Could Microsoft Release a Desktop Linux?

wicktr0n_ said:
Winux could effectively kill off macOS.
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IgYAAtD.jpg
 
Mazzspeed said:
EEE doesn't work with open source. You can't outspend or buy out a platform that isn't solely dependent on profit and shareholders to survive.
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Due to US software patents I wouldn't be 100% sure of that. I'm sure they're trying to figure out how to infiltrate the ecosystem and then patent or licence block key parts of it in order to kill it. Never trust the devil.

Microsoft is 'allowing' linux companies to use its patents for free. But for how long? This is actually extremely concerning if distributions start to use patented functions in critical system parts. Nothing stops MS from revoking the permission and try to kill them. The only way would be a written agreement for a perpetual right to use, otherwise I wouldn't touch them.

Damn, this means I have to get accustomed with BSD.
 
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B00nie said:
Not true. MacOS is not even available for PCs so how could a PC OS kill it?
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I find MacOS very easy to run on most PC hardware ;)

But is Microsoft releasing a Linux distro a positive impact for Linux? What if it overtakes Ubuntu? Not sure what the ramifications could be.
 
No, the main reason I would believe is Linux was always opensource while MacOS was always completely closed off, Windows is an in between option most people prefer, >80% market share in the PC OS space basically means they have zero incentive to do such a thing, Linux, the bastard OS, while nice is still a Novelty, at most I have seen people set it up but never really use it because its the better option for the average user. Ideally there is to much attached to the Windows ecosystem, to have a complete switch over. Linux has its place and its uses, but not as a mainstream OS for computers. I really don't feel like typing sudo aptget every freaking time I want to update or install something or have to go through all the crap just to set region and keyboard type every freaking time..no thanks that crap doesn't belong mainstream.

Can I see Microsoft making a Linux Distro version....maybe as a novelty
 
BloodyIron said:
Where's the haters at now?

If you want to know how to game on Linux, get started with other Linux stuff or whatever. Just ask me your question and I'll help you out ;)

Btw, Windows replacing their micro kernel with a monolithic Linux kernel has very big technical hurdles. There's far better ways to do it. But the writing's on the wall. Windows has a limited lifespan. People are fed up with this shit like build 1809.
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They wouldn't have to. If this was a viable way forward they just drop the belief they can do anything at kernel level and deal with userland only

Think about the end user. They care about running their applications and they all reside in userland (games etc) so it's just about providing a win10 DM and boosting WINE compatibility.

What would get hit is the parasitic businesses that spawned that make software for Windows BUT jack into the kernel in some really broken ways.
Antivirus (remember the naught tricks they were doing and MS basically blocked updates on those machine).
Anti-cheat software for games (jack right in like a root kit to "stop" cheating)

These things just do not work and these would go out of business as they rely on the really low level nature of windows. An area that Joe average doesn't care about.

It will be these paracitic businesses that will fight/lobby/sue MS to keep their fragile kernel space viable as they exist to either plug those holes or exploit those holes.
 
naib said:
They wouldn't have to. If this was a viable way forward they just drop the belief they can do anything at kernel level and deal with userland only

Think about the end user. They care about running their applications and they all reside in userland (games etc) so it's just about providing a win10 DM and boosting WINE compatibility.

What would get hit is the parasitic businesses that spawned that make software for Windows BUT jack into the kernel in some really broken ways.
Antivirus (remember the naught tricks they were doing and MS basically blocked updates on those machine).
Anti-cheat software for games (jack right in like a root kit to "stop" cheating)

These things just do not work and these would go out of business as they rely on the really low level nature of windows. An area that Joe average doesn't care about.

It will be these paracitic businesses that will fight/lobby/sue MS to keep their fragile kernel space viable as they exist to either plug those holes or exploit those holes.
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Great point, I didn't even think of that. But after reading this, I need to take a shower. Ew!
 
