Every Beijing Resident Will Have a Social Credit Score by 2020

AlphaAtlas

AlphaAtlas

[H]ard|Gawd
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In 2016, we reported that China was working on a "social credit score" system like something straight out of a dystopian novel. As it turns out, the Chinese weren't just blowing smoke, and have plans to implement it. According to a report posted by the Chinese government, which Bloomberg spotted, every one of the 22 million people living in Beijing will be judged by 2020.

Those with better so-called social credit will get "green channel" benefits while those who violate laws will find life more difficult. The Beijing project will improve blacklist systems so that those deemed untrustworthy will be "unable to move even a single step," according to the government's plan. Xinhua reported on the proposal Tuesday, while the report posted on the municipal government's website is dated July 18. China has long experimented with systems that grade its citizens, rewarding good behavior with streamlined services while punishing bad actions with restrictions and penalties. Critics say such moves are fraught with risks and could lead to systems that reduce humans to little more than a report card.
 
Hmm...

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Yup. Surprisingly, this does not seem to bother the Chinese I've discussed this with. It seemingly bothers me more than them. perhaps due to differences in culture.
Everybody has a similar opinion and that is whatever the gov't does, there is always a way around it. And that really is true for the most part here. A married couple can only own X number of properties...and countless people get fake divorces.

They'll figure out which metrics are being used and find ways to game the system. You'll see people buying diapers (for example) when they don't have kids. I can almost promise you that there will be companies/services processing fake purchases (purchase/refund without anything being shipped or however) for whatever items increase your score shortly after this goes live. If visiting certain sites boost your score, there will be apps that cycle through them. Purchases that may negatively impact your score to any great degree will have people offering services to make the purchases through them instead for a fee. I bet the number of business will explode, though they won't be real. They'll be used simply to make online purchases.

Long story short, I have no real idea what metrics are being used but there will be ways around it.
As usual, the only people who get really screwed are the ones who can least afford it. It's progress!!1!!
 
those who violate laws will find life more difficult. The Beijing project will improve blacklist systems so that those deemed untrustworthy will be "unable to move even a single step," according to the government's plan.
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Ahh yes, the "kick them while they are down" approach to social welfare.

There's a Black Mirror episode which treads close to this. I think it was Season 3 and it was based around social media, but it applies here. Because of the social clout of being in the "good group," people get more and more desperate to stay out of the lower group. It changes their weighting of simple events and how they react. Instead of a simple speeding ticket ruining your night, it now becomes a decision to double down and do something extraordinarily stupid to try and get away as the alternative of dropping below the threshold is viewed as far worse.

I think we do a lot of that in America with how we treat people with criminal records (essentially, the system encourages people to take the view that once you're in, you might as well stay in, or stay on that side).
 
Wouldn't it just be easier to execute the bad citizens? Then you'd have more resources for everyone left and wouldn't have to build this system for tracking just discovery. /S
 
I mean I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the credit rating system in the US is no better, your boiled down to a number and certain situations that may or may not be a true representation of how dependable you are paying back a loan, I have personally been in situations where making 6 figures they won't hand you a loan, because your not in debt enough and don't use your credit much even though you have had a perfect record at paying back loans, but there are those that are up to their eyes in debt at the same salary living beyond their means yet will get handed loans on a silver platter that they even state they cant afford...………. the problem with the credit rating system is they hold you ransom, "If(Banks) we aren't making money off you at all times, we won't give you rating to get a loan with a decent interest rate"...………. Who decided that was a good fair system?
 
No credit or social rating system here i am aware of, but i have had problems making smaller loans in the bank, but when i had a house and huge debt to the bank it was no problem borrowing even more money, but no debt and a steady pay check seem to be a issue.
We do have a register for people defaulting on their debt, and if you are on there you can not borrow more for good reasons, needless to say i am not in there as payment of dept to me are a matter of honor.

Danes are one of the most logged countries in the world, so if you want to do a study into something long term, then here is a good place to rummage thru the archives.
And most scary of all, protection of all that info on Danes are pretty inept, a few years ago 2 DVDs with un-encrypted health info on one helluva lot Danes was Delivered to the Chinese embassy, which also say a little about the state of our postal service.

