looking Lego car, but with various sized lawnmower engines. It looks pretty cool, but it sputters about and can't really go very fast. You can build bigger kits that look even better, and go even faster, but still just a Lego car.

Ray Tracing has always been the end game, we're just finally seeing the hardware that can do it justice (sort of) trickle down into the consumer space. Ray tracing is so heavy, we've been chopping scenes into smaller and smaller triangles while layering on more and more expensive rendering and processing techniques because it was easier to do it that way with available tech. With nVidia apparently not crippling the tensor cores (for now), they also dropped the cost of entry for all sorts of scientific work.

Whether you think the RTX launch was a dumpster fire or not, it was still the start of ray tracing for the masses. It's not going away, but we still have a while before it's the base rather then an addon.
 
I find SSR ugly af so rayed reflections are welcome.
Chris_B said:
Tell me again what was the biggest point that nvidia were showing in their battlefield ray tracing demo? Reflections. We all know its about realistic light simulation but reflections currently seems to be the main thing that are highlighted in this.
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Did you see the Metro demo?
 
M76 said:
Too not piss off long standing fans of theirs? This is the first PS generation that didn't have a proper Gran Turismo game released. All previous gens had two! I fully expected them to get out a proper game for the PS4 that's why I invested in a PS4 PRO. Because I was confident that they wouldn't dare entirely skip this generation.
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With the increasingly long time it takes them to make full GT games I would not be at all surprised if they skip this gen. Either that or it will come out sometime next year. If its not announced by the end of Q2 next year I'd expect not to see it until the PS5 is out.
 
Full Otto said:
We've been spooging over reflections since Day One. The entire scene is just a simulation of light sources and reflections of those, or more accurately, a construct designed to approximate such a simulation. We've been building cars out of Lego to this point. Sure, the cars have gotten bigger, more detailed, and more capable, but they are still Lego cars. So now, nVidia lets us build a decent looking Lego car, but with various sized lawnmower engines. It looks pretty cool, but it sputters about and can't really go very fast. You can build bigger kits that look even better, and go even faster, but still just a Lego car.

Ray Tracing has always been the end game, we're just finally seeing the hardware that can do it justice (sort of) trickle down into the consumer space. Ray tracing is so heavy, we've been chopping scenes into smaller and smaller triangles while layering on more and more expensive rendering and processing techniques because it was easier to do it that way with available tech. With nVidia apparently not crippling the tensor cores (for now), they also dropped the cost of entry for all sorts of scientific work.

Whether you think the RTX launch was a dumpster fire or not, it was still the start of ray tracing for the masses. It's not going away, but we still have a while before it's the base rather then an addon.
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Yep. And the transistor budgets will start to change as the ray tracing ops start replacing rasterization ops. Reminds me of the anti-electric car crowd who just a few short years ago said electric cars will never succeed. And here we are and every major auto producer is going full steam ahead with e-vehicles.
 
Not the first time they've done something like this in house, they developed tessellation in house for GT5 on the PS3.
 
M76 said:
Too not piss off long standing fans of theirs? This is the first PS generation that didn't have a proper Gran Turismo game released. All previous gens had two! I fully expected them to get out a proper game for the PS4 that's why I invested in a PS4 PRO. Because I was confident that they wouldn't dare entirely skip this generation.
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I'll also point out that Gran Turismo 5's development was a shit show with that paid demo. Years of delays, and GT6 didn't even get released until the PS4 had already been out a month with such little fanfare and an odd lack of marketing that it took a coworker of mine mentioning it being out when I didn't even know it was in development. I'm a guy that had owned every GT game up until that point and after being so complete underwhelmed by GT5 to hell with buying 6.

If skipping the ps4 means that PD doesn't halfass the next main game, that's fine with me. I'd rather developers not feel like they have some mandatory target of x number of games per year or system, and just release quality games when they're done. If you bought a PS4 pro for a game that's not even announced yet, that's your fault.
 
Merc1138 said:
I'll also point out that Gran Turismo 5's development was a shit show with that paid demo. Years of delays, and GT6 didn't even get released until the PS4 had already been out a month with such little fanfare and an odd lack of marketing that it took a coworker of mine mentioning it being out when I didn't even know it was in development. I'm a guy that had owned every GT game up until that point and after being so complete underwhelmed by GT5 to hell with buying 6.