Shadowed said:
I find MacOS very easy to run on most PC hardware ;)

But is Microsoft releasing a Linux distro a positive impact for Linux? What if it overtakes Ubuntu? Not sure what the ramifications could be.
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You've never been legally able to install OSX or MacOS on a PC.
 
MS internal meeting:
How bad can we screw up Windows with our next release?
Screw Windows, lets mess up a Linux Distro!
Okay, Debian for the Win!
 
Pieter3dnow said:
The question might be better put as in how bad will MS screw their Linux distro up ;)
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Not really a question. They would screw it up in sooooo many ways.

Let's face it. They are not Apple. There is no way they could market that to make it sound like an elite decision to use that product.
 
A desktop operating system needs to have stable kernel driver APIs. Linux does not and will never have it as long as Torvalds is in charge.

You can’t have every update breaking drivers left and right. I can still use audio drivers for Windows 10 that were written for Vista. Linux drivers need to be refactored so often it hurts.
 
chris7191 said:
A desktop operating system needs to have stable kernel driver APIs. Linux does not and will never have it as long as Torvalds is in charge.

You can’t have every update breaking drivers left and right. I can still use audio drivers for Windows 10 that were written for Vista. Linux drivers need to be refactored so often it hurts.
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Uh oh, now you have done it. Some are now going to come in and say you are doing it wrong, you do not know what you are doing or clearly have not used Linux in years. There will then be that one who will tell you do not have to update your kernel, even when you may need to for some reason. :D
 
BloodyIron said:
Where's the haters at now?

If you want to know how to game on Linux, get started with other Linux stuff or whatever. Just ask me your question and I'll help you out ;)

Btw, Windows replacing their micro kernel with a monolithic Linux kernel has very big technical hurdles. There's far better ways to do it. But the writing's on the wall. Windows has a limited lifespan. People are fed up with this shit like build 1809.
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Oh good, another *Insert Year* is the year of Linux. :D I could probably take you more seriously if you did not use your offer for help as nothing more than a thinly veiled crusade against Microsoft. Oh, you are one of those haters, by the looks of it.

There is no writing on the wall, Windows is does not have a limited lifespan, in and of itself. People in general are not fed up, just that you would like them to be. Or as I said before, NOPE, there will be no Microsoft Desktop Linux.
 
trparky said:
Unfortunately corporations are part of this Capitalist economy that we have in the Western world. There's really no escaping it. Besides, most of the biggest contributors to Linux are big companies that include Intel, Red Hat, IBM, Samsung, Google, and AMD.
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You can't entirely avoid capitalism but you can certainly use it to your advantage. Right now the OS market is a joke with MacOS only working on Apple hardware and Android and iOS stuck with whatever hardware it's married to. The PC is the only true platform where you have a choice what OS you install, and certainly Microsoft has been trying to be as Apple like as it can. So by giving Microsoft the benefit of the doubt we're going straight back to being a monopoly again.

All these companies can contribute to the project but in no way can they dictate how we compile this code. Though I'm sure that's what Microsoft is trying to do with Linux by locking down the devices so we have to hack them to do anything with them.


Mazzspeed said:
Android's updating process can in no way be compared to the updating process under desktop Linux. The updating process under desktop Linux is as close to perfect as you'll get and Microsoft creating a Linux distro doesn't make open source any less open source. If you want to avoid a monopoly, you're not going to avoid it by sticking with the NT kernel and all the issues that come with it.
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I was one of those people who bought those cheap Android Kodi boxes and man did they suck. Can't update them and I'm limited to what I can do, but it is entirely made of open source Android. Because these piece of shits end up dying within a month or two I ended up buying a Zotac Zbox off Ebay for like $80 and it came with a 320GB drive and 4GB of ram. While it came with Hospital software that someone should have erased I was able to wipe it clean and install Linux Mint.