Personally i do not like gooberment knowing too much as many kinds of info are sort of a weapon in this day and age, and gooberment should not hold a weapon on its own citizens, cuz that is called a dictatorship.
 
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1Nocturnal101 said:
I mean I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the credit rating system in the US is no better, your boiled down to a number and certain situations that may or may not be a true representation of how dependable you are paying back a loan, I have personally been in situations where making 6 figures they won't hand you a loan, because your not in debt enough and don't use your credit much even though you have had a perfect record at paying back loans, but there are those that are up to their eyes in debt at the same salary living beyond their means yet will get handed loans on a silver platter that they even state they cant afford...………. the problem with the credit rating system is they hold you ransom, "If(Banks) we aren't making money off you at all times, we won't give you rating to get a loan with a decent interest rate"...………. Who decided that was a good fair system?
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This is true. Also places will not hire you if you have a bad score.
 
1Nocturnal101 said:
I mean I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the credit rating system in the US is no better, your boiled down to a number and certain situations that may or may not be a true representation of how dependable you are paying back a loan, I have personally been in situations where making 6 figures they won't hand you a loan, because your not in debt enough and don't use your credit much even though you have had a perfect record at paying back loans, but there are those that are up to their eyes in debt at the same salary living beyond their means yet will get handed loans on a silver platter that they even state they cant afford...………. the problem with the credit rating system is they hold you ransom, "If(Banks) we aren't making money off you at all times, we won't give you rating to get a loan with a decent interest rate"...………. Who decided that was a good fair system?
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Yes, this drives me nuts. It's the only reason I have a credit card. My credit rating was always stuck in the 600s until I started running a consistent (manageable) debt of around $1,000 on the card and my credit score shot up to over 700 in a few months.
 
Armenius said:
Yes, this drives me nuts. It's the only reason I have a credit card. My credit rating was always stuck in the 600s until I started running a consistent (manageable) debt of around $1,000 on the card and my credit score shot up to over 700 in a few months.
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yep. but thats what a credit score is.. a history/ranking of you having debt. if you dont have any.. then you have a crap score. got to play the game to win :sneaky:
 
You can be sure that only the "right" people will have high scores. And people out of favor with the current government will have low scores, no matter what they do. In other words, it will be corrupt from the inception.
 
katanaD said:
yep. but thats what a credit score is.. a history/ranking of you having debt. if you dont have any.. then you have a crap score. got to play the game to win :sneaky:
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While I hate to play Devil's advocate (not really). The whole point of credit scores is to determine how much debt you can deal with, whether it's a home loan, car loan, or the ability to pay off a 2 year contract terms on a cell phone. How is anyone supposed to know how you handle debt if you never had debt? I mean look at what some young people do if they get access to a credit card "oh shit, free money!!! *swipe swipe swipe*" then when the bill comes.... "fuuuuuuuuu"
 
Its far easier for a controlling government to trick the populace into grading themselves then pay for a massive network of spies that are prone to bribery. Further, the scoring criteria will change depending on desired government goals. Too much litter on streets? Bonus points for picking up trash. Could even go as far as awarding bonus points for women scoring 8 or higher on some scale and taking points from those that score lower.

Feature creep can be a pain. In the US, your FICO score not only determines your creditworthiness, it also influences your home and auto insurance rates because the insurance companies claim there is some link between low FICO and higher rates of claims.
 
Now they just need to make it so you need X amount of credit to go into a different part of the country.
This system is more scary cause it watches you as well. So if you j-walk it'll hurt your credit
 
Laowai said:
Yup. Surprisingly, this does not seem to bother the Chinese I've discussed this with. It seemingly bothers me more than them. perhaps due to differences in culture.
...
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I worked with two Chinese guys, both were survivors of the Tienanmen square thing.

One had his pHd, and was on the "Approved" list, he lost privileges, was sent for "reeducation for 6 months.

The other was a Student, and was tortured, beaten with rubber hoses full of sand so badly he still limped 20+ years later.

He carried himself like a beaten dog does, and it still pisses me off when I think of it. (makes me cry, actually, and I didn't cry when my parents died, they lived good lives)

After being tortured for a year, he was sentenced to reeducation for three years, before a christian group helped him escape to Canada.