If skipping the ps4 means that PD doesn't halfass the next main game, that's fine with me. I'd rather developers not feel like they have some mandatory target of x number of games per year or system, and just release quality games when they're done. If you bought a PS4 pro for a game that's not even announced yet, that's your fault.
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I didn't follow the development of GT5, I was quite late to buy it because it took some time before the PS3 got to a price point where I could justify getting one. And I enjoyed the hell out of GT5, I think it was very good. I especially liked that they kept releasing new content for it for a long time after it's release. All taken into account I think GT5 was a better game than GT6. GT6 just seemed like 5 2.0. It was completely unnecessary, they could just kept releasing new content for 5, and updating that. I never even finished GT6's GT mode. But I did finish GT5 twice.

I agree there is no need for two games in a series for a single console generation. But having none of a platform seller title, is completely unacceptable. Just as it was unacceptable for them to not include at least GT1 in the playstation classic.
 
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ChadD said:
It seems all the AAA studios have been very good at pissing off their customers the last year or two. Not sure why Polyphony would be special. I would say prepare to be disappointed. There is still a very good chance that Sony and AMD can push PS5 out the door for a late (nov / early dec Xmas 2019 launch) I would say as a GT fan you may if your lucky get a PS4 version minus ray tracing and whatever other hotness they may hype about the ps5.
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I think at this point it's unlikely that they'll release a full GT game for the PS4. But that doesn't mean I can't call them out on it. On the contrary, all the more reason to get mad. If they still manage to squeeze one in before the end of the generation I'd be pleasantly surprised.
 
Gran Turismo is like watching your oh my god that guy was so fun to be around Uncle succumb to substance addiction because he just wouldn't listen to anyone trying to help him out........ps: those of you who think that Gran Turismo: SPORT is PD's "Final Form", you're mistaken...their final evolution before they achieve total enlightenment is for Gran Turismo to ultimately become Night Driver.
hqdefault.jpg


Gran Turismo: Next? Zero. Fucks. Given. Six cars, two tracks, all recreated by hand and carbon paper for ultimate, pure accuracy. The Ulitimate Racing Experience. Purity of the Driving Emotion. Or something equally melodramatic but pointless in the real world. No track details to distract the driver, no track-side details to cloud the drivers judgment. Other cars? Why! The pure driver races the track. Sounds? In your helmet surrounded by asbestos, the only sound the driver should hear is their own heart beating with adreneline!

And on and on and.....
 
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The Forza series is eating GT’s lunch. They should focus more on making fun games and not over designing every system possible to the point where they ruin the game.

Hell at this point they haven’t even made a “real” GT game for PS4 even though it’s the leading console this generation.
 
M76 said:
I didn't follow the development of GT5, I was quite late to buy it because it took some time before the PS3 got to a price point where I could justify getting one. And I enjoyed the hell out of GT5, I think it was very good. I especially liked that they kept releasing new content for it for a long time after it's release. All taken into account I think GT5 was a better game than GT6. GT6 just seemed like 5 2.0. It was completely unnecessary, they could just kept releasing new content for 5, and updating that. I never even finished GT6's GT mode. But I did finish GT5 twice.

I agree there is no need for two games in a series for a single console generation. But having none of a platform seller title, is completely unacceptable. Just as it was unacceptable for them to not include at least GT1 in the playstation classic.
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GT1 and 2 not being on the ps classic are the two games I'd actually give them a pass on, because it's probably a licensing nightmare for the music and cars. That said, considering how the ps classic turned out, probably wouldn't want to play it on that piece of crap anyway.

As far as 5, it was originally announced in '04 or '05? Which of course made people assume it would be a ps3 launch title, was completely scrapped and rebuilt from the ground up at one point, and of course because of the processor in the ps3 the lead guy at PD complained about programming for the system, then we of course had an announcement of a GT thing being available, and it was just the GTHD demo, then when something else got announced finally it was just GT5 Prologue, the announcements about finally including a proper damage model and then having it turn out to be basically non-existent(slamming head-on into a wall at 100mph would just crumple the bumper cover, warp the hood a little bit, and maybe cause a little fender damage without usually even damaging the headlights) that wasn't even in the campaign mode(seriously wtf? maybe they added it later). I'm sure maybe GT5 got patched to not suck, but after years of waiting on it, and having preordered it(ugh, I just remembered the stupid cars limited to certain retailers so you had to buy the game 5 or 6 times to have all of them) it was a massive disappointment.
 
So released sometime in 2023 maybe?

They take so long with GT games that you can see the 'development growth rings' in the game.
 
Merc1138 said:
GT1 and 2 not being on the ps classic are the two games I'd actually give them a pass on, because it's probably a licensing nightmare for the music and cars. That said, considering how the ps classic turned out, probably wouldn't want to play it on that piece of crap anyway.