Part of the problem with the enviable move to ARM CPU's is that it'll likely come with locked down hardware. Look at Apple's T2 chip where you can't install Linux but you can boot into Linux. Open source OS but no actual way to use the hardware as you please. Microsoft's goal with their Linux distro is to Embrace Extend and eventually Extinguish.

wicktr0n_ said:
Winux could effectively kill off macOS.
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Apple is trying hard to do it themselves. They want you to get on iOS.
 
If they do, probably some type of subscription service. I think that was the plan with Win 10 but they botched the rollout of 10 with telemetry, forced installs of 10, loss of control, and now even the updates have to be viewed as suspect. Guessing that MS figures that charging a fee for consumer level Win 10 would be the final straw that forced a mass exodus to anything else. But offering a 'Free' switch to MS Linux with a $x/month maintenance fee might just work. "Escape all your Windows 10 problems. Just install Microsoft Linux and purchase our support package and life will be simple again."

Of course IBM might try it first. They have to recover the purchase price for Red Hat somehow.
 
The Microsoft hate on this forum never disappoints.

Windows 8/10 work great, and everyone that seems to continue to cry about it just remind me of the people that cried about... well... every new release of Windows.
 
BSmith said:
Not really a question. They would screw it up in sooooo many ways.
Let's face it. They are not Apple. There is no way they could market that to make it sound like an elite decision to use that product.
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There not really good at anything at this point. I'm just hoping that if they release something they do a better job of supporting it then they do with Windows
chris7191 said:
A desktop operating system needs to have stable kernel driver APIs. Linux does not and will never have it as long as Torvalds is in charge.

You can’t have every update breaking drivers left and right. I can still use audio drivers for Windows 10 that were written for Vista. Linux drivers need to be refactored so often it hurts.
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You obviously do not know what you are talking about. Torvalds made sure that if it is broken then it is only for a few reasons and not on a whim.

DukenukemX said:
I was one of those people who bought those cheap Android Kodi boxes and man did they suck. Can't update them and I'm limited to what I can do, but it is entirely made of open source Android. Because these piece of shits end up dying within a month or two I ended up buying a Zotac Zbox off Ebay for like $80 and it came with a 320GB drive and 4GB of ram. While it came with Hospital software that someone should have erased I was able to wipe it clean and install Linux Mint. .
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Really odd my android box still works like a charm (Minix neo u9-H).
Tengis said:
The Microsoft hate on this forum never disappoints.
Windows 8/10 work great, and everyone that seems to continue to cry about it just remind me of the people that cried about... well... every new release of Windows.
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Hate has nothing to do with it, just realistic expectations. You know from a company that found out that their browser that they been trying to force down people's throat was a waste of 25 years ...
 
Tengis said:
The Microsoft hate on this forum never disappoints.

Windows 8/10 work great, and everyone that seems to continue to cry about it just remind me of the people that cried about... well... every new release of Windows.
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eh... no.


they DONT work great.. they may not be the absolute crap that they were when they were first released but no, they do NOT work great for a very large portion of the market and saying that that there are only two categories of "its great" or "you just hate windows" is the same thing as saying that ALL apple products suck and the only people who say anything good about them are fanboys..... its just not based in any reality.
 
Apple made the transition many years ago - they essentially merged a UNIX-type OS with parts of the MacOS. I don't know all of the details but things like the Finder and user interface survived. They had a compatibility layer that was around for a while (eventually it died). Apple also made the transition from Motorola 68000->PowerPC->Intel x86 (and we might see another transition to their own processors in the next few years, who knows). People can bash on Mac's all they want, but macOS is actually a decent operating system. I am a software developer and use it as my main system at work. I've got Docker, Parallels to run Windows 10 (just what our company uses), Visual Studio, Android Studio, etc. The multiple desktop support and trackpad are great for developers.

If it weren't for games, Id' be running Linux as my main system at home. I'm very comfortable with a nice shell.
The key things Microsoft would need:
1. UX that is close enough to what they already have. Having played around with various Linux distro's, this is totally do-able.
2. Their cash cows need to work great on the platform. For consumers. this would be Microsoft Office. Enterprise would need Windows Server and all of its tools/features.