The US denies that kind of stuff happens in China, so won't give asylum.

He heard me express my opinion on the US's use of torture, and told me about his experiences; he said at the time that his wife didn't even know.


I guess I'm getting banned again, see y'all. :(
 
1Nocturnal101 said:
I mean I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the credit rating system in the US is no better, your boiled down to a number and certain situations that may or may not be a true representation of how dependable you are paying back a loan, I have personally been in situations where making 6 figures they won't hand you a loan, because your not in debt enough and don't use your credit much even though you have had a perfect record at paying back loans, but there are those that are up to their eyes in debt at the same salary living beyond their means yet will get handed loans on a silver platter that they even state they cant afford...………. the problem with the credit rating system is they hold you ransom, "If(Banks) we aren't making money off you at all times, we won't give you rating to get a loan with a decent interest rate"...………. Who decided that was a good fair system?
Click to expand...

I've never run into anything like that.

I usually have little/no debt, other than the current credit card bills (always paid in full each month).
Only 1 car loan in the past 10 years, only because it was 0% for 5 years.

Yet, I have an extremely high credit rating, and constantly get mail/email offers from the bank for cheap car loans, other credit lines, and new credit card offers.
 
nutzo said:
I've never run into anything like that.

I usually have little/no debt, other than the current credit card bills (always paid in full each month).
Only 1 car loan in the past 10 years, only because it was 0% for 5 years.

Yet, I have an extremely high credit rating, and constantly get mail/email offers from the bank for cheap car loans, other credit lines, and new credit card offers.
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The credit cards are your debt, just because you don't pay interest on them because you pay them off in full does not mean they are any less debt than ones that don't get paid off on time.
 
Armenius said:
Yes, this drives me nuts. It's the only reason I have a credit card. My credit rating was always stuck in the 600s until I started running a consistent (manageable) debt of around $1,000 on the card and my credit score shot up to over 700 in a few months.
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That was one of my main issues, but my major issue now is they keep raising the limit on the card every year....on a funny note my father got a credit card offer for a 100k line of credit... There was a point when he got cancer they wouldn't give him a 500$ line of credit, he still holds a grudge against the system for that.
 
This system has so many holes. How do they expect it to work for the betterment of society if ugly people can get high social credit scores?
 
DrBorg said:
I worked with two Chinese guys, both were survivors of the Tienanmen square thing.

One had his pHd, and was on the "Approved" list, he lost privileges, was sent for "reeducation for 6 months.

The other was a Student, and was tortured, beaten with rubber hoses full of sand so badly he still limped 20+ years later.

He carried himself like a beaten dog does, and it still pisses me off when I think of it. (makes me cry, actually, and I didn't cry when my parents died, they lived good lives)

After being tortured for a year, he was sentenced to reeducation for three years, before a christian group helped him escape to Canada.

The US denies that kind of stuff happens in China, so won't give asylum.

He heard me express my opinion on the US's use of torture, and told me about his experiences; he said at the time that his wife didn't even know.


I guess I'm getting banned again, see y'all. :(
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Not sure why you would think you would get banned for this? It's not like the Chinese run HardOCP.
 
Laowai said:
Yup. Surprisingly, this does not seem to bother the Chinese I've discussed this with. It seemingly bothers me more than them. perhaps due to differences in culture.
Everybody has a similar opinion and that is whatever the gov't does, there is always a way around it. And that really is true for the most part here. A married couple can only own X number of properties...and countless people get fake divorces.

They'll figure out which metrics are being used and find ways to game the system. You'll see people buying diapers (for example) when they don't have kids. I can almost promise you that there will be companies/services processing fake purchases (purchase/refund without anything being shipped or however) for whatever items increase your score shortly after this goes live. If visiting certain sites boost your score, there will be apps that cycle through them. Purchases that may negatively impact your score to any great degree will have people offering services to make the purchases through them instead for a fee. I bet the number of business will explode, though they won't be real. They'll be used simply to make online purchases.