As far as 5, it was originally announced in '04 or '05? Which of course made people assume it would be a ps3 launch title, was completely scrapped and rebuilt from the ground up at one point, and of course because of the processor in the ps3 the lead guy at PD complained about programming for the system, then we of course had an announcement of a GT thing being available, and it was just the GTHD demo, then when something else got announced finally it was just GT5 Prologue, the announcements about finally including a proper damage model and then having it turn out to be basically non-existent(slamming head-on into a wall at 100mph would just crumple the bumper cover, warp the hood a little bit, and maybe cause a little fender damage without usually even damaging the headlights) that wasn't even in the campaign mode(seriously wtf? maybe they added it later). I'm sure maybe GT5 got patched to not suck, but after years of waiting on it, and having preordered it(ugh, I just remembered the stupid cars limited to certain retailers so you had to buy the game 5 or 6 times to have all of them) it was a massive disappointment.
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OK, but what does any of that have to do with not releasing a game for PS4 at all?
 
M76 said:
I didn't follow the development of GT5, I was quite late to buy it because it took some time before the PS3 got to a price point where I could justify getting one. And I enjoyed the hell out of GT5, I think it was very good. I especially liked that they kept releasing new content for it for a long time after it's release. All taken into account I think GT5 was a better game than GT6. GT6 just seemed like 5 2.0. It was completely unnecessary, they could just kept releasing new content for 5, and updating that. I never even finished GT6's GT mode. But I did finish GT5 twice.

I agree there is no need for two games in a series for a single console generation. But having none of a platform seller title, is completely unacceptable. Just as it was unacceptable for them to not include at least GT1 in the playstation classic.
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GT6 had a better career mode and physics, in my opinion. The only reason I didn't play it more was they somehow managed to regress the multiplayer. Removing Shuffle mode in GT6 was a big mistake.
Merc1138 said:
GT1 and 2 not being on the ps classic are the two games I'd actually give them a pass on, because it's probably a licensing nightmare for the music and cars. That said, considering how the ps classic turned out, probably wouldn't want to play it on that piece of crap anyway.

As far as 5, it was originally announced in '04 or '05? Which of course made people assume it would be a ps3 launch title, was completely scrapped and rebuilt from the ground up at one point, and of course because of the processor in the ps3 the lead guy at PD complained about programming for the system, then we of course had an announcement of a GT thing being available, and it was just the GTHD demo, then when something else got announced finally it was just GT5 Prologue, the announcements about finally including a proper damage model and then having it turn out to be basically non-existent(slamming head-on into a wall at 100mph would just crumple the bumper cover, warp the hood a little bit, and maybe cause a little fender damage without usually even damaging the headlights) that wasn't even in the campaign mode(seriously wtf? maybe they added it later). I'm sure maybe GT5 got patched to not suck, but after years of waiting on it, and having preordered it(ugh, I just remembered the stupid cars limited to certain retailers so you had to buy the game 5 or 6 times to have all of them) it was a massive disappointment.
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GT5 never sucked. I put more hours into it than any GT game previously.
 
GT5 at launch had possibly the worst game menus and game flow I’ve ever seen in a game. The racing was good, however the stuff between the races was glacial and frustrating.

I still have nightmares about the process of unlocking a new car... First you need to find it buried like four menus deep, then you wait forever during load time before the headlights to show up building the anticipation. Out of the fog rolls another version of a Daihatsu Shitbox, then you get sad and back out of a million more menus just to do something useful :p

They fixed some of the menu mess in patches, however the game lost me by then.
 
M76 said:
OK, but what does any of that have to do with not releasing a game for PS4 at all?
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I'd rather they didn't, and end up releasing more garbage just because people feel like they need to, and instead take the time to actually put some effort into the game.

Thought that was obvious.
 
TAP said:
Ray tracing isnt about reflections...
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As far as rendering's concerned it doesn't matter whether it's clear coat or GI (eg Metro), it's all about reflections. That's why there's an 'R' in BRDF.

Actually, shiny car games are probably the ideal use for RT in its current state. Makes much more sense than all the polished surfaces in Battlefield.
 
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Merc1138 said:
I'd rather they didn't, and end up releasing more garbage just because people feel like they need to, and instead take the time to actually put some effort into the game.

Thought that was obvious.
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Today's Gamers: we want games and we want them now.

Studios: okay fine

Today's Gamers: Booooo this game sucks its nothing but a half arsed cash grab etc, Death threats, Rape threats and Review Bombing Ensues.
 
Gran Turismo is like a really good looking woman that has the personality of a rock. And after looking up their sales it proves that the game has in fact lost its way.
 
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