I've never worked for Microsoft and haven't followed that much, but the Mac versions of Microsoft Office are getting closer to the Windows versions. I'd have to imagine the code base is the same with a few sprinkles of "#ifdef MAC's" tossed in. Assuming they have a mostly common code base, they are probably on-track already.
If they were to use Wine, how well does their software already run?

From a staff/support perspective, this would free up some of their resources to either focus on other areas or reduce staff. I'm not advocating any of these changes - just looking at it with a business hat.

Anyway, I am skeptical despite what I posted above. It would be a large shift for them and you have to consider their enterprise customers. That is where Microsoft makes most of their revenue. Don't piss them off - if they leave, they won't be back.
 
Tengis said:
The Microsoft hate on this forum never disappoints.

Windows 8/10 work great, and everyone that seems to continue to cry about it just remind me of the people that cried about... well... every new release of Windows.
Click to expand...

That depends on your definition of "work great". Obvisouly it is different from my own. Windows 10 is, at best, unstable and inconsistent for me. One minute it works fine, next patch is is busted and rinse and repeat. I skipped the Windows 8 abomination.
 
Point me to a situation where someone asked for my help and I didn't help them. People have asked for my help many times in these forums, and I've helped them each time.

ManofGod said:
Oh good, another *Insert Year* is the year of Linux. :D I could probably take you more seriously if you did not use your offer for help as nothing more than a thinly veiled crusade against Microsoft. Oh, you are one of those haters, by the looks of it.

There is no writing on the wall, Windows is does not have a limited lifespan, in and of itself. People in general are not fed up, just that you would like them to be. Or as I said before, NOPE, there will be no Microsoft Desktop Linux.
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harbingerofdoom said:
eh... no.


they DONT work great.. they may not be the absolute crap that they were when they were first released but no, they do NOT work great for a very large portion of the market and saying that that there are only two categories of "its great" or "you just hate windows" is the same thing as saying that ALL apple products suck and the only people who say anything good about them are fanboys..... its just not based in any reality.
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eh... yes.

They actually do work great and the fact you disagree does not change that fact. Issues are there, as on any OS as I should know, since I have been doing this for 30 years but, they do work great.

Tengis said:
The Microsoft hate on this forum never disappoints.

Windows 8/10 work great, and everyone that seems to continue to cry about it just remind me of the people that cried about... well... every new release of Windows.
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This is not exclusive to these forums, you can see this on just about all the popular ones. It is much easier and more popular to complain and much easier for most, as well.
 
Spidey329 said:
They somewhat have that. You can install Linux BASH and use a lot of the Linux tools. It's in the Windows Features checkbox area.

I switched to that on all of my systems.
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You're talking about the 'Windows subsystem for Linux', not a 'Linux subsystem for Windows'.
 
sadsteve said:
You're talking about the 'Windows subsystem for Linux', not a 'Linux subsystem for Windows'.
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Ah, nope, he meant what he said, not what you claimed he said. :) It is a shame that the only way for Linux Desktop to succeed is for Windows to die, LOL!

Edit: nevermind, it is called the Windows subsystem for Linux after all.
 
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To say "if you did not use your offer for help as nothing more than a thinly veiled crusade against Microsoft" is to say I'm not here to actually help people. I am actually helping people that seek my help, not having it as a thinly veiled crusade against Microsoft.

Spoiler-alert, I work with both Microsoft products and Linux professionally! I'm just trying to help those that aren't up to speed in areas but want to learn more.

Microsoft can do a better job, but they don't, as is evident with build 1809. Am I not allowed to be upset with them for some reason? Am I not allowed to advocate for an alternative?

I make my intent and thoughts clear, and I'm not sure where you get the idea I'm veiling anything. Because I'm really not.