Long story short, I have no real idea what metrics are being used but there will be ways around it.
As usual, the only people who get really screwed are the ones who can least afford it. It's progress!!1!!
Click to expand...
Why should it bother most people? This system literally rewards those who behave and punished those who don’t. It is pure government enforced karma. Almost everybody believes they are well behaved so why would they have a problem with it.
 
If that happened here, I'd be waiting in line at the soup kitchen....

Spooky stuff but in my opinion it sounds pretty fair.

-= Expunged record. Can still vote & carry. =-
 
1Nocturnal101 said:
I mean I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the credit rating system in the US is no better, your boiled down to a number and certain situations that may or may not be a true representation of how dependable you are paying back a loan, I have personally been in situations where making 6 figures they won't hand you a loan, because your not in debt enough and don't use your credit much even though you have had a perfect record at paying back loans, but there are those that are up to their eyes in debt at the same salary living beyond their means yet will get handed loans on a silver platter that they even state they cant afford...………. the problem with the credit rating system is they hold you ransom, "If(Banks) we aren't making money off you at all times, we won't give you rating to get a loan with a decent interest rate"...………. Who decided that was a good fair system?
Click to expand...


I don't know ...... I just don't get loans and don't need their money, I make my own.

Seriously, people told me I couldn't save and buy a home, I own two without mortgage.

It's not surprising, people can be wrong.
 
horrorshow said:
If that happened here, I'd be waiting in line at the soup kitchen....

Spooky stuff but in my opinion it sounds pretty fair.

-= Expunged record. Can still vote & carry. =-
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Besides between credit scores, Twitter, Facebook, government and police records is it much better here. When I look to hire the HR group we use can dig up so much info on anybody they can generally tell me their preferred beverages and favourite flowers and most preferred sports. One of them spent 2 weeks trolling one of my applicants by camping him in both EvE and WoW just to see how he acted under pressure.

They sent me the chat log, we did not hire him.
 
Laowai said:
Yup. Surprisingly, this does not seem to bother the Chinese I've discussed this with. It seemingly bothers me more than them. perhaps due to differences in culture.
Click to expand...

With the exception of only one rational dude with the glasses, you're absolutely right.

 
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Lakados said:
Besides between credit scores, Twitter, Facebook, government and police records is it much better here.
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Yes, it is SO much better.

My credit score is awesome.

I don't use social media.

So yeah.... 'merica
 
horrorshow said:
Yes, it is SO much better.

My credit score is awesome.

I don't use social media.

So yeah.... 'merica
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That actually counts against you, if Banks or HR firms, and even some government services can’t find you on social media it counts against you. Three of the HR agencies we use won’t even pass your applications forward if they can’t locate you on social media. And Facebook and Google both offer services where they can piece you together based only on your address and the activities of those around you. At this point the holes you leave behind are fairly accurately filled in by the data everybody else tracks on you.
 
Lakados said:
That actually counts against you, if Banks or HR firms, and even some government services can’t find you on social media it counts against you. Three of the HR agencies we use won’t even pass your applications forward if they can’t locate you on social media. And Facebook and Google both offer services where they can piece you together based only on your address and the activities of those around you. At this point the holes you leave behind are fairly accurately filled in by the data everybody else tracks on you.
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giphy.gif


Glad I work for an independent outfit.

(got family friends at the bank)

Keep the tin-foil. I'm good.
 
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well this system sounds great for getting rid of dissidents, no housing food or jobs for those with a low score :banghead:
 
"Critics say such moves are fraught with risks and could lead to systems that reduce humans to little more than a report card."

Chinese "citizens" are already assigned an arbitrary value based on the social/economic strata they are born into. From there it's all about what favor you can curry from higher ups to even get an opportunity to advance yourself. It has been this way for thousands of years, this is just the same system refined for the 21st century. I could see some thinking this is an improvement, as it gives the impression of removing human pettiness from the equation. That's crap of course, but perception is powerful.

And comments on gaming the system are on point. It's hard to describe just how institutionalized the gray/black market is in China, where it's almost a civic duty to get a little over on the man, while appearing to be conforming. Again, it's been this way for thousands of years.

The fact that China was ever on the human rights council pretty much sums up the UN.
 
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