ManofGod said:
Show me where I said that?
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BloodyIron said:
To say "if you did not use your offer for help as nothing more than a thinly veiled crusade against Microsoft" is to say I'm not here to actually help people.
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No, it is not, it is just the way you prefer to interpret what was said. Just because you may help someone does not change what I said one bit. Also, I wonder why the Linux Desktop has never been truly successful and based upon what I hear, it is because of Windows itself. Microsoft is not making a Linux Desktop to replace Windows, not now, not ever. :)

Now, let's see if the Linux Desktop can be truly successful on their own, without being compared to Windows or using Windows software, at all.
 
DukenukemX said:
Android uses the Linux kernel and their updating process doesn't even exist. There's seriously no way to update your Android OS without hacking it or praying for the manufacturer to release an update. I want all forms of corporate greed away from my Linux OS.
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The unlocked Pixel phone ...
 
El Derpo said:
The unlocked Pixel phone ...
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What's this? A prime example of what happens when a company with a jillion dollars decides to support a product until the end of its actual useful life? Nah!
Seriously though, the Nexus and Pixel phones are great if only for that : Google supports them until the point where they're literally too slow to run whatever the flavor of the week version of android is. And at that, third party devs kept releasing android on it until Android got too big to fit in memory and function properly. The Nexus S released with Android 2.3 and was supported by Google until 4.1.2, and by third parties all the way until Marshmallow.
 
The best desktop Windows was actually 8.1. Seriously. All the speed improvements that 10 has over 7 but none of the software as a service and update bullshit. The start menu takes the whole screen, big deal.
 
Pieter3dnow said:
There not really good at anything at this point. I'm just hoping that if they release something they do a better job of supporting it then they do with Windows

You obviously do not know what you are talking about. Torvalds made sure that if it is broken then it is only for a few reasons and not on a whim.


Really odd my android box still works like a charm (Minix neo u9-H).

Hate has nothing to do with it, just realistic expectations. You know from a company that found out that their browser that they been trying to force down people's throat was a waste of 25 years ...
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I only maintain custom Linux distributions for several large corporations for embedded medical devices. Clearly I don’t know what I’m talking about. They love having to rewrite their drivers when updating to a new kernel.

Windows drivers are distributed as binaries and work for years. Good luck with that with Linux. Go from Debian 8 to 9, for example, and you’ll have to recompile modules and then if you’re lucky they will still compile if the kernel changes didn’t break your driver.

The Linux philosophy on this is more ideal in an ideal world, but that’s not what the desktop PC is. This ideological purism has ensured Linux will never be a desktop OS.
 
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chris7191 said:
I only maintain custom Linux distributions for several large corporations for embedded medical devices. Clearly I don’t know what I’m talking about. They love having to rewrite their drivers when updating to a new kernel.

Windows drivers are distributed as binaries and work for years. Good luck with that with Linux. Go from Debian 8 to 9, for example, and you’ll have to recompile modules and then if you’re lucky they will still compile if the kernel changes didn’t break your driver.
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Pieter3dNow is mixing up userland and kernelspace.
The API the kernel exposes to userland is more stable then windows could ever hope to be and breakages on that front are not tolerated at all. Every now and again they do have to break that.

The kernel space API does change and changes a lot. This is the API the kernel uses to talk within itself. Linus has clearly stated it is the linux api and it is free to change as and when it should change as it permit development to continue. Likewise iirc he has stated it was in response to closed-source touching the kernel (something he doesn't like), not so much that it is closed-source BUT because it makes debugging kernel a royal PITA, almost impossible.

Kernel-2.4.x actually presented a stable driver API akin to what windows provided, but it really did limit development as the dev's would want to do stuff or fix stuff but were unable to due to
1) not breaking userland
2) not breaking driver API

That changed with 2.6 and well the type of development being seen is great at a pace that cannot be rivalled

So you really have two choices
1) submit driver for mainlining and then the dev's will deal with API chances
2) manage it your side as you do not want to feed back your drivers but then your are distributing tainted kernel in violation of the GPL *IF* what you say is correct "custom linux distributions"

Plus anyway you should not be updating embedded equipment soo much that you would be exposed to such changes soo often. The regulations, the standards, the procedures surrounding medical have comparable parts in the automotive and the aerospace and damned if they are updated with any significance once a standard has been certified. Something just doesn't add up with what you are writing.
 
Yeah I could see it, strip down a windows kernel to run containers for app compatibility and then break compatibility at the core so you can leave stuff behind. It’s basically the modern version of what they did before with going from DOS and then merging the consumer and commercial os’s post ME

Increasingly applications are web based anyway and they’ve been pretty good at extending .net support out so given they’ve had almost 20 years not being able to sort out a new file system plus a whole litany of issues and outrageous costs attached to maintaining compatibility, yeah makes sense.

Docker and the like already have video card direct access so even games, arguably one of the harder use cases because of direct x, are actually probably easier under a compatibility layer model as they are largely modal so just farming out the gpu to them and running direct x, done. Ceases to be a problem after a few years with the ‘new’ way as games are short lifecycle and will move, the same way as they moved off DOS and no one cared after a while.


Plus it will help them better compete with AWS, azure are still seen as the “windows” answer and companies are spending enormous sums of money to move their entire businesses away from server centric technology stacks.

I’ll file this under plausible even if the article is trash
 
Tengis said:
The Microsoft hate on this forum never disappoints.

Windows 8/10 work great, and everyone that seems to continue to cry about it just remind me of the people that cried about... well... every new release of Windows.
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Windows 8 was a dissaster and Windows 10 is 1 step forward and 10 steps backwards. Windows Store sucks, Windows update really sucks, Windows file sharing sucks. They removed F8 safe mode in Windows 10, their security is a joke when anyone with a USB stick can reset the password. Now they do bi-annual system updates which apparently can erase your files.



El Derpo said:
The unlocked Pixel phone ...
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Yea, unlocked as in you're given the privilege to install a custom rom on your phone. When was the last time you bought a motherboard that had an unlocked UEFI? None, only laptops and Macbooks have a locked UEFI that prevents people from installing what they want. Unlocked devices should be a requirement not something we should be grateful for.
 
naib said:
Pieter3dNow is mixing up userland and kernelspace.
The API the kernel exposes to userland is more stable then windows could ever hope to be and breakages on that front are not tolerated at all. Every now and again they do have to break that.

The kernel space API does change and changes a lot. This is the API the kernel uses to talk within itself. Linus has clearly stated it is the linux api and it is free to change as and when it should change as it permit development to continue. Likewise iirc he has stated it was in response to closed-source touching the kernel (something he doesn't like), not so much that it is closed-source BUT because it makes debugging kernel a royal PITA, almost impossible.

Kernel-2.4.x actually presented a stable driver API akin to what windows provided, but it really did limit development as the dev's would want to do stuff or fix stuff but were unable to due to
1) not breaking userland
2) not breaking driver API

That changed with 2.6 and well the type of development being seen is great at a pace that cannot be rivalled

So you really have two choices
1) submit driver for mainlining and then the dev's will deal with API chances
2) manage it your side as you do not want to feed back your drivers but then your are distributing tainted kernel in violation of the GPL *IF* what you say is correct "custom linux distributions"

Plus anyway you should not be updating embedded equipment soo much that you would be exposed to such changes soo often. The regulations, the standards, the procedures surrounding medical have comparable parts in the automotive and the aerospace and damned if they are updated with any significance once a standard has been certified. Something just doesn't add up with what you are writing.
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It’s possible to have an entire line of products at multiple stages of development, you know. A lot of the changes are pre FDA submission. Some devices take several years of development before they hit the market.

Their teams and their lawyers decide how to comply with the GPL. Some of this stuff is for R&D internally only.
 
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